Lack of longevity argument doesn’t wash anymore, was world class before he got to Liverpool and still is
Virgil van Dijk | Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) review both the Everton and Bodø/Glimt victories at Old Trafford. Listen to the guys discuss 2 wins and 7 goals in the last week, analyse of the Amorim formation, focus on Amad and how he is playing, and also take a look at Hojlund, Rashford & Zirkzee – who starts v Arsenal?
He joins the illustrious company of other CB greats, such as Gabriel, Dawson, Senesi, Ben Davies and Dan Burn, who have successfully bullied and shut down Haaland as of late.
But I do think he belongs among the greats of the PL now. It’s something that is hard to argue against anymore. To come back from such an injury and get to this peak again cements it.
That could have very well derailed him, and it’s a credit to him that it hasn’t. I begrudgingly accept his greatness.
But I do think he belongs among the greats of the PL now. It’s something that is hard to argue against anymore. To come back from such an injury and get to this peak again cements it.
That could have very well derailed him, and it’s a credit to him that it hasn’t. I begrudgingly accept his greatness.
Good grief, what an absolute gobshite Carragher is. Van Dijk isn’t even remotely the best ever Premier League centre-back and shouldn’t even be in the consideration for it.
Currently has Van Dijk first (of course) and John Stones joint second greatest defender in PL history. Jaap Stam dead last.
Can only assume the average age of voters is about 12.
City and Liverpool have been the big rivals for about the last decade. City have 6 titles to Liverpool's 1 (soon to be 2, admittedly) and City have conceded less goals in the league in 6 of the 8 years Van Dijk has been at Liverpool, but he's portrayed as the all conquering colossus.
He's a great defender but not the best.
He's a great defender but not the best.
Yup. Best in the league right now? Sure, I’d agree with that. Best ever? Absolutely no fecking way.
And John Stones as the second best ever
there is no way anybody who is older than about 25 can seriously believe that.I'm not sure why stones is on the list.Currently has Van Dijk first (of course) and John Stones joint second greatest defender in PL history. Jaap Stam dead last.
Can only assume the average age of voters is about 12.
Exactly. He shouldn’t even be on there.
He is.
All those that take such issue with VVD being in the conversation for best CB in PL history - please explain why.
I'm not saying he is definitively the best like Carragher is (which is nonsense and smacks of bias), but the general dismissal of him on this forum also just comes across as very obvious bias with him being a Liverpool player.
He's clearly world-class still and has been for 7-8 years now, has everything you would want in a modern CB and on top of that has team honours, individual awards and a decent amount of longevity to boot (considering Jaap Stam is often put in the conversation here and he had barely 3 seasons in the PL...)
I'm not saying he is definitively the best like Carragher is (which is nonsense and smacks of bias), but the general dismissal of him on this forum also just comes across as very obvious bias with him being a Liverpool player.
He's clearly world-class still and has been for 7-8 years now, has everything you would want in a modern CB and on top of that has team honours, individual awards and a decent amount of longevity to boot (considering Jaap Stam is often put in the conversation here and he had barely 3 seasons in the PL...)
He doesn’t have the team honours his counterparts in the arguement do.
He also does not have the length of top class performance they do either.
All of Terry, Rio, Adams, etc have multiple PL titles. None were nobody at 25 years old.
VVD is an excellent CB but hes not in their class the same way Mbappe isn’t in the class of Henry. It just is what it is mate
For what its worth I think hes the best CB in the league today. We didnt call Martinez the best CB in the world when he locked up Haaland in the FA cup final.
VVD also didnt play against Shearer, Henry, Drogba, Cole, Yorke, Owen, Fowler etc. Not to mention the level of strikers accross Europe at the time.
Haaland is great though but the quality in my personal opinion of player today in the PL is of a lower standard than it used to be. Just my opinion though
Its also worth noting that the evolution of the game has meant team shape has made defending a bit easier today. Couple that with the level of attackers today I think its easy to make the case that whilst an excellent player, he isnt on the level of greatest ever in the PL
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What does this matter exactly? He's been one of the best CB's in the world since then and we're 7/8 years down the line. Didn't Rio join United at 24?
This obsession with team success is ridiculous also given this often has no relevance towards individual player quality. Now I could understand if he hadn't won anything at Liverpool, but the fact is he's won every major honour with them at least once. By your logic that makes Gary Pallister a greater PL defender than Van Dijk given he was playing for United regularly before 25 and has more titles than him.
The highest points total United achieved winning the league with Rio in the side was 90 - Liverpool have twice finished on higher points than this and yet come 2nd simply due to the dominance of City.
Rio was obviously a superb player and contributed greatly to United's success but joined a team that had already been dominated the PL before him and had the greatest manager in football history at the helm.
For me VVD is the best and most complete in terms of attributes and ability.
But he was a late bloomer, so Terry has better team accomplishments and more trophies. As an individual, VVD is better.
If I was assembling a PL all time 11 for a one off game/season, VVD would be the first CB.
Every defensive partner looks class next to VVD. Whether it's Matip, Konate, Gomez or Quansah. In a sport which is more and more attacker dominated with each passing year, VVD has insane influence on his team as a defender.
Ideally, you want your GK and CB to have a big personality and presence. VVD definitely has that aura and presence about him.
But he was a late bloomer, so Terry has better team accomplishments and more trophies. As an individual, VVD is better.
If I was assembling a PL all time 11 for a one off game/season, VVD would be the first CB.
Every defensive partner looks class next to VVD. Whether it's Matip, Konate, Gomez or Quansah. In a sport which is more and more attacker dominated with each passing year, VVD has insane influence on his team as a defender.
Ideally, you want your GK and CB to have a big personality and presence. VVD definitely has that aura and presence about him.
Rio was a quality CB playing UCL football before joining United.
By the way it was you who mentioned team honours in your post.
The main points of my post were for reference
1. Longevity other players were considered one of the best in the league for most of the PL career and their actual careers not half
2. Most played against better strikers both in the PL and in European competiton.
At the end of the day its just an opinion and nothing to get upset about. I think VVD is an excellent player
If we had strikers like Shearer, Henry, Fowler, Cole, Defoe, R9, Batistuta, Raul, David Villa etc or at least a crop on their level then fine.
We don’t and so obviously thats a component when assessing the quality of a player. Thats not even talking about how midfield is alot more compact today and teams defend more as a team too
If you think hes up there thats ok, I’m not going to write a long post telling you, you shouldn’t have your opinion
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I don’t think it’s outlandish. For me, Rio is the best in the PL and has all the attributes, longevity, honours, to back it up.
Then there is Van Dijk, Vidic, Stam, Kompany, and Terry who all have legit claims to be second best, and it comes down to what people value in defenders. I’d lean towards one of Stam, Kompany, or Van Dijk for my second CB in a back four formation, over Vidic and Terry.
Then there is Van Dijk, Vidic, Stam, Kompany, and Terry who all have legit claims to be second best, and it comes down to what people value in defenders. I’d lean towards one of Stam, Kompany, or Van Dijk for my second CB in a back four formation, over Vidic and Terry.
Top posts mate, totally agree with all your points. Especially regarding the calibre of strikers he's facing and team/ midfield composition and protection of CBs.
There is just as much diminishing of achievements of the past in a bid to make football seem bigger and better than ever.
The fact is, many of his rivals for the very top positions have achieved far more and had more top quality seasons at the very highest level. They were absolutely quality players and have the very long and very successful careers to show for it.
You can put van Dijk up there in a debate, but to say he is way ahead is just lazy and stupid.
The fact is, many of his rivals for the very top positions have achieved far more and had more top quality seasons at the very highest level. They were absolutely quality players and have the very long and very successful careers to show for it.
You can put van Dijk up there in a debate, but to say he is way ahead is just lazy and stupid.
Stam shouldnt even be in the conversation. Quality player does not have the PL body of work
Team achievements don't matter.
Van Dijk has at least 4 seasons of GOAT level performances by now.
You are underrating today's forwards (and of the last 8+ years) and overrating players of the past. Van Dijk's played against Messi, Neymar, Suárez, Lewandowski, Kane, Son, Mbappé, Agüero, Sánchez, Ibrahimovic, Hazard, Sterling, Mahrez, Haaland, Bruno, Ronaldo, Palmer, etc.
Also, how is defending easier today? Defenses have to play a high line, press much more, play out from their own penalty area, etc.
He's also played in a much more difficult era than Rio, Vidic, Terry, and the others.
It’s a silly argument to make the main basis of who a better player based around who won the most awards? If that’s the case then the likes of R9 and Maradona wouldn’t be heralded as they are, at the time of even when they were playing they’re were more decorated stars let alone after.
R9 never won a European cup and neither did Maradona.
What’s better is to actually judge their performances and attributes, simple fact is whatever argument people want to use against VVD not winning enough, as an individual his peak seasons are better than nearly every Cb we’ve seen in this league hence why he finished 2nd just points behind Messi to win the Ballon D’or.
You look at his attributes and what doesn’t he have? He’s one of the most dominant cbs aerially, he’s as fast and as strong as any CB we’ve seen in the league and he can play football. As good as the likes of Vidic Terry and Ferdinand were they all had weaknesses, Vidic didn’t have outstanding pace and wasn’t outstanding on the ball, Terry didn’t have pace, Ferdinand had all those attributes but wasn’t special in the air.
If we’re talking who have been the most complete CBs of the last 30 years, that is Nesta Silva and VVD, they all ticked all the boxes and they could all play in any system you put them in, high line, camped round the box and etc.
R9 never won a European cup and neither did Maradona.
What’s better is to actually judge their performances and attributes, simple fact is whatever argument people want to use against VVD not winning enough, as an individual his peak seasons are better than nearly every Cb we’ve seen in this league hence why he finished 2nd just points behind Messi to win the Ballon D’or.
You look at his attributes and what doesn’t he have? He’s one of the most dominant cbs aerially, he’s as fast and as strong as any CB we’ve seen in the league and he can play football. As good as the likes of Vidic Terry and Ferdinand were they all had weaknesses, Vidic didn’t have outstanding pace and wasn’t outstanding on the ball, Terry didn’t have pace, Ferdinand had all those attributes but wasn’t special in the air.
If we’re talking who have been the most complete CBs of the last 30 years, that is Nesta Silva and VVD, they all ticked all the boxes and they could all play in any system you put them in, high line, camped round the box and etc.
Not sure about the longevity argument, only Terry Adams and Ferdinand would be said to have greater longevity, Vidic for example played a similar amount of seasons at the top and less games than VVD in this league.
We have Kane, Mbappe, Benzema, Cristiano, Lewandowski, Son, Suarez, Aguero, Vardy, Haaland who VVD has played against.
Yep saying a player is better than the other because they won more honours is a lazy way to judge things, VVD has had a couple seasons where Liverpool finished with 90+ points and finished second, what does that mean? The the CB in the opposing side is automatically better?
I'd take the Arsenal duo over Van Dijk.
The numbers just don’t back the “at least 4 seasons of GOAT level performance” claim in my opinion (see league stats below)
Season - Goals against - Appearances
18/19 - 22 goals - 38 games
19/20 - 33 goals - 38 games
20/21 - 42 goals - 5 games
21/22 - 26 goals - 34 games
22/23 - 47 goals - 32 games
23/24 - 41 goals - 36 games
Season - Goals against - Appearances
18/19 - 22 goals - 38 games
19/20 - 33 goals - 38 games
20/21 - 42 goals - 5 games
21/22 - 26 goals - 34 games
22/23 - 47 goals - 32 games
23/24 - 41 goals - 36 games
This is a rubbish argument. “A more difficult era”?
The likes of Terry and Ferdinand played against Ronaldo, Rooney, Drogba, Shearer, Henry, Torres, Aguero, Bergkamp, van Nistelrooy, van Persie, Owen, Tevez, Suarez….and that is JUST in the Premier League.
Nowadays, strikers like Solanke and Watkins are getting 19 goal seasons in the PL.
It’s a lot of nonsense to say it’s a more difficult era. The former greats played against far more talented strikers on a weekly basis, and that’s before even talking about the greats of the game they had to play in Europe.
VVD and Salah should grab this chance for a second league winners medal...world class players the both of them!
VVD is a great modern defender but he is not a GOAT defender.
Unless we are pinning this on that Fugazi “dribbled past” stat.
He's the defensive leader for that side and his great Liverpool era hasn’t exactly been a shut out defensively
Unless we are pinning this on that Fugazi “dribbled past” stat.
He's the defensive leader for that side and his great Liverpool era hasn’t exactly been a shut out defensively
I mentioned team honours primarily because it seems to be something that's often brought up in the discussion as if one player can solely be responsible for the number of titles won. My point was A) it's a largely stupid argument given you could swap VVD with Rio and it probably wouldn't change the amount of titles either United or Liverpool ended up winning and B) if it's important criteria in who is the greatest than he has ticked the box and won the league anyway.
Also on your point about strikers - I think I'd argue that the likes of Kane, Aguero, Haaland, Vardy are / were pretty good too... and seeing as you're mentioning other European strikers (presumably all of whom Rio has played against in the CL) then he's also faced Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez, Benzema, Lewandowski, Mbappe etc.
Your argument that this era of CF's is weaker than Rio's doesn't really hold much weight given the list of names I've just reeled off... considering the way that teams focus greater on possession-based football and playing higher defensive lines as well it's arguably harder to play CB than it ever has been.
I'm not gonna get into my 3rd argument about this on its forum. It's a fact that football has evolved and is on the highest level it's ever been on these days. There would be something very wrong with the sport itself if that wasn't the case. As far as I'm concerned, anyone disputing this just lives in denial because of nostalgia.
Just watch a PL game back from 2004. Looks like a glorified friendly compared to a PL game today. Intensity, time on the ball, team structure, tactical level, etc. it's just incomparable to what we see today.
You are objectively wrong. Fitter does not mean better, and the players today have access to the same technology and facilities as their counterparts.
It’s a stupid argument and diminishes everything that comes before. Newer isn’t always better.
I'm objectively right. It's just more efficient on every level and I don't care which era is more entertaining, as that's not the topic of discussion.
It doesn't diminish anything either. The best teams in 10 years' time would be able to beat any team today without much difficulties, unless something goes seriously wrong with football altogether.
Pep won't stay the GOAT manager forever either. There will be someone who revolutionizes football again, like he did in the late 2000s.
Neuer won't be the GOAT GK forever. Van Dijk won't be the GOAT CB forever. We'll probably see a better player than Messi as well, eventually, despite it seeming close to impossible right now. It's the way things are and there's no reason to deny this just because United missed out on being relevant for most of this new era. We'll be the best team again one day and maybe City/Liverpool/Arsenal/Madrid etc. will be in a huge slump then. Also, we already have a GOAT level CB prospect in Yoro.
This is an absolutely bizarre way of looking at football and talent. Pelé and Maradona just couldn’t compete.
Such a strange way of looking at it, but I will accept that is the way you see it and move on
Of course they could. They were the best of their respective eras, and obviously had enough natural talent that they could've become professional footballers if they were born into the current era.
Btw, when you bring up Maradona. Do you think any player could be the best in the world today if they were doing drugs and and drinking alcohol in their playing days, like he was? They'd be spent after 20 minutes in any match. There's too much bias in favour of players of the past when making comparisons. Messi was already better than peak Maradona in 2009, for example. And let's not even bring up 2012 or 2015 Messi. Played at a higher level and performed better even despite that as well. But 15 years later there are still people who'd have the former ahead of him.
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You are putting too much emphasis on physical fitness. Even peak Messi never covered that much ground and won a World Cup while walking for most of the tournament. It wasn’t his physical fitness and intensity that made him the player he was.
There are a lot of very fit and very average players in the PL in 2024.
VVD hasn't led his team to enough seasons with low enough goals conceded stats. I will accept that medals cannot be used as a barometer, but when your a CB - and especially the 'leader' - your defensive line need to have super stats to be consider a great. He hasn't done this consistently enough.
Messi was walking through most games because his coaches knew they had the best player of all time and wanted him to conserve as much energy as he can and stay as far up the pitch at all times as possible. There are several players in today's game who are simply the best attacking players in their teams and receive the same instructions like Messi. Mbappé at PSG, Rashford at United in some seasons, Ronaldo at Madrid, and there are more.
I'm not even debating players' talents, especially from 20-30 years ago. I'm sure Ronaldo Nazario would be putting up 50-60 goal seasons in all comps, if he was 25 years old today and had healthy knees, no matter which league, especially if he was playing for a dominant team. Maradona would also probably be the best player in the world today if he was 25 and actually lived a healthy lifestyle and only knew the modern game. But overall the level of football wasn't what it is today.
Good post
Eras aside, there are few setups that ask more of center backs than Klopps Liverpool.
Constant high line and most attacking full backs in the league. Somewhat compensated for by a compact and combative midfield, but still, so many defensive actions to be made with no support near by and so much of the field behind you to defend.
Lovren, as an example, just couldn't hack that. Excellent defender in a compact low block with less space behind to defend and more proximity to the other defenders. A nightmare in the kind of setup Klopp preferred.
Terry in comparison had an even more compact midfield in front of him, far less attacking fullbacks, sat much deeper and relied greatly on Carvalho to chase down any runs in behind whenever they were pushed up.
Van Dijk would have been fine in Mourinho's Chelsea setup. Terry would be torn apart in a Klopp back four.
Which is why Ferdinand for me is the only center back comparable to Van Dijk.
Constant high line and most attacking full backs in the league. Somewhat compensated for by a compact and combative midfield, but still, so many defensive actions to be made with no support near by and so much of the field behind you to defend.
Lovren, as an example, just couldn't hack that. Excellent defender in a compact low block with less space behind to defend and more proximity to the other defenders. A nightmare in the kind of setup Klopp preferred.
Terry in comparison had an even more compact midfield in front of him, far less attacking fullbacks, sat much deeper and relied greatly on Carvalho to chase down any runs in behind whenever they were pushed up.
Van Dijk would have been fine in Mourinho's Chelsea setup. Terry would be torn apart in a Klopp back four.
Which is why Ferdinand for me is the only center back comparable to Van Dijk.
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