Crazy isn’t it. A player that didnt win the Ballon d’Or and has done nothing internationally had a better top level than one that did win it and was successful at every level.
Virgil van Dijk | Performances
- Thread starter Samid
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Crazy isn’t it. A player that didnt win the Ballon d’Or and has done nothing internationally had a better top level than one that did win it and was successful at every level.
Why is he standing still when the running starts? Why isn't he on the half turn anticipating the ball over the top? Why does he lose ground to the attacker at top speed. Paul McGrath, with no knees, was never caught out like that, when he lost his pace he anticpated and positioned himself better. Alan Hansen for Liverpool was excellent at positioning and anticpation and being on the half turn, making it look easy. VVD and Maguire, not so much.
For match fixing, not for being shite.
The team still had Buffo, Zambrotta, Materazzi, Nesta, Del Piero, Pirlo, Totti, Gattuso, De Rossi, and thats just off the top of my head.
I can give you 3 but take the 2008/09 season for a start, both of them were at that level.
Cannavaro never won the Champions League. He never even won Serie A officially. Plus Nesta was the best Italian defender of his generation, not Cannavaro.
Also Van Dijk finished second in the Ballon d’Or behind Messi in 2019, there was no Messi equivalent in 2006. Van Dijk has played in 3 of the last 5 Champions League finals as a key player for his team. Can’t act as if he hasn’t been successful and Cannavaro is so decorated by comparison. If we want to talk trophies, then surely Sergio Ramos is the example rather than Cannavaro.
Most overrated player to ever grace the PL; absolutely fecking laughable.
Yeah but it was still the worst possible preparation for a world cup. Van Dijk is getting far too overrated by some, and I know some underrate him too to offset this. He is not the greatest Premier defender of all time simply because his longevity and medal collection does not match other players that were easily as good a player as him.
This will hurt Liverpool a fair amount.
They just arent the same without him.
They just arent the same without him.
I wouldn’t say he had less work at all, progressive defending doesn’t mean that he’s not sitting back and not doing anything. Teams sitting back the defenders have to do less I would say, like Chelsea in the 2000s because the team is set up so defensively.
Liverpool could put the full backs up ridiculously high and play on the front foot thanks to Van Dijk and it all fell apart when he got injured a few seasons ago. He was so good that they could leave it all to Van Dijk.
In that case I agree, he had a great season and a decent shout for Balon d'or, but best ever might be doing some a disservice. I still remember Cannavaro dominating the Germany team. They simply dont make em like that anymore.
If VVD could have performed for ten years At the levels he did for a couple, then sure, throw him in the conversation for best ever. His competition DID do it for over a decade. He can rightfully be considered as having the best ever single season as a defender in the PL, though.
He won La Liga back to back, the World Cup and Ballon d’Or?
You could easily put an asterisk next to VVD given the league was won during a broken COVID season at empty stadiums.
It’s not like he wasn’t good before Liverpool though, he was Scottish league team of the season two years he was there and when he played Europe (albeit for an average side) he stood out. Then he was player of the year at Southampton in a season they finished 6th in the league - they finished ahead of Liverpool that season. I take your point about elite football but it’s not like he came good from nowhere, he was good for years. You don’t go for £80 million for no reason.
Pretty much how I see it. That Liverpool team were a very intense, defensively solid unit and VVD had a lot of protection from those in front. Add to that the lack of genuinely great CBs at the time to compare him against, the Liverpool love-in (best PL team of all time, best CB of all time, best attacking RB of all time, best forward line of all time, etc), and his signing coming at a time when Klopp's blueprint had matured and Liverpool finally established themselves.
Drop him in our side 2019-2021 where our midfield offered zero protection and he'd look a very different player, IMO.
Haha I’m a United fan and I hate Liverpool but I’m not putting an asterisk on a season they won 26 of the first 27 games - all with full stadiums then Covid happened, they were winning by about 20 points. ‘you could easily put an asterisk’ give me a break.
You brought up technicalities..
Point was though Cannavaro has a World Cup as the outstanding defender, Van Dijk has a Champions League as the outstanding defender, Cannavaro played 13 seasons in Serie A and won 2 leagues, never played in a Champions League final. He then won 2 leagues at Real Madrid at the end of his career when most people agreed he was well past his best and never replicated his World Cup form.
If trophies is the issue then neither Cannavaro or Van Dijk can compare with Ramos or Pique with several CLs, Euros and World Cup or Varane with a World Cup and several CLs as best centre backs this century.
Van Dijk is definitely in a category of best centre backs this century along with the likes of Nesta, Cannavaro, Ramos, Van Dijk, Thiago Silva, Vidic. Can argue the placing all day but he’s in that level.
Cannavaro winning the Ballon d’Or on a year without Messi seriously featuring doesn’t make him better than Van Dijk who finished second and somewhat harshly behind Messi if Ballon d’Or is your benchmark.
You said he has the best peak of the century didn’t you? Now he’s on par with others? Which are you going with…
He was great, and more than worth the fee and has a great case for being one of the best returns on such a huge investment. But his competition in the best CB ever conversation is just too strong. If you're making an all time world XI, Van dijk shouldnt be anywhere near the discussion for even the 10th choice team.
Yes he had the best peak one-off year this century. But as an overall player/career then he’s on par with the others, there’s no obvious answer as best defender this century.
He’s not had the best peak nor is he on par with the others. He doesn’t have the longevity for the latter for a start.
Who are the 20 centre backs in history better than him then? I agree he’s not all-time XI level, he’s not touching Baresi and Beckenbauer.
He was amazing before Pickford finished him.
Yes, it was short period but he was maybe best CB at the time. If he played for us we would be creaming ourselves just like pool fans.
And now i feel dirty for defending liverpool player.
Yes, it was short period but he was maybe best CB at the time. If he played for us we would be creaming ourselves just like pool fans.
And now i feel dirty for defending liverpool player.
Baresi, Beckenbaur, Matthaus, Rio, Stam, Nesta, Chiellini, Terry, Hierro, Puyol, Koeman, Ramos, Cannavaro, Carragher, Carvalho, Kompany, Pique, Hummels, Silva, Maldini,
Carragher? Even in the same club he‘s a few levels below, I’m sure even he’d admit that.
Only 7 or 8 of them are the same level or better at best.
I don't agree with every name on your list (e.g. Hummels, Carragher) but there are still more that certainly were better due to longevity. VVD really had a fantastic peak but it was quite short. I think VVD peak was better than e.g. Varane, Boateng, Pepe, but overall they had a far better career than VVD.
Nice to see Kompany get some love.
Baresi, Beckenbauer, Maldini, Nesta, Scirea, Chiellini, Cannavaro, Ramos, Puyol, Stam, Vidic, Ferdinand, Terry, Moore, Passarella, Thuram, Bergomi, Santamaria, Sammer, Figueroa
I don’t know why people are reading too much into things, he had one of the best peaks of any CB of the last 20 years, the peak would have still been ongoing onto he got a career threatening injury via Pickford and he hasn’t been the same since, that’s really all.
Big injuries can affect players.
Big injuries can affect players.
You can flip the argument the likes of Terry played closer to their 18 yard box and still had the protection of Makelele Essien Geremi Mikel or whoever In front of them, I don’t think it’s easier for defenders to play high line, especially in yesteryear is partly the reason the likes of Baresi were heralded to GOAT levels.
Are we talking career or ability? Because if we’re talking peak Puyol certainly didn’t reach the heights of VVD, to be honest I think the only defenders I would put in the conversation are those like Baresi Nesta Ferdinand Stam who had pace could operate in a high line and had a great footballing ability too, the others aren’t as well rounded overall.
Also even someone like Stam he never had a longer peak than VVD.
Fair play, it’s a far better list than the previous one, but I think Van Dijk is the equal of some of those modern players at least, then it’s more difficult to compare him to players of similar ability from 30-40 years ago.
The other thing is Van Dijk is only 31, not finished yet. He’s not in good form this season but for all we know he could have a great Euro 2024/World Cup 2026 as a veteran for Netherlands if he adapts to losing some pace. Or winning a few leagues in Serie A when he’s in his late 30s. Thiago Silva, Pepe and Ramos are still going in the CL knockouts. I guess we’ll see in 5 years.
Equal to which? All of them modern players were better.
Cannavaro, Terry, Stam, Puyol, Ferdinand, Vidic, Chiellini.
All of them were better, and better for longer.What makes Stam so better for example? He had 3 great years at United, I’m not sure about his time in Lazio and Milan was he playing at the same level?
It's just my list, And I don't think calling him one of the top 25 centre-backs of all time is doing him any sort of disservice. So many players in my list had to defend way more often than VVD too, as they never had a goalkeeper as good off his line as Allison (who for my money, is one of the best to ever play the sweeper keeper role).
I think the threat of liverpools attack and the combativeness of their midfield made VVD job easier. Of course, he was an essential clog of their side, but now that their attack is less potent and the midfield press has dropped dramatically, we are seeing him have to defend way more and it hasn't really been pretty.
VVD isn’t as good as 2019 because he suffered an injury that put him out for year, he’s not as fast not as sharp and can’t turn as quick, there’s no need to shape it as that’s how he was before, it would be like saying R9 we saw at Madrid was the same one as Inter or Del Piero was the same as his injury after 98, these players all came back to a good level because of their talent but anyone who saw them before would know it wasn’t at the same level they were before their major injuries.
Most of your list didn’t play in a super a high line either so it’s horses for courses , players who have played in the lines City Liverpool and the likes have in the last few years have probably had to contend with more 1 on 1 defending that they would have in compact systems in the past.
Maybe but his performance was starting to dip well before his injury, his last season was actually better than that period.