VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Pogue Mahone said:
The Brighton player should probably have been booked too but Rice’s actions were more egregious because he kicked the ball while the player who had won the foul was in the process of taking his free. Which is obviously a worse offence. At least when a player kicks the ball after the whistle he can have the excuse that he didn’t hear a whistle. Rice had no such excuse.
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Was it actually a worse offence? With Rice, the ball was still moving and he tapped it literally inches as part of his stride? The Brighton player booted it 40 yards. If the yellow was for delaying the restart, that’s pretty damn inconsistent.

Once again, Rice is stupid for giving the ref a decision to make, but common sense and basic fairness would have seen the game continue as 11 v 11.
 
Daydreamer said:
Was it actually a worse offence? With Rice, the ball was still moving and he tapped it literally inches as part of his stride? The Brighton player booted it 40 yards. If the yellow was for delaying the restart, that’s pretty damn inconsistent.

Once again, Rice is stupid for giving the ref a decision to make, but common sense and basic fairness would have seen the game continue as 11 v 11.
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Nope. He deliberately played the ball. That was absolutely clear. And yes, it was a worse offence because his action prevented a quick free-kick. Booting the ball away when it’s gone over the touchline doesn’t stop anything. As they can grab a spare ball and take a quick throw regardless.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Nope. He deliberately played the ball. That was absolutely clear. And yes, it was a worse offence because his action prevented a quick free-kick. Booting the ball away when it’s gone over the touchline doesn’t stop anything. As they can grab a spare ball and take a quick throw regardless.
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I never said Rice didn’t deliberately play the ball.

The Brighton player kicked from behind the halfway through to our goalkeeper. Play can’t continue with two balls on the pitch, so there couldn’t be a quick throw.

It’s pretty straightforward that booting the ball 40 yards delays the restart more than rolling it a few inches.
 
Daydreamer said:
I never said Rice didn’t deliberately play the ball.

The Brighton player kicked from behind the halfway through to our goalkeeper. Play can’t continue with two balls on the pitch, so there couldn’t be a quick throw.

It’s pretty straightforward that booting the ball 40 yards delays the restart more than rolling it a few inches.
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Even without the red card Rice’s antics in kicking the ball away and getting a boot in the shin for his troubles was going to cause a massive delay. Far longer than anything the Brighton player did. The two situations really aren’t comparable.
 
100 said:
Teams have got away with this shit for far too long now.

The big weakness is the space in behind and threat on the break, and they’ve all been allowed to foul there way out of it and maintain energy levels whilst containing teams.

The modern style of play and how football has advanced has been impressive, but it’s insane how one of the big weaknesses of it has been glossed over with tactical fouling
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Drives me wild, a blatantly intentional foul with no intent to get the ball should be a straight red.

Liverpool and city press so high up the pitch then just pull/foul every counter attack, often without so much as a yellow it’s infuriating
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Even without the red card Rice’s antics in kicking the ball away and getting a boot in the shin for his troubles was going to cause a massive delay. Far longer than anything the Brighton player did. The two situations really aren’t comparable.
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But Rice was sent off for kicking the ball away. The referee explicitly looks at Rice then mimics the action of kicking the ball away to show the reason he’s sending him off. The two situations are very much comparable seeing as they are literally the same situation. Except one player kicked the ball a roughly a foot away, whereas the other kicked it half the length of the pitch.
 
Daydreamer said:
But Rice was sent off for kicking the ball away. The referee explicitly looks at Rice then mimics the action of kicking the ball away to show the reason he’s sending him off. The two situations are very much comparable seeing as they are literally the same situation. Except one player kicked the ball a roughly a foot away, whereas the other kicked it half the length of the pitch.
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I don't even understand how one can argue they are different. Fundamentally delaying the free kick is a yellow. That's it. AFAIK there's nothing about how far he kicked, is another ball available etc. Now if only they applied the law every time the same
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Nope. He deliberately played the ball. That was absolutely clear. And yes, it was a worse offence because his action prevented a quick free-kick. Booting the ball away when it’s gone over the touchline doesn’t stop anything. As they can grab a spare ball and take a quick throw regardless.
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Yeah I was thinking the same thing when people were trying to draw a parallel. At the moment the ref blows the whistle, especially as it was against the team on the break, there's going to be a delay. Everyone resets and they have balls on the touchline. It's not the same as stopping someone from taking the free kick itself.
 
Withnail said:
Yeah I was thinking the same thing when people were trying to draw a parallel. At the moment the ref blows the whistle, especially as it was against the team on the break, there's going to be a delay. Everyone resets and they have balls on the touchline. It's not the same as stopping someone from taking the free kick itself.
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You can’t play with two balls on the pitch. The Brighton player kicking the ball 40 yards to our keeper delays a restart exactly the same as kicking the ball a few inches does. Except more so.

If one is a yellow, both should be. And generally a higher bar is set for second yellow cards because they lead to a sending off.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The Brighton player should probably have been booked too but Rice’s actions were more egregious because he kicked the ball while the player who had won the foul was in the process of taking his free. Which is obviously a worse offence. At least when a player kicks the ball after the whistle he can have the excuse that he didn’t hear a whistle. Rice had no such excuse.
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That's fair but i do think the Pedro one in this case was so blatant. It was yards out and an arsenal player was about to collect the ball for a quick throw.

Refs constantly do this. Deciding not to book certain things at certain times in the game. The veltman non yellow last week comes to mind - pawson has decided to try keep cards down in advance, so ignores this truly shocking yellow, only for the game to proceed and he ends up having to book other players who then have to play on yellows. They are awful every week and i know it's a very tough near impossible job but it's hard to not think they don't make alot of their own trouble with stuff like this.

Oliver last year at anfield too. The double booking for dalot. There is simply no way he cards every player who gives him similar dissent. We see it all the time.
 
Daydreamer said:
You can’t play with two balls on the pitch. The Brighton player kicking the ball 40 yards to our keeper delays a restart exactly the same as kicking the ball a few inches does. Except more so.

If one is a yellow, both should be. And generally a higher bar is set for second yellow cards because they lead to a sending off.
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Kicking it to your keeper when your whole team is going to delay the restart to get into position is the same thing?

Explain that again.
 
Withnail said:
Kicking it to your keeper when your whole team is going to delay the restart to get into position is the same thing?

Explain that again.
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What are you talking about? The ball went out for a throw. The argument was made that kicking the ball away didn’t cause a delay as we were free to take a quick throw with one of the balls place on the touch line. I’m pointing out that it did delay the restart because you can’t have two balls on the pitch.

It’s really odd having to explain how kicking a ball that has gone out for a throw with enough force that it ends up with our keeper will have the effect of delaying a restart. You’d think it was self-evident.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Even without the red card Rice’s antics in kicking the ball away and getting a boot in the shin for his troubles was going to cause a massive delay. Far longer than anything the Brighton player did. The two situations really aren’t comparable.
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There was no need for much delay as Veltman clearly could have pulled out of the kick and not booted him in the shin.

He didn’t do that because his goal wasn’t really to take a quick free kick. If that’s what he was trying to do he wouldn’t have rolled the ball into Rice as he was walking away in the first place, he would have just stood up, steadied the ball, and restarted from the spot of the foul. Veltmsn was trying to provoke an incident and both Rice (with his toe poke) and the referee took the bait.
 
Daydreamer said:
What are you talking about? The ball went out for a throw. The argument was made that kicking the ball away didn’t cause a delay as we were free to take a quick throw with one of the balls place on the touch line. I’m pointing out that it did delay the restart because you can’t have two balls on the pitch.

It’s really odd having to explain how kicking a ball that has gone out for a throw with enough force that it ends up with our keeper will have the effect of delaying a restart. You’d think it was self-evident.
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Well if because your not taking into account that your team were defending a break away so happy to take the free and in no rush really because the opposition were pretty much all back anyway.
 
Withnail said:
Well if because your not taking into account that your team were defending a break away so happy to take the free and in no rush really because the opposition were pretty much all back anyway.
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“Defending a break away”? The free kick is 10 yards from West Ham’s corner flag and the ball hadn’t even stopped moving yet.

I didn’t think it would be controversial to say that both instances are examples of kicking the ball away to delay the restart of the game, but there we go.
 
Withnail said:
Well if because your not taking into account that your team were defending a break away so happy to take the free and in no rush really because the opposition were pretty much all back anyway.
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We had a player on the sideline looking for a ball to take the quick throw within a half second of Joao Pedro booting it. This came during a heavy period of sustained pressure from Arsenal and we were very clearly intent on making a quick throw and keeping that pressure up. This is what Arsenal pretty much always do and are coached to do. Get the ball back in play as fast as possible if the opportunity is there. But we couldn't do it because there was a ball down our end of the field at this point so of course we can't throw another ball in.
 
Here's another good one from that game, in addition to the Joao Pedro incident.

Brighton foul, Estupinan literally picks up the ball and starts running away with it to delay a potential restart. No card given of course.

 
I've watched a few sports and the refs are never consistent. It's impossible to get it right every single time and even if you did, fan bias would mean no-ones happy anyway.

The only thing that's unique about football is how fans are hysterical in response to refereeing calls and scream about corruption whenever they don't get the throw in they wanted.

Rice kicked the ball away and the ref saw him. He got a yellow and was sent off. No-one outside of Arsenal will care because it was the right call.
 
It's pretty obvious that Rice is trying to get in the way of the free kick because he thinks he didn't commit the foul that was awarded to Brighton in the first place.

The little touch Rice makes on the ball is absolutely intentional and you can see how his eyes follow the ball.

Arsenal usually get away with these kind of incidents, so it's nice to see them getting pulled up for one of them.
 
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Tyrion said:
I've watched a few sports and the refs are never consistent. It's impossible to get it right every single time and even if you did, fan bias would mean no-ones happy anyway.

The only thing that's unique about football is how fans are hysterical in response to refereeing calls and scream about corruption whenever they don't get the throw in they wanted.

Rice kicked the ball away and the ref saw him. He got a yellow and was sent off. No-one outside of Arsenal will care because it was the right call.
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The refs are way more consistent with this stuff in sports where they aren't being dumb babies. It's super easy to enforce. Notice how players don't mob the ref anymore? Why did that stop?

Arsenal fans are right to point out the inconsistencies. Where they are coming from is wrong, i.e. the other didn't get cards so Rice shouldn't have been sent off. No he absolutely should have. They're just so pisspoor at upholding a standard. Fans are right to be mad.

I don't completely blame the ref on the pitch. The football associations and PGMOL are handicapping their refs. Estupinan picks up the ball behind Kavanagh. He doesn't see it but the camera do. Sports that deal with this kind of bullshit have more than one ref making calls such a giving cards out. For some reason football still doesn't despite there being a team of refs watching on camera.
 
Snow said:
The refs are way more consistent with this stuff in sports where they aren't being dumb babies. It's super easy to enforce. Notice how players don't mob the ref anymore? Why did that stop?

Arsenal fans are right to point out the inconsistencies. Where they are coming from is wrong, i.e. the other didn't get cards so Rice shouldn't have been sent off. No he absolutely should have. They're just so pisspoor at upholding a standard. Fans are right to be mad.

I don't completely blame the ref on the pitch. The football associations and PGMOL are handicapping their refs. Estupinan picks up the ball behind Kavanagh. He doesn't see it but the camera do. Sports that deal with this kind of bullshit have more than one ref making calls such a giving cards out. For some reason football still doesn't despite there being a team of refs watching on camera.
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The whole brighton team was mobbing the ref on this exact incident or do you mean in other sports ? :rolleyes:
 
Hate to side with Arsenal in any way but…if you’re going to set a precedent and send someone off in that manner you better as hell be consistent for the rest of the game with the other team. But once again, consistency for refereeing in football seems to be [insert John Travolta meme]
 
Powderfinger said:
Here's another good one from that game, in addition to the Joao Pedro incident.

Brighton foul, Estupinan literally picks up the ball and starts running away with it to delay a potential restart. No card given of course.

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It’s nice to see another team feel proper aggrieved and going into ridiculousness. I assure you it’ll probably be me at 6:30 tonight. :lol:

That is different though and something that happens all the time. Players will often just pick up the ball at their feet when the whistle goes, run and chuck it back. If Rice went to take the free kick and he picked up the ball as he was running to take it, and then ran with it and chucked it back you’d have a point.
 
Daydreamer said:
“Defending a break away”? The free kick is 10 yards from West Ham’s corner flag and the ball hadn’t even stopped moving yet.

I didn’t think it would be controversial to say that both instances are examples of kicking the ball away to delay the restart of the game, but there we go.
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Clearly I'm talking about the first incident where there was no card as that was the subject of your post.
 
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Berbasbullet said:
It’s nice to see another team feel proper aggrieved and going into ridiculousness. I assure you it’ll probably be me at 6:30 tonight. :lol:

That is different though and something that happens all the time. Players will often just pick up the ball at their feet when the whistle goes, run and chuck it back. If Rice went to take the free kick and he picked up the ball as he was running to take it, and then ran with it and chucked it back you’d have a point.
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Normally I ignore these incidents but I can't wait for the next time United fans use this thread to moan about a ref decision that's technically correct :angel:
 
Daydreamer said:
“Defending a break away”? The free kick is 10 yards from West Ham’s corner flag and the ball hadn’t even stopped moving yet.

I didn’t think it would be controversial to say that both instances are examples of kicking the ball away to delay the restart of the game, but there we go.
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The exact equivalent with a throw in would be an Arsenal player with a ball in his hands, arms back, about to launch it when a Brighton player knocks it out of his hands. Which would definitely be a booking.
 
Mogget said:
Normally I ignore these incidents but I can't wait for the next time United fans use this thread to moan about a ref decision that's technically correct :angel:
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:lol: all fun in being a football fan!

For what it’s worth I would be as annoyed as you are in this instance, like Dalot last season which was just outrageous, it’s the inconsistency that makes fans absolutely furious.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The exact equivalent with a throw in would be an Arsenal player with a ball in his hands, arms back, about to launch it when a Brighton player knocks it out of his hands. Which would definitely be a booking.
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Not with this ref. Here's yet another example from the same game of a similar incident which didn't result in a booking for the Brighton player

 
Mogget said:
Not with this ref. Here's yet another example from the same game of a similar incident which didn't result in a booking for the Brighton player

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Just seen this, it ain’t that similar and the ref was looking the other direction.
 
Mogget said:
Not with this ref. Here's yet another example from the same game of a similar incident which didn't result in a booking for the Brighton player

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Why do you guys keep showing such terrible examples?! Rice didn’t kick the ball the instant after the whistle blew. That happens all the time and it’s completely different to what Rice did. Show me the Arsenal player in possession of the ball, in the process of taking a free kick or throw in, only for a Brighton player to nick it off him. Because that’s what Rice was booked for.

What he did was actually quite unusual. It definitely didn’t happen again in yesterday’s game. I think it would be hard to find an example of it in any other game this season. And I would be amazed if you find an example of anyone ever doing it without being booked.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Just seen this, it ain’t that similar and the ref was looking the other direction.
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The only way it's not similar is that the Arsenal player didn't try and boot a moving ball like Veltman in a fake attempt to take a quick free kick. Otherwise it looks pretty identical to me.

Like you said, it's the inconsistency in applying these decisions that makes them so annoying

Pogue Mahone said:
Why do you guys keep showing such terrible examples?! Rice didn’t kick the ball the instant after the whistle blew. That happens all the time and it’s completely different to what Rice did. Show me the Arsenal player in possession of the ball, in the process of taking a free kick or throw in, only for a Brighton player to nick it off him. Because that’s what Rice was booked for.
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He wasn't in the process of taking a free kick because the ball was moving so it wouldn't have been valid anyway. That seems like a real stretch to me
 
Berbasbullet said:
Just seen this, it ain’t that similar and the ref was looking the other direction.
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I’m not sure that this decision warrants the kind of foaming at the mouth hysteria it’s getting. I’d liken it to when you get caught speeding. ‘The Police have likely seen multiple people doing it, so why have they chosen to set off after me?’

The answer is, it doesn’t matter. You transgressed, you were punished, and while it feels unfair because others have gotten away with it. If you hadn’t been doing it you wouldn’t be suffering the consequences.

I’d also add, Arsenal under Arteta have been fairly effective a shithousery and getting away with it, so on balance it’s probably about time it bit you.
 
TheReligion said:
When will Arteta start to be punished for leaving the technical area?
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It’s hilarious how their fans are bringing up the Pedro incident as some sort of injustice when their manager is breaking the rules in the exact same clip. Lego would be spending majority of the season in the stands if the refs weren’t giving him special treatment.
 
Mogget said:
The only way it's not similar is that the Arsenal player didn't try and boot a moving ball like Veltman in a fake attempt to take a quick free kick. Otherwise it looks pretty identical to me.

Like you said, it's the inconsistency in applying these decisions that makes them so annoying



He wasn't in the process of taking a free kick because the ball was moving so it wouldn't have been valid anyway. That seems like a real stretch to me
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He was clearly in the process of taking a free kick. Whether it was valid or not we never got a chance to find out because Rice prevented him from kicking the ball. The ref can’t penalise a defender for taking a free kick with a moving ball if the defender never gets a chance to kick the ball.
 
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