Venezuela – socialist paradise on the verge of collapse

PedroMendez said:
That's all and well, but shows his lack of understanding. The narrative, that Chavez was the good guy and things turned bad with Maduro and a collapsing oil price, is false. There was essentially no sustainable economic development under Chavez. Consumption increased due to increased income from rising commodity prices, but the country didn't develop any industry, that would boost gdp/productivity. On the contrary, he managed to destroy the little there was.
There seem to be many ways to skin the cat. China, India, Peru or Ethiopia (+another 20 countries) do things in their unique way to grow their economy. For all the differences in strategies to develop emerging markets, one has to accept globalization and show the willingness to integrate at least some important sectors into global markets. Countries that reject this, will never have long-term success, because they will not develop a large middle class.
Not in hindsight but during the boom of the 00s, enough people pointed out that Venezuela is on a bad path. They were on a bad path, because they didn't invest their wealth to build something, but used it for consumption. That was out there for everyone to see. If you live by ressource rents, you die by ressource rents. Nobody would say a bad thing about Chavez, if would have turned Venezuela into Norway. His policies weren't designed to do that.
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Being agree with what you are saying, what other people of the capitalisminfluence area said about Venezuela I would not care much. Specially after they prove with a coup (supervised by Abrams (or is what I read lately) in 2002. Venezuela is not capitalist and doing things right or wrong would be always wrong.

What I can guarantee is that before Chavez, the governments developed the country the same way but they enrich themselves. At least Chavez, being because he believed on it or because of populism, took millions of extreme poverty and raised many developing indicators aiming the least priviledged. And again, Chavez did many things wrong, he purged the state owned company from workers that where not aligned with the party, he censored a lot of the media that went against him, he actually attempted a coup before he became a president, he did not developed the industry as you point it out, but he did many other things right and benefited the poorest layers of the country.
 
Come on Pedro, you know very well no country in South America will ever be like Norway.

Not because we can't be, but because the USA and the "elites" of each country will never allow it. No matter how good the intentions or policies.


Here in Chile, 9500 people died waiting for medical attention between January and July 2018. Around a thousand kids dies per year in hands of the state. And we are a OECD country supposedly.

We have our own indoor humanitarian crisis, yet the only topic the news and the government talks about... Venezuela and "Chilezuela". (Chilezuela is one of the slogans used by right wing candidate to win the elections) I have never been so embarrassed of a Government before, and probably people must be feeling the same in Argentina and rest of right wing governments countries.

Seriously, our government act more like an opposition party in Venezuela, rather than the current Chilean government. pathetic.
 
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George Owen said:
Come on Pedro, you know very well no country in South America will ever be like Norway.

Not because we can't be, but because the USA and the "elites" of each country will never allow it. No matter how good the intentions or policies.


Here in Chile, 9500 people died waiting for medical attention between January and July 2018. Around a thousand kids dies per year in hands of the state. And we are a OECD country supposedly.

We have our own indoor humanitarian crisis, yet the only topic the news and the government talks about... Venezuela and "Chilezuela". (Chilezuela is one of the slogans used by right wing candidate to win the elections) I have never been so embarrassed of a Government before, and probably people must be feeling the same in Argentina and rest of right wing governments countries.

Seriously, our government act more like an opposition party in Venezuela, rather than the current Chilean government. pathetic.
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You wrong! The reason no South or Central america country will never be like Norway is the same reason most of the countries in Europe can't be like Norway

....actually because they were colonies of Portugal and Spain and both countries are shit and the genes run really strong down there
 
George Owen said:
Come on Pedro, you know very well no country in South America will ever be like Norway.

Not because we can't be, but because the USA and the "elites" of each country will never allow it. No matter how good the intentions or policies.
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These countries had terrible political systems in 1600, in 1700, in 1800, in 1900, in 2000... It is easy to blame some "external forces", but if they want the truth they have to look at the mirror.
 
CA_vampire said:
These countries had terrible political systems in 1600, in 1700, in 1800, in 1900, in 2000... It is easy to blame some "external forces", but if they want the truth they have to look at the mirror.
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:lol:

God this is beyond stupid.
 
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The general Hugo Carvajal -in charge of intelligence with Chávez- ask Maduro to assume the humanitarian crisis and puts himself at the service of Guaidó
 
My Venezuelan friend there, says that 23-F is key. Is when the Colombian/Brazilian/Caribbean help comes and if Maduro accepts it, will mean that he recognize Guaido. Id he doesn't accepted, it will be a lot of unrest as the humanitarian help is not from US
 
Replies to this are fun

 
Kaos said:
Like I said, there’s a difference between praising someone for enacting national policies they deem to be beneficial for the most vulnerable in society compared to a government that likes to arm a heinous medieval state so they can kill scores of Yemeni civilians and covertly back Islamic extremist factions.
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So what you are saying is because Corbyn was only virtue signalling, his comments shouldn’t have been taken too seriously.
 
Guaido said deaths are not expenses but investments. Bernie implies that Maduro doesn't let in humanitarian aid which is false. Just not from a hostile foreign power that is open about the real motives.
 
Even if you're inclined to ignore the recent war crimes by the exact same people involved in this coup, it's astonishing how many people think a country that can't give it's own people clean water and healthcare is going to help Venezuela.
 
Ubik said:
Replies to this are fun

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What I think remarkable about a lot of this is the determination from some people to transform every aspect of this conflict into being a US-centric one. I absolutely agree that the current US govt are only out for their own ends here and that they're completely uninterested in the well-being of people in Venezuela, but Bernie's completely correct at the same time here, and he isn't some shill of a right-wing US agenda in saying so.
 
2cents said:
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The longer this is going on the more it has that distinct feeling of "THE USA are fecking up some random country again".

Probably still best for Maduro to go but that was said of Saddam too.
 
fishfingers15 said:
10 years later Silva and Eboue would want open borders with Venezeula because of US intervention ruined it :wenger:
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actually no i want to bomb it and then force all the people who manage to escape to become sex slaves or move to mexico or the jungle making coke working for a cartel so we napalm more criminals in one go
 
Cheesy said:
What I think remarkable about a lot of this is the determination from some people to transform every aspect of this conflict into being a US-centric one. I absolutely agree that the current US govt are only out for their own ends here and that they're completely uninterested in the well-being of people in Venezuela, but Bernie's completely correct at the same time here, and he isn't some shill of a right-wing US agenda in saying so.
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We're not defending Maduro, we're criticizing the neocons in the US. If Maduro needs to go, it should be handled internally and/or with UN involvement. The Trump administration and the CIA should play no part.
 
Cheesy said:
What I think remarkable about a lot of this is the determination from some people to transform every aspect of this conflict into being a US-centric one. I absolutely agree that the current US govt are only out for their own ends here and that they're completely uninterested in the well-being of people in Venezuela, but Bernie's completely correct at the same time here, and he isn't some shill of a right-wing US agenda in saying so.
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This.
 
Eboue said:
We're not defending Maduro, we're criticizing the neocons in the US. If Maduro needs to go, it should be handled internally and/or with UN involvement. The Trump administration and the CIA should play no part.
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precisely.
I think any possible goodwill trump could have had was gone the moment he appointed Abrams. And the Rubio tweet just shows their hand - they don't care what happens afterwards if they can get rid of the leader they dislike.

edit - based on what ive seen elsewhere, im probably much more critical/skeptical of maduro than other leftists, i think the main reason he's in power currently is that he's effectively bribed the military. the answer to him is not abrams.
 
If Trump does not help who will? Russia?
Is the United Nations worth anything nowadays?
the maneuvers against Assad were also considered a coup d'etat?
What Rubio published is exactly the feeling of all Venezuelans exiled and repressed by the colectivos( the armed bikers that defend "the revolution against imperialism". The wildcard from the last 15 years) and the FAN.
 
Anyone who thinks Trump, Rubio, Bolton, Abrams have the best interest of Venezuela at heart...Oh boy you're in for a surprise.
 
Irish Jet said:
Anyone who thinks Trump, Rubio, Bolton, Abrams have the best interest of Venezuela at heart...Oh boy you're in for a surprise.
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In fairness I don't think these people what Trump etc do to Venezuela as long as their seen to be doing something. Its a very odd mindset .
 
Silva said:
another astonishing success, the average Syrian is currently dancing in the streets and singing love sonnets to their American friends
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surely Trump's intentions - and many venezuelans know it - are not the best but it is difficult to make the lives of Venezuelans more difficult.
If he is able to ensure clean elections, it would be enough.
 
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