[justsomebloke]

Yeah I can put up with him being a backup to a starter CB (number 3 as you call it) but certain that isn't going to happen as he has Ole's full trust and Bailly only gets a look in when he's either injured or it's a domestic cup game or Europa League tie. Definitely not a fan of this quiet shutting down method one bit because makes our defending look very weak indeed and is the main reason we keep on getting done at set pieces time and time again this season.

I'm assuming a starter CB relegating Lindelof to third choice would be a new CB brought in, not Bailly. I don't think Bailly has been either consistent enough or healthy enough to warrant serious hopes of him developing into our regular starter. In other words, what I'm arguing here is that ideally we need a transfer upgrade on this position.

Surely the main reason we keep getting done in at setpieces is that we don't defend set pieces well. Also, there's a fairly crucial distinction between bad defending and making our defending look weak, whatever that means.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I really don't think Lindelof is as bad as a lot of posters here make out. To suggest he's not good enough for the PL and is the sort of defender you used to get for 5 mill is ridiculous, in my view. He's a solid player, a cultured defender. He's not a star and probably would be better suited to being the No 3 man than a starting XI fixture, but I don't think he's a player that represents a critical weak point in the team. He is very rarely less than adequate, and sometimes more than that. We could use an upgrade yes, but that's also about the need to take care of the things Maguire doesn't do well, so that he can play within his limitations.

It's easy to like watching Bailly better - he's got the speed, he plays with flair and distinctiveness and determination, makes dramatic tackles. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player. I think A-Man's got a good point about Lindelofs preference for shutting down rather than aggressively confronting attackers. It's not fun to watch, but it can be a very effective approach. It's also in fact an approach that the United defence as a whole seems to have, apart from AWB. They tend to try to maintain shape and stay in control of the situation, which makes them look under pressure a lot, but actually generally works quite well.

It can also be utterly useless too.

Against attackers that make poor decisions then yes waiting for them to slip up and take a heavy touch or misplace a pass - it works.

Against better attackers who will make the right decision then they'll excel under less pressure.

The main issue for me is Lindelof is just not good enough 1v1. To play for United who want to be on the front foot regularly you're going to have the fullbacks high up the pitch and you're isolated against another attacker.

He isn't quite quick enough, he isn't quite strong enough and he isn't aggressive. When we get counter attacked he usually just ends up running away back into position instead of stopping it at source.

This for me is where Bailly excels and makes the biggest difference - but you can't use any stats to back that up, which is why stats in football will never truly all the time.

He just has too many weaknesses that over shadow what he is good at IMO.

 

[justsomebloke]

It can also be utterly useless too.

Against attackers that make poor decisions then yes waiting for them to slip up and take a heavy touch or misplace a pass - it works.

Against better attackers who will make the right decision then they'll excel under less pressure.

The main issue for me is Lindelof is just not good enough 1v1. To play for United who want to be on the front foot regularly you're going to have the fullbacks high up the pitch and you're isolated against another attacker.

He isn't quite quick enough, he isn't quite strong enough and he isn't aggressive. When we get counter attacked he usually just ends up running away back into position instead of stopping it at source.

This for me is where Bailly excels and makes the biggest difference - but you can't use any stats to back that up, which is why stats in football will never truly all the time.

He just has too many weaknesses that over shadow what he is good at IMO.

I would tend to put it differently - he doesn't have any really glaring weaknesses, but he's not overly good at much either, on this level. Just generally adequate really. The sort of player who really needs to bring it together with terrific decision-making if he's going to be a viable elite-level defender.

I think what you write about aggression/stopping at source is way too simplistic. Aggressiveness is a certain way of playing central defence, not simply a skill where you're a better player the more you have of it. It's not the only way. And God protect us from CBs whose first instinct is to attempt to stop counterattacks at source - that is frequently completely the wrong thing to do, if you're back cover.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I would tend to put it differently - he doesn't have any really glaring weaknesses, but he's not overly good at much either, on this level. Just generally adequate really. The sort of player who really needs to bring it together with terrific decision-making if he's going to be a viable elite-level defender.

I think what you write about aggression/stopping at source is way too simplistic. Aggressiveness is a certain way of playing central defence, not simply a skill where you're a better player the more you have of it. It's not the only way. And God protect us from CBs whose first instinct is to attempt to stop counterattacks at source - that is frequently completely the wrong thing to do, if you're back cover.

He clearly does, he is physically limited and gets bullied by strikers who like to play that way, we've seen it so many times before.

Unfortunately being a centre back that doesn't really excel at anything isn't one I want to see at Manchester united.

I can look through teams below us and probably pick a CB out of each club i'd rather than than Lindelof - it feels just like Lingard + Pereira all over again.

 

[justsomebloke]

He clearly does, he is physically limited and gets bullied by strikers who like to play that way, we've seen it so many times before.

Unfortunately being a centre back that doesn't really excel at anything isn't one I want to see at Manchester united.

I can look through teams below us and probably pick a CB out of each club i'd rather than than Lindelof - it feels just like Lingard + Pereira all over again.

I would not compare to Lingard/Pereira, who are obviously inadequate. Lindelof is more "fairly adequate". But I don't dispute that an upgrade would be welcome.

 

[A-man]

In what stat category does his defending for the first goal against City come into? Failed clearance? Failed interception? Failed tackle? Failed header? Or do feck all and hope the player behind me clears the ball while I give a lame attempt and put everyone off their balance?

If you read more carefully you’ll see that this is data and stats for PL so that kind of conceded goal would not fall in to any category. If it had been PL, it would fall in to the category goals conceded.

As for this goal it looked like Lindelof tried to clear it but missed so I guess failed clearance would be fair to describe it.

I know you hate him for some reason, but it’s disrespectful to claim United players don’t give feck all, especially players who play through injury and pain for the club and who are part of the team that has taken us back to the top of PL again.

 

[A-man]

It can also be utterly useless too.

Against attackers that make poor decisions then yes waiting for them to slip up and take a heavy touch or misplace a pass - it works.

Against better attackers who will make the right decision then they'll excel under less pressure.

The main issue for me is Lindelof is just not good enough 1v1. To play for United who want to be on the front foot regularly you're going to have the fullbacks high up the pitch and you're isolated against another attacker.

He isn't quite quick enough, he isn't quite strong enough and he isn't aggressive. When we get counter attacked he usually just ends up running away back into position instead of stopping it at source.

This for me is where Bailly excels and makes the biggest difference - but you can't use any stats to back that up, which is why stats in football will never truly all the time.

He just has too many weaknesses that over shadow what he is good at IMO.

.
1. Lindelof is not weak against the best forwards- they don’t score often against us when he plays. He is, like the rest of the team, poor at setpieces. He is good at defending open play.
2. The point with having FB high up would be to score more goals. We have scored much more goals with Lindelof/Maguire than with Bailly/ Maguire. With Lindelof we have scored 2.25 goals per match which is more than any other team in the league.

I would not compare to Lingard/Pereira, who are obviously inadequate. Lindelof is more "fairly adequate". But I don't dispute that an upgrade would be welcome.

I showed some “objective ratings” from English papers. This was only from his last three matches but Lindelof got pretty high average ratings. I think it is more a “fan thing” to prefer defenders who play physical and aggressive, but people who are used to analyse football can see that there is also value of more quite ways of defending. Otherwise Lindelof wouldn’t get so much higher ratings than Bailly.

 

[Mickson]

.
1. Lindelof is not weak against the best forwards- they don’t score often against us when he plays. He is, like the rest of the team, poor at setpieces. He is good at defending open play.
2. The point with having FB high up would be to score more goals. We have scored much more goals with Lindelof/Maguire than with Bailly/ Maguire. With Lindelof we have scored 2.25 goals per match which is more than any other team in the league.




I showed some “objective ratings” from English papers. This was only from his last three matches but Lindelof got pretty high average ratings. I think it is more a “fan thing” to prefer defenders who play physical and aggressive, but people who are used to analyse football can see that there is also value of more quite ways of defending. Otherwise Lindelof wouldn’t get so much higher ratings than Bailly.

Wait, are you now saying that for example, Samuel Luckhurst knows more about football than say Adam here? No way. (Based on what I've read from them both).

 

[Kostov]

If you read more carefully you’ll see that this is data and stats for PL so that kind of conceded goal would not fall in to any category. If it had been PL, it would fall in to the category goals conceded.

As for this goal it looked like Lindelof tried to clear it but missed so I guess failed clearance would be fair to describe it.

I know you hate him for some reason, but it’s disrespectful to claim United players don’t give feck all, especially players who play through injury and pain for the club and who are part of the team that has taken us back to the top of PL again.

I usually don't pay attention to such meaningless posts that mean very little in the grand scheme of things. We still conceded 24 goals in 16 matches and the narrative you paddle that Lindelof still formed a CB partnership that got us to the top of the table is very meaningless to describe the state of our defense.

As for this goal, it will soon be forgotten by the likes of you who love to point out how Bailly for example does constant feck ups while Lindelof rarely does them, and is dependable. In reality he still has the regular mistake in him albeit like everything he does, very timid and unspectacular.

And that, I know you hate him is such a childish remark, on contrary I've grown fond of him, but maintain my opinion that he is not good enough to start games for Manchester United and you can be sure that we will never win anything meaningful with him as a starting CB.

 

[justsomebloke]

Wait, are you now saying that for example, Samuel Luckhurst knows more about football than say Adam here? No way. (Based on what I've read from them both).

If I'm casting around in my mind for the names of good football analysts, Luckhurst probably isn't the first that comes up...

 

[A-man]

I usually don't pay attention to such meaningless posts that mean very little in the grand scheme of things. We still conceded 24 goals in 16 matches and the narrative you paddle that Lindelof still formed a CB partnership that got us to the top of the table is very meaningless to describe the state of our defense.

As for this goal, it will soon be forgotten by the likes of you who love to point out how Bailly for example does constant feck ups while Lindelof rarely does them, and is dependable. In reality he still has the regular mistake in him albeit like everything he does, very timid and unspectacular.

And that, I know you hate him is such a childish remark, on contrary I've grown fond of him, but maintain my opinion that he is not good enough to start games for Manchester United and you can be sure that we will never win anything meaningful with him as a starting CB.

If you had paid attention, you’d learn that the partnership Lindelof/Maguire has conceded 15 goals this season. 5 in the two first games when it was messy. After that they have been pretty solid and are of course they are part of the reason we are now at the top. As you say he is unspectacular. But apparently it works.

 

[A-man]

If I'm casting around in my mind for the names of good football analysts, Luckhurst probably isn't the first that comes up...

In this case, it could very well be the same person. None of them seems very fond of Lindelof

 

[Mickson]

If I'm casting around in my mind for the names of good football analysts, Luckhurst probably isn't the first that comes up...

hehe, definitely not. But Luckhurst is the first one on my mind when I think about player ratings for Man United. It's not like Gary Neville does that.

 

[Kostov]

If you had paid attention, you’d learn that the partnership Lindelof/Maguire has conceded 15 goals this season. 5 in the two first games when it was messy. After that they have been pretty solid and are of course they are part of the reason we are now at the top. As you say he is unspectacular. But apparently it works.

Or you can put it like this, the Lindelof/Maguire partnership kept just 3 clean sheets in the 13 PL games, the two 0:0 against Chelsea and City, and 1:0 against WBA. That's the epitome of a leaky defense if you ask me. City with Dias for example had 7 clean sheets, combined with just 13 goals conceded. That's a much better defensive record, and I would understand if someone boasts about it.

 

[justsomebloke]

hehe, definitely not. But Luckhurst is the first one on my mind when I think about player ratings for Man United. It's not like Gary Neville does that.

Ah well, there we have a subject in itself. I'm frequently confounded by MENs match ratings, and in particular by the motivations given. My personal favorite is a low rating for De Gea, where the motivation was that he hadn't saved a penalty in ages. Although Sky Sports are arguably even worse. ESPN arguably a little bit better.

 

[Mickson]

Ah well, there we have a subject in itself. I'm frequently confounded by MENs match ratings, and in particular by the motivations given. My personal favorite is a low rating for De Gea, where the motivation was that he hadn't saved a penalty in ages. Although Sky Sports are arguably even worse. ESPN arguably a little bit better.

That's brilliant logic. I had to stop reading, for my mental health. Top job he has though, no idea how he got it.

 

[mav_9me]

I have nothing constructive to add but I'll keep saying it. We will never win anything as long as Lindelof is our starting CB IMO.

 

[A-man]

Or you can put it like this, the Lindelof/Maguire partnership kept just 3 clean sheets in the 13 PL games, the two 0:0 against Chelsea and City, and 1:0 against WBA. That's the epitome of a leaky defense if you ask me. City with Dias for example had 7 clean sheets, combined with just 13 goals conceded. That's a much better defensive record, and I would understand if someone boasts about it.

Yes City have got their defence in order, at the expense of scoring goals. This was the outspoken tactic from Guardiola. Now they also start to score goals and seem to be a level above every other team in the PL. As most people have noted, the problem for us has been corners. 9 of the 15 goals we have conceded with Lindelof/Maguire were from corners. Last season we conceded least goals in the league in open play and that seems to continue. Nobody is boasting about our defence but it is also wrong to believe we can be at the top if the defence was useless.

3 clean sheets in 12 matches, to be correct.

Edit: We conceded 11 goals in the first 3 games. After that 13’goals in 13 games. So after the poor start we have conceded 1 goal per game. It’s still not as good as City with 0.9 goal per game.

 

[Kostov]

Yes City have got their defence in order, at the expense of scoring goals. This was the outspoken tactic from Guardiola. Now they also start to score goals and seem to be a level above every other team in the PL. As most people have noted, the problem for us has been corners. 9 of the 15 goals we have conceded with Lindelof/Maguire were from corners. Last season we conceded least goals in the league in open play and that seems to continue. Nobody is boasting about our defence but it is also wrong to believe we can be at the top if the defence was useless.

3 clean sheets in 12 matches, to be correct.

Edit: We conceded 11 goals in the first 3 games. After that 13’goals in 13 games. So after the poor start we have conceded 1 goal per game. It’s still not as good as City with 0.9 goal per game.

That's the problem with analyzing everything through stats, we have been far from good enough in open play defending besides set piece defending, and many of the issues come back to having such a proactive CB like Lindelof who rarely challenges attackers in early stages of opposition attacks, it invites pressure and brings the play into our own box more often than not which also probably leads to more corners conceded and combine that with a combo of one aerially dominant CB and aanother CB like Lindelof who imo is weak in the air, you have our problem.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

That's the problem with analyzing everything through stats, we have been far from good enough in open play defending besides set piece defending, and many of the issues come back to having such a proactive CB like Lindelof who rarely challenges attackers in early stages of opposition attacks, it invites pressure and brings the play into our own box more often than not which also probably leads to more corners conceded and combine that with a combo of one aerially dominant CB and aanother CB like Lindelof who imo is weak in the air, you have our problem.

Aye... In the last month we could and probably should easily have conceded more goals against West Ham and Leeds, not to mention we conceded two goals to Sheffield bloody United.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I have nothing constructive to add but I'll keep saying it. We will never win anything as long as Lindelof is our starting CB IMO.

Nonsense.
But playing along, it is the same as Maguire and Bailly then.

 

[croadyman]

Yes City have got their defence in order, at the expense of scoring goals. This was the outspoken tactic from Guardiola. Now they also start to score goals and seem to be a level above every other team in the PL. As most people have noted, the problem for us has been corners. 9 of the 15 goals we have conceded with Lindelof/Maguire were from corners. Last season we conceded least goals in the league in open play and that seems to continue. Nobody is boasting about our defence but it is also wrong to believe we can be at the top if the defence was useless.

3 clean sheets in 12 matches, to be correct.

Edit: We conceded 11 goals in the first 3 games. After that 13’goals in 13 games. So after the poor start we have conceded 1 goal per game. It’s still not as good as City with 0.9 goal per game.

These stats are the exact reason we won't ever see Bailly as first choice alongside Maguire in my opinion, was absolutely stunned when you said our first choice partnership had won 8 games together but that will still never convince me that they are the right first choices.

 

[A-man]

That's the problem with analyzing everything through stats, we have been far from good enough in open play defending besides set piece defending, and many of the issues come back to having such a proactive CB like Lindelof who rarely challenges attackers in early stages of opposition attacks, it invites pressure and brings the play into our own box more often than not which also probably leads to more corners conceded and combine that with a combo of one aerially dominant CB and aanother CB like Lindelof who imo is weak in the air, you have our problem.

I fully agree that stats alone is not a good way to analyse everything. The opposite, to only watch and observe, is just as bad. A combination is the best.

The idea you have about the corners is a good example. Your gut feeling from watching the matches tells you that we concede a lot of corners and therefore a lot of corner goals. And the reason we concede so many corners is because Lindelof is passive, invites pressure, and brings the play to our box. That sounds reasonable and could be a feeling many people have.

However stats will quickly tell you that it is not true.
We've conceded 4.9 corners per game, which is below average. Only 6 teams have conceded less corners.
When Lindelof has played, we have conceded 4.75 corners per game, when Bailly played we conceded 5.25 corners per game which is practically the same.
The real outcome does not support the gut feeling.

The problem is that we are poor at defending corners. We have conceded 9 goals in 78 corners. Thats 12% of the corners are goals. That is extremely high.

 

[A-man]

These stats are the exact reason we won't ever see Bailly as first choice alongside Maguire in my opinion, was absolutely stunned when you said our first choice partnership had won 8 games together but that will still never convince me that they are the right first choices.

We really don't know that. Remember that Ole chose Bailly over Lindelof against Leicester because he thought his speed would be valuable against Vardy. It could very well be that he will chose CB pair depending on opponent. That would be the best imo, especially if he also chose to rotate Maguire sometimes. Bailly is often injured, Lindelof has back problems, and MAguire was injured earlier this season. Could be beneficial with rotation.

 

[mav_9me]

Nonsense.
But playing along, it is the same as Maguire and Bailly then.

Arguably yes. I wouldn't argue if someone said that. I think that combination is better and can win something but thats my opinion.

 

[croadyman]

Arguably yes. I wouldn't argue if someone said that. I think that combination is better and can win something but thats my opinion.

Yeah I would prefer that combination but people made a good point about the difficulty Eric has in staying fit

 

[Isotope]

Just the way he pass and move, he maybe can be tried to play in midfield also. I rate his reading of the game and anticipation. Surely he can't be worse than McTom?

 

[HowieC]

Just the way he pass and move, he maybe can be tried to play in midfield also. I rate his reading of the game and anticipation. Surely he can't be worse than McTom?

Even true top ball playing defenders like luiz, ramos and marquinhos have struggled in midfield let alone one who is just decent in that respect.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It’s simple people who want an all action flying into tackles CB don’t like Lindelof.

People who understand defending like him.

This is my biggest gripe with him. He holds his position and stays in line, he doesn't do anything to effect the game, he just tries to do his job and fair enough tonight he did that well enough in the sense of clearing the ball - but when it comes to counter attacks or the ball played around in front of the back 4 he just doesn't do enough for me.

Attackers must enjoy playing against him because he just lets you get on with it and waits for your mistake rather than forcing you into losing the ball.

Holding position blocks passing lanes and keeps a side compact there is a reason we face so few shots and have so few mistakes other than set pieces.

Attackers will hate playing against him as he constantly stops them from doing the final thing that results in a goal. He delays their counters, stops shots and key passes through positioning and enable our team to get back into shape.

Next time you watch him please do one thing. Focus on what his delaying allows our team to do. Look at other players from our side entering the defence whilst he “does nothing” I’m not expecting you to change your view but be open to observing.

 

[Isotope]

Even true top ball playing defenders like luiz, ramos and marquinhos have struggled in midfield let alone one who is just decent in that respect.

You'll just never know until you try it. Lot's of player playing successfully in midfield just rely on their energy and tackles.

 

[A-man]

Just the way he pass and move, he maybe can be tried to play in midfield also. I rate his reading of the game and anticipation. Surely he can't be worse than McTom?

Maybe he could play as DM, but for one and a half season we have not even been able to rotate Maguire and Lindelof when they were injured. So I don’t see any reason to move him from CB to midfield where we have plenty of options.

 

[Isotope]

Maybe he could play as DM, but for one and a half season we have not even been able to rotate Maguire and Lindelof when they were injured. So I don’t see any reason to move him from CB to midfield where we have plenty of options.

True that. I'm just thinking on some games that we want to shut the shop. I really don't rate McTom and Fred positioning as DM. Both are just clueless.

 

[DRM]

Just the way he pass and move, he maybe can be tried to play in midfield also. I rate his reading of the game and anticipation. Surely he can't be worse than McTom?

My thoughts too and would be interesting to see him in midfield. Can't be any worse that McStatic

 

[Adam-Utd]

It’s simple people who want an all action flying into tackles CB don’t like Lindelof.

People who understand defending like him.


Holding position blocks passing lanes and keeps a side compact there is a reason we face so few shots and have so few mistakes other than set pieces.

Attackers will hate playing against him as he constantly stops them from doing the final thing that results in a goal. He delays their counters, stops shots and key passes through positioning and enable our team to get back into shape.

Next time you watch him please do one thing. Focus on what his delaying allows our team to do. Look at other players from our side entering the defence whilst he “does nothing” I’m not expecting you to change your view but be open to observing.

Sorry I don’t agree at all, and that first sentence is just very condescending

I feel like you’re thinking I’m expecting him to run around like a headless chicken and fly into tackles all over the pitch? Clearly not.

lindelof though does need to find a balance in his play - so many times he’s had the chance to shut an attack down before it gets to the box, win a foul early and don’t let the team make progress up the pitch. Instead he will retreat back into shape and let everybody else do the work, they end up getting to our goal and putting in a dangerous cross or shot.

there is no 1 way to defend, but you need to be capable of doing it both ways.

the thing for me is he’s just not great at either. We could go the physical monster approach and play a higher line, or we could play a deeper line and get somebody like dunk or vestergaard who would dominate the box a lot more.

Lindelof to me is a CDM who somehow ended up playing as a centre back. Maybe in Portugal against smaller technical players he can get away with it, but not in England.

 

[A-man]

True that. I'm just thinking on some games that we want to shut the shop. I really don't rate McTom and Fred positioning as DM. Both are just clueless.

His strengths are the ones that would suit a DM midfielder so I don’t disagree, it could work. Would be interesting to try. He played there as young if I’m not mistaken (kid/teen). But as we have a shortage of CBs and plenty of midfielders, I think it would only be worth when, like you say, shut the shop, or a gradual transformation over time if we don’t find a good DM.

 

[A-man]

Sorry I don’t agree at all, and that first sentence is just very condescending

I feel like you’re thinking I’m expecting him to run around like a headless chicken and fly into tackles all over the pitch? Clearly not.

lindelof though does need to find a balance in his play - so many times he’s had the chance to shut an attack down before it gets to the box, win a foul early and don’t let the team make progress up the pitch. Instead he will retreat back into shape and let everybody else do the work, they end up getting to our goal and putting in a dangerous cross or shot.

there is no 1 way to defend, but you need to be capable of doing it both ways.

the thing for me is he’s just not great at either. We could go the physical monster approach and play a higher line, or we could play a deeper line and get somebody like dunk or vestergaard who would dominate the box a lot more.

Lindelof to me is a CDM who somehow ended up playing as a centre back. Maybe in Portugal against smaller technical players he can get away with it, but not in England.

Lindelof of is often last man. His strength is to follow his man on the counter, stall and stop the attack. He could be more aggressive, sometimes, but it always involves the risk of being overplayed, which is a risk as last man. This is probably one of the reasons why we concede so few goals at counter or in open play.
But I agree that he should alternate between safe and risky (aggressive) more. Compared to last season I think he has also improved in that department.

I would say that there are plenty of technical forwards in the PL. if we look at the top scorers from last year: Vardy, Ings, Aubayemang, Sterling, Salah, Kane, Mané, Martial, Rashford they are not all just giant strong non-technical players. And in general we defend well against the top scorers.

Edit: very few CBs have the ability to switch between being aggressive and calm and to master both. I personally see this as one of van Dijk’s best features. When they need to maintain pressure and the risk is relatively low he attacks, when he is left alone with the forward and the the risk is high, he follows and stalls.

 

[Adam-Utd]

@A-man

against the top teams we play defensive, sometimes playing a back 3 compensate. Often it’s with 2 DMs that rarely move from infront of the defence to protect it.

if we want to progress as a team we need to stop trying to over protect over cbs and have faith that they’ll do the job. I don’t see that ever happening with maguire and Lindelof as a pair.

as you say Van dijk has allowed liverpool to play with an extra element of risk because he can handle his 1v1 duels, but can you honestly say Lindelof is capable of this? I can’t.

Lindelof is capable in a tight knit team with little spaces but to move forward and play on the front foot we need a van dijk style defender who Bailly is closer to that mould. Ideally though somebody like konate would be perfect.

 

[A-man]

@A-man

against the top teams we play defensive, sometimes playing a back 3 compensate. Often it’s with 2 DMs that rarely move from infront of the defence to protect it.

if we want to progress as a team we need to stop trying to over protect over cbs and have faith that they’ll do the job. I don’t see that ever happening with maguire and Lindelof as a pair.

as you say Van dijk has allowed liverpool to play with an extra element of risk because he can handle his 1v1 duels, but can you honestly say Lindelof is capable of this? I can’t.

Lindelof is capable in a tight knit team with little spaces but to move forward and play on the front foot we need a van dijk style defender who Bailly is closer to that mould. Ideally though somebody like konate would be perfect.

No Lindelof can not handle 1v1 like van Dijk, but they are both good at stalling the attacker and force them out from centre. None of them jump in to tackles (Lindelof 0.8 and VvD 0.6 tackles per game last season) and both are good with the ball. But VvD has many other strengths that Lindelof lacks. He is super dominant in the air for example. Bailly is quite far away from VvD’s style imo. The only things they have in common are that Bailly is good at winning back the ball early, and that he’s good with the ball (as long as not pressed at least).


Edit: if you believe that Lindelof is not suited for the football you describe, then Maguire would be even less suited.
Edit 2: And I don’t think Bailly would be the man either. He reads the game too poorly to protect the high line. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[Kostov]

I fully agree that stats alone is not a good way to analyse everything. The opposite, to only watch and observe, is just as bad. A combination is the best.

The idea you have about the corners is a good example. Your gut feeling from watching the matches tells you that we concede a lot of corners and therefore a lot of corner goals. And the reason we concede so many corners is because Lindelof is passive, invites pressure, and brings the play to our box. That sounds reasonable and could be a feeling many people have.

However stats will quickly tell you that it is not true.
We've conceded 4.9 corners per game, which is below average. Only 6 teams have conceded less corners.
When Lindelof has played, we have conceded 4.75 corners per game, when Bailly played we conceded 5.25 corners per game which is practically the same.
The real outcome does not support the gut feeling.

The problem is that we are poor at defending corners. We have conceded 9 goals in 78 corners. Thats 12% of the corners are goals. That is extremely high.

What teams are these? Only six is not enough I think we should be better.

That Lindelof vs Bailly stat is only from this season? Or last one too?

 

[MikeKing]

No Lindelof can not handle 1v1 like van Dijk, but they are both good at stalling the attacker and force them out from centre..

Yeah because Chris Hemsworth and Doug Stanhope both walk into bars and say hello to women, it yields the same results.