Pogba has been injured the majority of the season mate. He's played 500 odd minutes all season. Aside from him who do we have in midfield that is a creative force? Fred, Matic and McTominay are all defensive-minded players. They play out of necessity, not because some tactical decision by Ole to pack the midfield with hard workers.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 47
- Clean sheets
- 19
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 6
- Status
This is where I agree to disagree
If he was so worried about the defense then a 5-3-2 would have been better with Matic Pogba and Bruno in midfield. We'd have been good defensively and still create chances
Good for you.
Off the top of my head, James on the right, and a player who has to work hard in CAM. Those are just 2 of the ways our chance creation was shafted, and if we hadn't gotten Bruno who happens to work hard and be creative, we'd still be struggling.
What was the use of sticking to a formation with 2 hard-working DM's as well as a hard-working RW AND a hard-working CAM, all with very little end product? IMO they were there mostly to make sure we were solid defensively, which eventually worked but we didn't have enough players on the pitch who could score.
Of course it's not the whole problem as we aren't efficient in possession, but I think it's a big part of it. Even yesterday, a player like James started, as well as a defensive duo of Fred and Scott. Meanwhile Matic, Pogba, and Greenwood were available. So either Ole is very defensive, or he doesn't trust our defence by itself. To be fair, it could very well be the former.
True, even those limited players aren't that good at being limited.
I think it's definitely a large chunk the problem, like you said playing ordinary players whose main attributes are working hard in attacking positions has been really bad for us. That's been one of the main causes for lack of goals for sure.
1. James is pretty much our only natural option on the RW. Jesse is trash and Mason can also play there but he's not a proper winger. James has started lots of games due to us having no right-wingers.
2. Ole said Pogba wasn't ready for the full 90 mins. Fred and McTominay have earned their place in the starting lineup. Matic could have easily been there but it's not like picking him is any different to Fred or Scott who just have more mobility. They're all defensive players.
Stop trying to spin everything to suit your narrative man
Don't you think a double pivot of Scott and Fred, alongside players like AWB and James against Mourinho's Tottenham is pretty defensive?
Why is James a defensive-minded player? Because he has a good work rate? By that logic so is Bruno then.
Well fair enough if you think the same way, but I do think Ole has had quite the defensive mindset this season.1. James is pretty much our only natural option on the RW. Jesse is trash and Mason can also play there but he's not a proper winger. James has started lots of games due to us having no right-wingers.
2. Ole said Pogba wasn't ready for the full 90 mins. Fred and McTominay have earned their place in the starting lineup. Matic could have easily been there but it's not like picking him is any different to Fred or Scott who just have more mobility. They're all defensive players.
Stop trying to spin everything to suit your narrative man
Mind you, it may not be because he doesn't trust the CB pair, but my point really was that the CB pair alone is not the reason for our clean sheets. We play a lot of defensive or hard-working players in attacking positions, and that helps contribute greatly to the defensive record. However, it does adversely affect our attack. I definitely thought it was common knowledge at this point, hence the salivating over players like Sancho, and hoping for Pogba and Bruno to play together.
Yeah it is. Seemed like Ole was worried about Tottenham's attack. I meant the 5-3-2 with Bruno and Pogba could have been the better way to play since we would be solid defensively and Bruno and Pogba would be there to create also.
He is in the same way Lingard is. They can't really assure you a moment of quality in a match, but they can assure you the whole work rate and running around thing. Whereas someone like Greenwood wouldn't have that work rate, but still could come up with a quality moment.
And besides, James isn't a RW, he's straight from the championship where his numbers weren't special, and this is his 2nd professional season ever. IMO he doesn't have too much over Greenwood besides hard work and speed. Which shows why he's in the team.
He's in the team and has got so many minutes because of our distinct lack of options in that position. He's playing because he's our only natural right-sided winger.
Greenwood isn't playing there cause he's not a winger and he would be wasted there.
James is a left winger. Greenwood has played right wing in youth academy more than James in championship
He's more of an inside forward type player on the left due to his right foot being his strongest. Cutting inside onto his right with his pace and lateral movement makes him effective on the left. I consider him stronger on the right when playing more like a traditional winger.
I'm well aware that Mason played various positions as a youth player but his future will be as a striker and he's more effective there IMO
Greenwood is playing there. James is just preferred over him by Ole, at least to start games anyway.
Whatever man, We're getting way off topic now. I'm not going round in pedantic circles debating players' positions in a thread about Victor Lindelof
True. In any case Lindelof was good yesterday but I do have doubts about the pair in a more expansive setup. They'd probably need a top top DM in front of them.Whatever man, We're getting way off topic now. I'm not going round in pedantic circles debating players' positions in a thread about Victor Lindelof
More or less all the best teams have good defence from the midfield. Either from top top DM like Busquets or Casemiro, or more of a collective help from the defensive midfield like in Liverpool.
You’re the second person to have pulled me for the use of ‘proactive‘. Perhaps it’s the wrong word to use. I certainly think he’s more likely to try and muscle in on an attacker and force the issue. So I see him as more proactive in that sense; plus, he’s just a much more appropriate partner for Maguire owing to his speed.
The defenders have done a good job defending. The reason we concede so many chances is because of the other part of the team. An old saying in football is ‘the best form of defence is attack’. Any team that cannot sustain attacks will come under pressure. Teams with brilliant attacks often concede fewer chances too. City have had good defensive records because half the teams they play have one player in their half! Liverpool similarly suffocate teams.
The final piece to determine how far this team can go, for me, is not getting some top attacking players, but creating a top attacking plan with them. If a team fear you and think you will create chances at will, more often than not you already win the power battle before kick off, and they retreat.
Absolutely spot on.
But imo to implement that proper attacking plan apart from the obvious RW hole we have in the team, we will need a proper CDM in order to release Pogba and Bruno. I understand when someone wants a ball playing CDM there like Carrick, but I think someone like Partey would be ideal. I also feel Ole has the right idea and.
This thread is for Lindelof so we are way off topic. Regarding him I think we will need to upgrade and I would like to see Bailly paired with Maguire.
I'd like to see Bailly and Tuanzebe given more chances. Lindelof has definitely earned his place in the squad, but given a proper run of games it's no hard to imagine Bailly and Tuanzebe surpassing Lindelof.
Btw, What's the word on Fosu Mensah?
Btw, What's the word on Fosu Mensah?
I think they’ll get some game time now when the schedule gets hectic. But it’s not like they didn’t get chances. They have, but screwed up with poor performances and/or injuries. Some people are calling for them now, but there isn’t really anything that indicates that any of them would improve the defence.
What did he do wrong in Spurs game I don't get it? The goal was Maguire's and De Gea's faults. Why is he blamed then?
The fact that he's just not suited to be Macguire's partner. If we had someone with more pace to cover for Macguire, we could have potentially cut out chances like that.
If we had someone complementing Macguire and Lindelof coming off the bench as a backup, we'll be much better off defensively as a team.
Lindelof more or less always cover for Maguire. Every time he goes up for a header, Lindelof falls back behind him. Those are the roles they have.
There are faster CBs but they are worse in other aspects. I personally don’t understand why people think Bailly would be good at covering for Maguire. He is not the player that stays behind, he likes to attack the ball just like Maguire. It is his strength to attack the ball and player, he doesnt like to fall back. He has speed to recover some situations but normally he is the one who needs someone to cover for him as he often moves up.
For the goal, it is highly speculative to assume a faster CB would have covered the shot. We have seen Bailly do it, we have seen Lindelof do it, etc.
Lindelof was his usual 6/10. Nothing to get excited about either way. I feel we can do better though.
So are you saying we are a bad defensive team? 3rd best defence in the league.
No, I'm saying we could be a great team and one of the steps would require us getting an upgrade over Lindelof.
I just don't think that pairing of Maguire and Lindelof would get us anywhere near the standards required to win the league.
I agree but we need to be realistic too. I have seen fans asking for Koulibaly etc. Ed will not buy another CB. We have bough 4 CB's in the last 5 windows. Spending another £50m on a CB will not be on the cards considering we need a RW and CM.
We need a striker too. Another season of Martial upfront as our main striker will mean another season of us hoping for 4th at best.
£50m and you will get someone who might improve the defence slightly. If United want to buy a CB that is guaranteed to dramatically improve defence (let’s say 21 goals conceded instead of 31) there are not many available. And he should compliment Maguire and he should not be very old. It will cost £90-150m and still there is no guarantee.
I think Maguire's center back partner is more likely to be a home grown player.
Exactly. It is frustrating me that fans think the answer is get rid buy new / replace. This is happening with Shaw, Lindelof, DDG, Martial. Earlier in the season, it was happening with Rashford and Fred too.
Seriously, we are a football club and a business. You cannot just get rid and buy players as if that will solve problems.
We have done that bought Martial, Depay, Rojo, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Di Maria, Lukaku, Pogba, Shaw, Lindelof, Bailly, Maguire, AWB, Fred, Matic and Alexis
A new shiny expensive toy does not mean the problems will be solved.
What do you do with DDG, Shaw, Martial? Sit on the bench? Sell? Who will pay the fee? yet who will pay the wages?
Ok, next best lets blame the club for giving the players these wages. How many fans were complaining when we signed Sanchez ? How many complained when DDG was keeping us in games and was said pay him what he wants?
How many fans are here saying Pay what it takes to get Sancho?
What, he should have evacuated his place to cover for Maguire and open more space of upcoming players as well? He did nothing wrong in the goal.
Luckily, Ole does not seem to be the guy who is toonworried about fans’ opinions. He is clearly looking for consistency and to create stability. Personally I believe the defence look rather stabile and solid. It is also nice with several players at the back who are so comfortable with the ball that most opposite teams have very little luck when they try to put pressure on them.
Our policy of spending big does make it look like you always have to spend big to get good players even though that isn't true
Exactly, we have conceded 3 in 12 now? Clean sheets Vs Chelsea and Man City. I will take that all day long. Yes, we are a team that needs to improve and that is both defensive and attacking. I think we can go on a good run.
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