Veron

Originally posted by Dancuffe:
<strong>Why post a thread if don't believe it's going to happen or want it to happen? You posted a deliberatly provocative thread, get a bit of stick for it. And then get all upset because no one thinks its a good idea!!! Your to sensitive.
I thought this site was about Manchester United and not Livvie20?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow! You are one hard new member, I say... Quite admirable spirit... But, really, Livvie is one who is quite level headed and does not deserve this kind of abuse, although, I am so thoroughly against her suggestion that Veron is more expendable than Giggs or Beckham...
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Originally posted by Vinay:
<strong>

I am so thoroughly against her suggestion that Veron is more expendable than Giggs or Beckham...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well it's all down to opinion Vinay - I have to admit that a lot of my reasoning there is partly down to sentiment and partly down to not yet having seen the best, imo, of Seba.

As I keep saying tho, I don't want anyone to leave.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Well it's all down to opinion Vinay - I have to admit that a lot of my reasoning there is partly down to sentiment and partly down to not yet having seen the best, imo, of Seba.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:) I understand the sentiment part. Although, from the sentiment point of view, I find Veron a perfect piece in the jigsaw of our team. One cannot but marvel at the way he played his heart out against Real. And that is only bonus added to all the talent he has, which, quite obviously, Livvie, even you will have to admit we have seen this season, even in the Premier League... :)
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Vinay, I think Livvie can argue her own corner well enough. I don't think I'm being abusive either. Lets just beg to differ. My point being that if we want to move forward we must keep the big game players who want to be at United. Sell the fringe players that don't meet the expectations of a Club such as United and build from there. Manchester United are bigger than any individuals but must keep moving forward and not sideways or backwards.I think signing Veron was one of the biggest transfer coups SAF has pulled off so far. He is a world class south american player who is in his prime and we should hold on to him for as long as possible. That my fellow United fans is my view on the matter.
 
Originally posted by Dancuffe:
<strong>My point being that if we want to move forward we must keep the big game players who want to be at United. Sell the fringe players that don't meet the expectations of a Club such as United and build from there. Manchester United are bigger than any individuals but must keep moving forward and not sideways or backwards.I think signing Veron was one of the biggest transfer coups SAF has pulled off so far. He is a world class south american player who is in his prime and we should hold on to him for as long as possible. That my fellow United fans is my view on the matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I cannot agree more with you! :)
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Originally posted by Dancuffe:
<strong>Why post a thread if don't believe it's going to happen or want it to happen? You posted a deliberatly provocative thread, get a bit of stick for it. And then get all upset because no one thinks its a good idea!!! Your to sensitive.
I thought this site was about Manchester United and not Livvie20?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You seem to be posting your opinions far more forcefully than me. And still being insulting. Why should the site be about me because I started a debate on something you've taken offence at? And I didn't say I didn't believe it would happen - Peter Kenyon has said we have to sell, and that invites speculation.

And it wasn't deliberately provocative as such. I knew that some people would get upset at the thought of Seba being sold, but I thought - and still do - that Peter Kenyon's comments were serious, and that a big name is likely to go.

I had hoped that more people would actually give an opinion on which player it would be and why, so contributing to a constructive debate.

I don't think it warranted me being called a racist, or a xenophobe, or having you say I take myself too seriously, which is rubbish, because I always take notice of other people's opinions if they give them rationally and without abuse. You started the personal insults, but like you said about me, you don't like getting a bit of stick back.

You had a go about me not believing everything I read in the paper - and yet you went on at length slagging off Beckham for something that as far as we know was just media hype.

You go on about freedom of speech, and believe you're entitled to hand out insults to me, and yet I shouldn't have started this topic, but I think you'll find that the majority of topics in this forum are based on speculation. If I'd gone on a long rant about how useless Seba is and why he should go, I might understand the reactions better, but I didn't do that. In fact, you can trawl right back thru the archives, and I doubt you'll find a post from me slagging off a player. Well apart from Andy COle. ;)


Was there actually a problem with you just doing a post saying that you didn't think Veron would leave, and why. Or would that have been too boring.
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Originally posted by Dancuffe:
<strong>Vinay, I think Livvie can argue her own corner well enough. I don't think I'm being abusive either. Lets just beg to differ. My point being that if we want to move forward we must keep the big game players who want to be at United. Sell the fringe players that don't meet the expectations of a Club such as United and build from there. Manchester United are bigger than any individuals but must keep moving forward and not sideways or backwards.I think signing Veron was one of the biggest transfer coups SAF has pulled off so far. He is a world class south american player who is in his prime and we should hold on to him for as long as possible. That my fellow United fans is my view on the matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Why couldn't you have posted that in the first place - a reasoned argument without the abuse.
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As Vinay said our team of the future must be built around Rio Veron Ruud Scholes Beckham Mickey and Sir John.Regarding Veron's performance this season two months back(before the leeds match)i had posted the Opta Stats regarding Veron.They suggest that he is the best midfielder in England with highest pass completion rate(as he had completed 1000 passes in less number of matches)with majority of which are long-through-creative balls which are difficult to pull off.In Eroupe Opta People say that he is the best CM with more goals+assists than any other midfielder with the highest pass completion rate..

Livvie i know you dont like Veron.I've been noting this for some time.Some time back
when we are selecting the team for Juventus you choose to ignore his name and selected P.Neville and NickyButt as the midfield Generals and you seem agree with posters who are ignoring and slagging Veron.Ok fine You are entitled to have your own opinions on any player.I dont mind.But Veron is an integral part of our team.I think its insane to suggest that a player of Veron's calibre should be sold considering his performance so far this season
 
On his day, Veron is World-Class IMO. But when has a stinker, he has a stinker.

However, as it was said elsewhere on this forum, he has gotten to grips with the English game a lot better. He puts in more challenges now, tracks back and generally works harder for the team.

I for one, would hate to see him go.
 
Originally posted by vijay_vr:
<strong>

Livvie i know you dont like Veron.I've been noting this for some time.Some time back
when we are selecting the team for Juventus you choose to ignore his name and selected P.Neville and NickyButt as the midfield Generals and you seem agree with posters who are ignoring and slagging Veron.Ok fine You are entitled to have your own opinions on any player.I dont mind.But Veron is an integral part of our team.I think its insane to suggest that a player of Veron's calibre should be sold considering his performance so far this season</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is getting boring.

Firstly, you don't know any such thing - I don't dislike Veron at all.

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>I like Seba. I've not always thought he was as good as the hype, but he has stuck at it and has to be admired because it can't have been easy for him.

But apart from that, he just seems like a really nice kind of person.

I hope he continues to settle the way he has this season because he seems to have a feeling for United.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did you not note that as well? I can find several more if you like. There have also been times when I've stuck up for him when he's been slagged off.

I've thought Seba played brilliantly in Europe and have said so so I don't know why I wouldn't have selected him for the Juventus game - he was injured for one of them and maybe there was doubt in the other. I'd need to see the post to remember why.

And I didn't suggest that he should be sold. :rolleyes: I did put forward the possibility that if a big name has to go, it might be him as we have achieved our current position mainly without him. I've also said - you obviously didn't note it - that the question would have arisen had it been any other player who had been out for a long time with injury.

There have been times when I've probably criticised his performance. There have been times when I doubted that he could adapt to the English league. Find me a post where I have really slagged him off.

Incidentally, I like your use of the Opta stats. I used them myself last year when they proved that Ole was a better striker than Ruud.
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Originally posted by vijay_vr:
<strong>As Vinay said our team of the future must be built around Rio Veron Ruud Scholes Beckham Mickey and Sir John.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would build my team around Ruud, Scholesy and JOS. Those are the 3 players where you'd have to offer me really silly money before I'd even consider selling.

RVN and Scholesy are the only 2 players this year where if they had been out for any serious length of time, they would have been really missed. When you look at the amount of time some of our other big named players have been out of the team or simply out of form such as Giggsy, Seba, Becks, Keano or Rio...you'd have to say we've done pretty well without them and other players have stepped in and have done the job well in their absence. For me, that's always a clear sign as to how vital/irreplaceable a player is to the side.

Before anyone accuses me of being anti-Becks, Seba, Giggsy, Rio or Keano, I want to make it clear that I don't want to see any of them go, because they are important players for us. It's just that I wouldn't elevate them to the same level as Scholesy and RVN in terms of how indispensable and crucial they are to the side.

I've included JOS in the list with Scholesy and Ruud simply because I think he's a superstar in the making. He not only has the talent, but equally as important, he has the mental makeup to be a great player. There are a lot of players with great talent. But he has that extra something...mental toughness, grit and determination. And if you told me I could only keep one of our defenders, it would be him.
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Liv, there's no point in arguing with transfer forum posters - they haven't got a braincell between them.
 
Originally posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber:
<strong>Sid sutton ever taken a look in the mirror lately? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> Thats probaly why you mind is on wanking and cnuts you wanksta :p </strong><hr></blockquote>
Example one.
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Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>

I've included JOS in the list with Scholesy and Ruud simply because I think he's a superstar in the making. He not only has the talent, but equally as important, he has the mental makeup to be a great player. There are a lot of players with great talent. But he has that extra something...mental toughness, grit and determination. And if you told me I could only keep one of our defenders, it would be him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wish Wes Brown had that mental toughness.
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Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>Why is Livvie getting all this abuse simply for starting a debate on who should be sacrificed, IF we have to sacrifice a big named player this summer? This is the transfer forum, isn't it?

By throwing out a simple question, she's been called a racist and subjected herself to a lot of grief just because she wanted to start a debate.

I read stuff on the forum everyday where people are mercilessly slagging off United players. Try looking at the threads on Fabien, past threads on Giggsy or look at some of the recent ones on Keano. A lot of the criticism in these threads are way over the top and outright ridiculous. And yet they don't generate nearly the same heated responses that this one has. Why is that?

If you don't agree with her post, why don't you just argue your point without making it personal? Or if you don't like the thread and can't be bothered...just skip the thread. I do it all the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

An excellent post!

Some of you really should take the trouble to re-read what Livvie has actually said.

:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>

I would build my team around Ruud, Scholesy and JOS. Those are the 3 players where you'd have to offer me really silly money before I'd even consider selling.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The reason I add a Veron to that list is because we have to realize that Veron cannot but end up being a legend with us. He has had to modify his game to suit the English style. And I challenge anyone to say he has not shown he can do it. He is going to be pivotal in the creative midfield aspect of our game. I won't say he is expendable simply because he missed a bunch of games and we still did well.

For that matter, this argument cannot stand for Ruud or Scholes. If they had been out of the side for a decent amount of time, who is to say that Forlan or Fletcher would not have been able to step it up in their place? Before anyone tells me that Forlan is not good enough or that Fletcher needs maturing, let me first ask who amongst us would have been willing to suggest that Phil Neville and Quinton Fortune would have been so huge for us as subs in midfield??? I will very easily say no one. They were not proven to be the most effective at what they were asked to do and they did it under the circumstances we found ourselves. I thank God for allowing us to play Ruud and Scholes for as long as we have been able to this season, but, that does not mean to say that they have been the most indispensable players. If they had been out, someone else might stepped up in their place, the same as those who replaced Keane, Beckham and Veron when they were out this season.

I still think Veron is very, very pivotal to our team. He is the most talented player in our team, creatively speaking. And I would build my team around him. And around those other wonderful players we have - Ruud, Scholes, John and Rio.
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Originally posted by Vinay:
<strong>

The reason I add a Veron to that list is because we have to realize that Veron cannot but end up being a legend with us. He has had to modify his game to suit the English style. And I challenge anyone to say he has not shown he can do it.

For that matter, this argument cannot stand for Ruud or Scholes. If they had been out of the side for a decent amount of time, who is to say that Forlan or Fletcher would not have been able to step it up in their place?

I still think Veron is very, very pivotal to our team. He is the most talented player in our team, creatively speaking. And I would build my team around him. And around those other wonderful players we have - Ruud, Scholes, John and Rio.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Seba was outstanding in Europe. But although he's made great strides in the league this year, he's still not pivotal to our side in the league. In all likelihood he won't be starting the next 2 league matches, the matches which for a lot of people will define whether this season was a success or failure. I would say most fans haven't even given it much thought as to whether or not Seba will be fit/or if he's playing. Contrast this to the sheer panic that was induced on the forum yesterday when we thought Ruud was seriously injured.

For me, when you talk about building your side around someone, the player needs to be someone who has proven he can/will deliver for you in the league and in Europe...and that player also needs to be someone you can count on to play consistently well throughout the entire season. Seba may well be our most gifted player. But in terms of the end product in the league, and not only in Europe, I think he still has a ways to go.

I'm not picking on Seba. I like Seba. In the Champions League, I think he's absolutely vital to us and I really think he could have made the difference against Real Madrid. I was at Old Trafford last year when Seba took apart Deportivo La Coruna and in Turin when he pulled all the strings like a master puppeteer. He was magical. I know what the man can do.

As for whether Diego or Fletcher could have filled Ruud or Scholesy's shoes, well that's another question. I think I'll leave that debate for another time and another place although I have to admit I'm relived that hypothetical wasn't put to the test this year.
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Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>

Seba was outstanding in Europe. But although he's made great strides in the league this year, he's still not pivotal to our side in the league. In all likelihood he won't be starting the next 2 league matches, the matches which for a lot of people will define whether this season was a success or failure. I would say most fans haven't even given it much thought as to whether or not Seba will be fit/or if he's playing. Contrast this to the sheer panic that was induced on the forum yesterday when we thought Ruud was seriously injured.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I should beg to say that people have not come to terms yet with the fact that Veron has proven he can play in the EPL and very effectively. He has a few outstanding games and not too many poor ones, in my opinion. That is the only reason why we, here in the cafe, were not caring about him playing or not in the remaining two games. Ruud van Nistelrooy, on the other hand, has simply mesmerized everybody, as it is so easy to while scoring goals. I am not downplaying Ruud's importance at all. But, I am saying it is easy to see Veron's contribution go unnoticed compared with Ruud's. And for me, Veron is every bit as important as Ruud in Europe as well as in the EPL.

Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>

As for whether Diego or Fletcher could have filled Ruud or Scholesy's shoes, well that's another question. I think I'll leave that debate for another time and another place although I have to admit I'm relived that hypothetical wasn't put to the test this year.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was mentioning this not to debate, but for argument sake. There is absolutely no debate possible. It is only hypothesis, an argument. Were the other hypothesis put forward: that we would need Phil Neville to replace Keane, I am quite sure no one would have vouched for that one either. And yet, it did pay off more than big time... That is to say just argument sake, we cannot say someone who has had a great season could not have been matched by someone else; like it would not have been possible for someone else (like OGS, maybe?) to contribute ably like Ruud, had Ruud been injured.

There have been so many instances of us realizing how some people can step it up, once they get that chance. And more than one have done at OT this year!
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Originally posted by Vinay:
<strong>
I am not downplaying Ruud's importance at all. But, I am saying it is easy to see Veron's contribution go unnoticed compared with Ruud's. And for me, Veron is every bit as important as Ruud in Europe as well as in the EPL.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree with you that Seba's contribution in Europe has been as important as Ruud's. But in terms of the league, if you believe Seba has been as important to us in the league as Ruud...well, there's no place left for us to go with this because the gap between our opinions is so big we'll never even come close to seeing eye to eye on this. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>

Agree with you that Seba's contribution in Europe has been as important as Ruud's. But in terms of the league, if you believe Seba has been as important to us in the league as Ruud...well, there's no place left for us to go with this because the gap between our opinions is so big we'll never even come close to seeing eye to eye on this. We'll just have to agree to disagree.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I will be the first one to agree that Ruud has outperformed everybody in the EPL. There is no question about that. But, we cannot ignore Veron's contribution. The man has proved more than once (I don't have the games in mind right now) that he can more than adapt to the English game. In fact, he has shown the ability of being able to dictate proceedings in an EPL game. And I believe he will do so more regularly, more dominantly henceforth. For which reason, I consider him every bit as important as RVN to our team. Understand here, that by this assessment of Veron's importance to our team in the EPL, I do not imply that his contribution in the EPL this season has been as good as Ruud's. There is quite a difference there...
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Originally posted by Vinay:
<strong>

I will be the first one to agree that Ruud has outperformed everybody in the EPL.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, I would say that Scholesy's been as good as Ruud in the league. Wouldn't be able to pick between them for player of the year right now.

Originally posted by Vinay:
<strong>
The man has proved more than once (I don't have the games in mind right now) that he can more than adapt to the English game. In fact, he has shown the ability of being able to dictate proceedings in an EPL game. And I believe he will do so more regularly, more dominantly henceforth. </strong><hr></blockquote>

In terms of Seba eventually becoming as dominant in the league as he's been in Europe this year, let's both hope that'll be the case next year. I think he's really improved in the league from the year before. He's made a real effort to come to grips with the grittier side of the game here and hopefully it'll all come together for him in the league next year.
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Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>

In terms of Seba eventually becoming as dominant in the league as he's been in Europe this year, let's both hope that'll be the case next year. I think he's really improved in the league from the year before. He's made a real effort to come to grips with the grittier side of the game here and hopefully it'll all come together for him in the league next year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes Seba has improved lot in the League.Barring 3 or 4 matches(City,Fulham,Bolton..) he was either good or outstanding.
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not convinced with Veron at all. Champions league he's been good, but continentally there is more space available anyway. just my opinion. still unconvinced
 
Agree that Veron has improved a lot this season. But it's also obvious that we don't miss Veron at all in the EPL when he was out for two months. The only time we hope Veron is available is in the CL match against RM. When the title race is going into wire and we don't miss a player at all, it's clear how much is this player's contribution in the league.

Veron is crucial to our CL challenge next season, and let's also hope he can continue to improve his performance in the league.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>
Veron is crucial to our CL challenge next season, and let's also hope he can continue to improve his performance in the league.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Veron will not be going, because he is the youngest midfielder we have.

Next season Scholes, Beckham and Butt will be heading for 29, Giggs for 30, and Keane for 32.

Veron is the youngest of the lot.

We will have to think about bringing in younger midfielders over the coming couple of seasons, as we can't replace the whole lot at once.
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No matter how good our midfield is, its also true that its average age is getting older and unless we don’t start to change it now, using the money recovered to compensate to the new buys, we would soon be in trouble.

You will say we don’t need that after all we are the richest team in the world. But how can you ever substitute nearly 150m worth in talent. Even if we bring new youths now, they will never develop well unless they don’t play week in week out (unless they want to stay as second fiddle)

The revolution should be well thought and well orchestrated, changing players while trying our best not to damage the midfield. Players like Butt (not actually a star), Veron ( never really actually settled down in our side) and Giggs (showing signs of decline) should be replaced with younger stars who will learn a lot from the current side. Players like Ronaldinho, Van del Meyde, Christiano Zanetti and Queresima
 
Originally posted by Travis Bickle:
<strong>

Veron will not be going, because he is the youngest midfielder we have.

Next season Scholes, Beckham and Butt will be heading for 29, Giggs for 30, and Keane for 32.

Veron is the youngest of the lot.

We will have to think about bringing in younger midfielders over the coming couple of seasons, as we can't replace the whole lot at once.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I think Veron is less than one year younger than Beckham, and around one year younger than Scholes and Butt, so you just can't say "younger" is a big advantage of him.

I don't think we need to bring in too many young midfielders. May be one quick winger is enough. if we bring in too many then home-grown talents like Fletcher and Richardson will never get a chance.
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wow what have i missed out on....

ok heres why Seba can become important to our cause and become a legend. (I assume no one questions his ability - he has proved you all he is good enough this season.)

What I like about Veron is his attitude. He is commited, passionate about the game, about the club.

But most importantly when the chips are down he will stand up and be counted. He showed this against Real where at first we were beginning to give them too much space again, he was the guy snapping away at heels. He wont sit back and accept defeat just like Keano, Becks, Fergie, Ruud. Such players and characters are very valuable in your squad. It makes up for alot of lack of ability, but we all know Seba has this ability in abundance.

I believe he will only get better from here.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>


I think Veron is less than one year younger than Beckham, and around one year younger than Scholes and Butt, so you just can't say "younger" is a big advantage of him.

I don't think we need to bring in too many young midfielders. May be one quick winger is enough. if we bring in too many then home-grown talents like Fletcher and Richardson will never get a chance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I really hope that the Fletcher and Timms will be given a real chance this coming year. But the truth is our first choice stars will all be coming to the end of their careers in the next three years. Beckham. Giggs. Keane. Scholes. There is no telling if they will be able to play well beyond 31/2, but most players tend to finish at the top around that age.
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Originally posted by Travis Bickle:
<strong>

I really hope that the Fletcher and Timms will be given a real chance this coming year. But the truth is our first choice stars will all be coming to the end of their careers in the next three years. Beckham. Giggs. Keane. Scholes. There is no telling if they will be able to play well beyond 31/2, but most players tend to finish at the top around that age.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Then bring in new players when they are 31/2 but not now. You can't just bring in top players and then tell them: "Sit on the bench for these 3 years, after that you will get a chance when the older players retire".
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Then bring in new players when they are 31/2 but not now. You can't just bring in top players and then tell them: "Sit on the bench for these 3 years, after that you will get a chance when the older players retire".</strong><hr></blockquote>

We've always brought in top players to a competative team. RVN and JSV being the last two examples, when we had a full midfield and Cole and Ole up front.

In any case, players retirment is rarely a Cantona type sitution. Often their last seasons are in decline. Blanc (great player but too slow) Irwin (again had slowed too much).

Fergie has said that he is going to bring in players over the close season, and that he wants an element which will make the difference in the European cup.
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Originally posted by Travis Bickle:
<strong>

Veron will not be going, because he is the youngest midfielder we have.

Next season Scholes, Beckham and Butt will be heading for 29, Giggs for 30, and Keane for 32.

Veron is the youngest of the lot.

We will have to think about bringing in younger midfielders over the coming couple of seasons, as we can't replace the whole lot at once.</strong><hr></blockquote>

very true...
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i do hope we keep veron, his form is getting better and better and i am sure he will show us why we paid 28 million quid for him next season! united would be silly to sell him.
 
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