Firstly, I'd like to see these quotes because they smell of bull shit. Secondly, Mason Greenwood has only played against about 10 senior defenders.
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Lindelof plays it safe a lot, but he plays smarter with the ball than Smalling. Smalling hardly ever plays a constructive pass.
It was very evident last year that several teams tried forcing us to play out from Smalling. Same tactic we used against Ajax in the EL-final. Meaning it was more difficult to play out for Lindelof as he had less space.
You remember the run Smalling went on against Cardiff? It was so evident that Cardiff players were told that they did not have to bother at all when he was on the ball.
Mason is a kid I've known since he was a child. He joined United from my hometown Huddersfield as a 6 year old and I've driven him to training on many occassions. I don't need quotes when I have the kid on the inside giving me tidbits.
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I agree with everything you're saying mate. Lindelof is a superior ball player in comparison to Smalling.
Here we go, the Smalling brigade asking for their player to be praised in a Lindelöf thread.
I'm actually in the Tuanzebe camp..
It's true though. I don't like Smalling as a player but it's quite clear that he's better in 1vs1 than Lindelof. He's stronger and quicker. I actually think Smalling is pretty good in those situations. The same goes for Axel, who is really good there.
To back up Adnan a little bit, Rashford said recently on ManUtd.com that Tuanzebe was a really though defender to beat 1vs1.
He was not a left back! He was ‘the’ left back
You are of course correct. Fabulous and elegant player, my all time favorite.
Yes I did.
So who were the top bracket CBs from the past 10 years who during the seasons they were a top CB, make as few defensive actions as Lindelof?
And on top of that aren't either quick or strong?
So yeah you didnt read the question.
Great player no question..He was not a left back! He was ‘the’ left back
You are of course correct. Fabulous and elegant player, my all time favorite.
It is you who don't read properly.
You said "I asked if there were any top CBs in the past 10 years who win the ball as little as he does - when they were in the form that made them top CBs."
The question was never about winning balls but about the stats you called "defensive actions".
Anyway. It has been proven now so you got your answer. One was Bonucci. Plus we all learned that Lindelof does not have any low numbers of "defensive actions" compared to the best CBs around Europe.
Those defensive actions are winning the ball. Happy to clear it up for you
Bonucci? He was only ever good for his ball playing. He had better defending CBs next to him.
Lindelof has low numbers compared to the best CBs in europe in the seasons they earned their reputations. He may make as many as former top CBs in their worst seasons or at 34 years old. But in their worst season or at 34 years old they wouldnt earn the reputations of being top CBs. Thats why I specified that I'm talking about those players at their best, not at their worst or when they are past it. Because a lot of okay defenders can reach those standards.
But not the ones where they established themselves as top CBs. And thats the entire point. I don't think Lindelof will do that because unlike any top CBs I can think of in the past 10 years, he doesn't win the ball with defensive actions as much as they did and usually they had a standout physical ability, whether it was being strong and physical or being quick to the ball. Lindelof is neither.
Physically he's more in the Evans category where he has neither but that might actually be downplaying Evans. Because Evans had seasons like 10/11 where he made 15.7 of those defensive actions, not 8.7 like Lindelof. And 12/13 where he made 15.1
So despite not having those physical properties, he did win the ball more than Lindelof does.
DeFeNsIvE aCtIoNs.
Evans averaged 15+ deleted acorns per game in two seasons, but let's just ignore the fact that 8 of those were him booting the ball away. I guess Lindelöf could start booting the ball away instead of playing it, to pad his number of desperate adoptions.
The whole debate around diluted abortions is dumb, because it's stats bereft of context. Please feck off with it.
Evans averaged 15+ deleted acorns per game in two seasons, but let's just ignore the fact that 8 of those were him booting the ball away. I guess Lindelöf could start booting the ball away instead of playing it, to pad his number of desperate adoptions.
The whole debate around diluted abortions is dumb, because it's stats bereft of context. Please feck off with it.
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What was his xda* though?
*Expected deleted acorns.
*Expected deleted acorns.
Actually we are discussing Lindelof as a player. I merely used Maldini to make a point about reading of the game bebut you seem to have fixated on something else.
I did not mention senior level. Not my problem if you don’t count under 21s. This is taken from the description of Lindelof on the Manchester United Supporters webpage in Sweden. This is word for word how they describe him. Note the last part of the sentence. That is the core to the point I have been making all along. Both of those points are severely lacking in Smalling and Jones and yet to be proven in Tuanzebe at the highest level. Until Victor severely screws up alongside Maguire then he deserves to be in the team for those aspects to his game.
Victor Lindelöf plays above all as a center back but he can also play right back. He combines good physical qualities - he is big, strong and fast - with a good positioning game and fine technical ability.
It was just that I don't consider clearing the ball as winning the ball. Maguire cleared the ball to a corner which lead to the goal and two lost points last weekend. For me that is not winning the ball. Smalling made a huge amount of aerial clearances last season, most of them ended up at the opponent. Not winning the ball imo. In aerials also the offensive headers count, which is a not defensive actions, and not wining the ball as you already were in possession. You could basically win the offensive aerial duel but head it over the line, which is losing the ball. Those are some of reason why i do not consider it as winning the ball.
Both Bonucci and Laporte have pretty much the same figures as Lindelof and both are considered to be top CBs by most people.
Koulibaly had a great season 2017/18 despite 8.1 "defensive actions" per game. Yes, another top CB who had lower figures than Lindelof. On top of that Koulibaly was dribbled past the double amount compared to Lindelof and he also has many fouls, I think last year was 1.4 fouls per game compared to Lindelof's 0.6.
Personally, I don't think Lindelof will be one of the "best CBs of a decade", simply because at 25 he would already be top 10 if he were to develop into one of the absolute best. I can of course be wrong.
However, I think he can develop into one of the best CBs in the PL and maybe even Europe if he plays in a team that suits him. That is a criteria for most CBs, and most players, that they benefit from different systems. It looks like today's United is moving in a direction that is beneficial for Lindelof. I do not think his numbers of "defensive actions" are any problems, as almost all of the world's best CBs have similar numbers, with a few exceptions.
Fine, have a look at the below then. Smalling is just below VVD so he is the same quality?
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2017-2018
We're discussing Lindelof as a player at 'CB' so not sure how bringing Maldini up from a different era and a very different league to the English one currently validates your point. Lindelof is more Ronny Johnsen with the difference being that Johnsen played in a far superior team.
You can think that but it doesn't make it true. He had two equally successful career periods and the longer of the two was as a CB.
I wish we could ban whoscored stats. How is this already becoming a Smalling thread when he hasn't even seen the bench this season?
I wasn't comparing Lindelof to Maldini. I only used him to make a point about reading the game. Ekeke mentioned that "reading the game" is a term used to describe players who don't win the ball much. I actually agree with you and it is a good comparison with Ronny Johnsen. And to be honest I am happy to have someone like that in the team. As you mentioned, we have other areas of the pitch that need fixing.
He had lost pace and wasn't the same player at LB hence moving to CB at a club that was bank rolled by a chap that owned half of Milan and made AC Milan a dominant force.
Now you are just saying random things to try to support your opinion. What you stated however does not contradict the fact that 11101 stated: "He had two equally successful career periods and the longer of the two was as a CB."
Sometimes when you are in a hole you should stop digging.
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Haha, agree. But admit it was kind of refreshing to see that Lindelof, who was accused of being passive because of his stats, actually had the same stats as the majority of the best CBs in the world.
I think the need for aggressive CBs is not as big anymore. It has shifted in international football and with international coaches in England we now see it shift in the PL top clubs as well. Last second tackles and random aggresive clearances are still being rewarded by the crowd because of its entertaining value, bit the coaches seem to prefer possesion and good marking instead.
I hate how these days people are trying to bring everything about football to numbers. Player A has 0.2 clearances and 0.3 tackles per game more than player B, therefore he's better because he will make an additional tackle every five games. Some people are just obsessed with this.
Numbers may work in American sports - baseball, basketball, they can be very indicative of what you can expect from a player. In a sport like football, which requires a lot of things to happen simultaneously for the score to change, it's really more of a supporting information rather than be and all about performance.
Numbers may work in American sports - baseball, basketball, they can be very indicative of what you can expect from a player. In a sport like football, which requires a lot of things to happen simultaneously for the score to change, it's really more of a supporting information rather than be and all about performance.
So are you saying Kane, Aguero who score 20+ PL goals should be judged the same as Martial?
Again if you read my posts I've said several times that having a lot of defensive actions doesnt automatically mean someone is a better defender.
Mustafi makes a lot, but he also makes lots of mistakes. He's a hard worker prone to cockups and making cockups isnt good for a CB. Phil Jones is another one, when he has a decent game (and its more likely against mid table or lower teams) he tends to make a good number of defensive actions and also plays a lot of decent passes etc. So his stats rocket up from those matches, hes a bit of a flat track bully for CBs.
That said Smalling was one of the best CBs that season. Not as good as VVD no, because VVD is also better on the ball. But Smalling at his best is a dependable CB with very good defensive instincts who is pretty good at covering when teammates are out of position.
He wasn't at his best last season - like Lindelof he was more passive with fewer defensive actions than the previous season, not as willing to try and win the ball earlier on in moves. He still made more than Lindelof just not as many as he had done the previous season. At least with Smalling I know that he can put in a hard graft and play with an attitude to win the ball because he's done it in the past, but more importantly he did it only 2 seasons ago. So he's done it recently.
Lindelof is yet to show that he can play with that determination to try and win the ball a good amount. We're into season 3 and so far my opinion is that he isn't going to show it, so I'd like to see if Tuanzabe is going to show more to his game than Lindelof. Because I think we wont have one of the top defensive records this season despite our big CB signing and when that happens, we'll probably sign another player to fix that unless Tuanzabe shows enough to suggest he can do it himself, or Lindelof becomes a more effective defender.
I hate how people can't be bothered to read and make up a different argument to the one thats being presented
Smalling can only defend low, his numbers are bullshit. There's nothing dependable about him.
Im sure Fellainis numbers are great when lumping the ball forward but we aren't going to play that way so those stats has as much relevance as how much blocks of cheese he can consume.
Has anybody got Young's stats to hand? Jones? Rojo?
Im sure Fellainis numbers are great when lumping the ball forward but we aren't going to play that way so those stats has as much relevance as how much blocks of cheese he can consume.
Has anybody got Young's stats to hand? Jones? Rojo?
Winning the ball is when a player tries to get to the ball and is successful. I don't think you can try to redefine the words. What you're looking for would be keeping the ball I guess.
Bonucci? Who is saying that he's one of the world's best CBs in the past year? I remember when we were linked with him nobody wanted us to sign him. Milan were happy to let him go too
Having said that I'll go and do it...
in 09/10 he made 10.7, 11/12 he made 11.5, in 12/13 he made 9.9 and thats despite being known more for his pass and move style and on the ball play where he does a lot more than Lindelof.
Laporte makes more defensive actions whilst being better on the ball too. It would be good if Lindelof did the same thing but he's not there at the moment
And you can talk about him being 25, but thats when a lot of these players are having these seasons where they make their name as one of the top CBs. Its that reputation that keeps them considered one when they dont have seasons that are as good.
But Bonucci was at his prime and arguably one of the worlds best defenders between 2014 and 2017. The best player for one of the three best clubs in the world during that period. If you cant recognize it is because:
A) It dont suit your agenda,
B) You rely on stats (that you misinterpret) instead of actually watching football
Furthermore, you keep ignoring that there has been a decline in clearences for all CBs at the highest level that makes it difficult comparing figures. Not due to a regress in quality, but due to a change in style. A progress in football. Again you ignore it because it do not suit your agenda and are very dogmatic. It makes you less credible.
In reality, you have designed a test that is pointless and makes no sense. And even in this context, if you understand the numbers and use them as meaningfull as possible, Lindelof comes out quite well.
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He made a move to CB in his 30s when he had lost pace. That's not me saying that but people connected to Maldini and Milan. He played his peak years at LB which was the point I made. The better version of Maldini was at fullback and most AC Milan fans even agree with that.
It's not me digging a hole for myself. It's rather the poster in question and yourself failing to understand what I said in my original post. There's a difference between me saying Maldini played majority of his peak years at LB, compared to Maldini played most of his career at LB.
Smalling has a lot of actions but with him there is no calm possesion. It gives him nice stats but the team suffer.
No I don't consider heading a pass from a team mate out over the line as winning the ball. Correct.
Koulibaly was 27 at the end of season 2017/18. Yet only 8.1. So yes. There are top CBs with lower scores than Lindelof. And yes, he has had other seasons with higher values, but fact is he had a great season 2017/18 and was considered a top CB by most and scored 8.1.
The reason I was talking about him as 25 is that I think that is too old to develop from his level to one of the best in a decade.
No I don't consider heading a pass from a team mate out over the line as winning the ball. Correct.
Koulibaly was 27 at the end of season 2017/18. Yet only 8.1. So yes. There are top CBs with lower scores than Lindelof. And yes, he has had other seasons with higher values, but fact is he had a great season 2017/18 and was considered a top CB by most and scored 8.1.
The reason I was talking about him as 25 is that I think that is too old to develop from his level to one of the best in a decade.
Clearance
This is a defensive action where a player kicks the ball away from his own goal with no intended recipient.
https://www.optasports.com/news/opta-s-event-definitions/
Is this really «winning the ball back»? Is this something we should encourage? Is it better than passing it with intent? Why?
I don't care what some lunatics said. Four U21 games are not considered as "played a lot at right-back" because he hasn't. It's a fact. It's not an opinion. And by the way, he's not big and strong and fast, and that counts as they don't really know what they are talking about so that's that. He has other qualities such as calmness, reading of the game, qualities on the ball.
I wish Lindelof had less composure and started clearing the ball more instead of passing it to a teammate. Then maybe he would be as good as Smalling and Ekeke would be happy.
Ahh, fair enough. Strange that Ole disagrees with him, almost like the manager knows better than the 17 year old youth player.
Disagrees with what mate?
The way you've made it out, Mason is after telling you that Smalling and Tuanzebe are better than Lindelof, or maybe that's how you wanted it to look to suit your narrative. Whilst I'm sure Mason has a better grasp on who's the better player than I do, I'm sure Ole certainly has a better idea than he does.
Because of previous seasons, yes. That one was very average from him
Yes, so he's not going to be a top CB just like Smalling isnt. And thats what I said. The low defensive actions and lack of physical attributes are the areas that I think will stop him from becoming one. Because to me 25 is a fine age as long as he improves his workrate for those defensive actions as he should be going towards his prime years. I just don't see that ethic and attitude from him so I dont see him improving those defensive actions. He seems like he'll just do the same as now.
If we don't have a good defensive record this season I expect Tuanzabe or a new signing to eventually take his place
Johnsen is another good comparison
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