Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch

A year and a half unable to convince 3 different managers that he is a better option than McT, who is generally considered on here as one of the worst midfielders to play for us. Add looking extremely average at Everton, disappearing in the away games he played.

What exactly is it that people think he will bring in a deeper midfield role(doesn't have enough for an attacking player in the PL) He will work hard and he is technically proficient with his touch and first time passing. However, he is slow, weak and lacks running power. Maybe if had exceptional game controlling abilites or an expansive creative passing range you could work around his limitations but there has been precious few signs of it that or any leadership in his game, is generally an even safer passer of the ball than McFred, sideways and backwards. His strongest assets are his clever movement around the box, getting on the end of the things. Only part of his game that might be useful, but you are always going to want someone with more in that role.

Keep hearing he deserves a chance, but the reasoning behind that all goes back to that Ajax run, maybe we should buy Harry Winks, he had a good run in the competition that year as well.
 
I've made a effort of watching his games for Everton, when he has featured, and he simply hasn't been good enough.

He'll get a chance under Hag purely based on the fact of their past working relationship.
 
Bobski said:
A year and a half unable to convince 3 different managers that he is a better option than McT, who is generally considered on here as one of the worst midfielders to play for us. Add looking extremely average at Everton, disappearing in the away games he played.

What exactly is it that people think he will bring in a deeper midfield role(doesn't have enough for an attacking player in the PL) He will work hard and he is technically proficient with his touch and first time passing. However, he is slow, weak and lacks running power. Maybe if had exceptional game controlling abilites or an expansive creative passing range you could work around his limitations but there has been precious few signs of it that or any leadership in his game, is generally an even safer passer of the ball than McFred, sideways and backwards. His strongest assets are his clever movement around the box, getting on the end of the things. Only part of his game that might be useful, but you are always going to want someone with more in that role.

Keep hearing he deserves a chance, but the reasoning behind that all goes back to that Ajax run, maybe we should buy Harry Winks, he had a good run in the competition that year as well.
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This is why many Dutch players and Barca players didn't succeed in the PL. They are used to playing a different style of football from a very young age. It's now only with the arrival of Pep that sort of" right player in the right space at the right time" is getting implemented.
Not saying DVB will succeed but it's the main reason why they struggle. Especially at United as there is no one who can pass and no one who knows where to move and when to move. He is a DM at all. Neither is De Jong.
 
I guess we should just send Ten Hag the message that Caf has decided we have to sell him and he isn't good enough so he doesn't waste time, because Caf always knows the best. Why even bother getting a manager with such fantastic football knowledge we have from people here.
 
evil_geko said:
I guess we should just send Ten Hag the message that Caf has decided we have to sell him and he isn't good enough so he doesn't waste time, because Caf always knows the best.
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Donny deserves nothing from Utd fans until he earns it.

The best thing about Ten Hag when it comes to Donny is that there can be no more excuses and pity for him, perform or GTF.
 
evil_geko said:
I guess we should just send Ten Hag the message that Caf has decided we have to sell him and he isn't good enough so he doesn't waste time, because Caf always knows the best. Why even bother getting a manager with such fantastic football knowledge we have from people here.
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What are you on about with this lame sarcasm? The very purpose of every player thread and indeed the forum is to have an opinion.

The only thing that is happening is the majority finally acknowledging that his stay in English football has been appalling and his defenders are getting less and less as he fails to convince manager after manager and put in non performances. It's simply calling a spade a spade at this point, no expert analysis needed.

If ten Hag thinks he can get blood from a stone then good luck to him, he's going to be backed for a good while in whatever decisions he makes.
 
evil_geko said:
I guess we should just send Ten Hag the message that Caf has decided we have to sell him and he isn't good enough so he doesn't waste time, because Caf always knows the best. Why even bother getting a manager with such fantastic football knowledge we have from people here.
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Imagine getting this upset about a bunch of people not rating or wanting special treatment for a player who has quite simply failed miserably.
 
Lentwood said:
So what's your excuse for the 24-months prior to that?

This kind of nonsense is holding us back as a club. "Rashford is a world-class talent he's just better on the left/better on the right/better down the middle/playing injured/struggling mentally". No. He just isn't as good as some of you desperately wanted to believe.

Have you seen the latest Overlap interview with Gerard Pique and Gary Neville? Pique played for us 19-times and was basically allowed to leave because of one poor game against Bolton that convinced SAF he could never be a world-class PL defender. Back in the days we actually won stuff, players got one chance to impress. They didn't get 2 years and a loan move!

Now, obviously, I am not saying that we need to be that hasty but we do need to stop making these pathetic excuses. DvdB has had multiple chances to impress under various managers and has contributed nothing with competition from our worst starting midfield pairing in PL history. He's gone to Everton who are terrible and done nothing. If this lad makes a world-class PL midfielder, I'll eat my laptop and delete my account on here.

It annoys me so much because the lad gets more air-time on here than he's had minutes on the pitch! Wonder if Kleberson or Djemba-Djemba or Obertan had endless threads were posters argued for them 'just being given a chance'.
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Amen. We are nowhere near Ruthless enough. When you consider the depth of the top 3 we should have upgraded on Jones, Bailly/Lindelof, Matic, Lingard, Mata, Williams. there are other players who don't have a long term future (some who are starters) but for now why have we held onto these players so long? Can you see them part of a squad vying to win the CL? We hold onto tag along players who contribute little to the day to day acquisition of points, wins and cups. Just paying salaries for the sake of it. We need to move on and be ruthless.

golden_blunder said:
If he gets regular game time under ETH I suspect he will prove us all wrong. There’s a player in there
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What kind of player? tell me exactly what "player" you see in there? give me a comparison.

KirkDuyt said:
Bloody hell the overrating of this dude by some. He's nothing special and he never will be. He is actually Ten Hag's first real test to see if he has what it takes to work at the highest level of the sport. He has to offload this dud, even if he did well for him at Ajax. No room for pity. Donny had his chance and came up short, massively so.
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There is a supposed uncut gem every season that the manager is supposedly missing and it is always wrong. Very rarely does a player who cannot prove it while here, go on and do something elsewhere. Sometimes it just is what our eyes tell us. They either good enough or they are not.

Bondi77 said:
If he was average at Ajax then why were Real interested in him??
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They signed Hazard for 100m, Jovic for 60m, they make bad signings too but they didn't even try to sign dude.

amolbhatia50k said:
Not excited by the prospect of VDB playing for us next season. Looks like such a mediocre footballer. Maybe ETH can do something with us but I'm not expecting it. The chap looked lost at both United and couldn't even stand out at one of the worst Everton team in living memory.
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One of the least things I look forward to is "giving him a chance"

Bobski said:
A year and a half unable to convince 3 different managers that he is a better option than McT, who is generally considered on here as one of the worst midfielders to play for us. Add looking extremely average at Everton, disappearing in the away games he played.

What exactly is it that people think he will bring in a deeper midfield role(doesn't have enough for an attacking player in the PL) He will work hard and he is technically proficient with his touch and first time passing. However, he is slow, weak and lacks running power. Maybe if had exceptional game controlling abilites or an expansive creative passing range you could work around his limitations but there has been precious few signs of it that or any leadership in his game, is generally an even safer passer of the ball than McFred, sideways and backwards. His strongest assets are his clever movement around the box, getting on the end of the things. Only part of his game that might be useful, but you are always going to want someone with more in that role.

Keep hearing he deserves a chance, but the reasoning behind that all goes back to that Ajax run, maybe we should buy Harry Winks, he had a good run in the competition that year as well.
Click to expand...
He is a mix between current Lingard + current Alli (no goals and assists) but also Cleverly when used in a deeper role.

Foxbatt said:
This is why many Dutch players and Barca players didn't succeed in the PL. They are used to playing a different style of football from a very young age. It's now only with the arrival of Pep that sort of" right player in the right space at the right time" is getting implemented.
Not saying DVB will succeed but it's the main reason why they struggle. Especially at United as there is no one who can pass and no one who knows where to move and when to move. He is a DM at all. Neither is De Jong.
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not sure this is truthful :nono:

DOZENS of Dutch players featured regularly in the premier league for years, chalking up many appearances including the likes of;

Stam, Bergkamp, Gio, Van de Vaart, Ruud, Hasselbaink, Overmarz, Van De Sar, virgil van dijk, Van Persie, Gullit, Kuyt, Robben, Melchiot, Giji, Hans Segers, Michel Vonk, George Boateng, Nigel De Jong, Zenden, Daley Blind, Ken Monkou, Van Aarnholt, Tim Krul, De Zeeuw, Janmaat, Ake, Heitinga, Ed De Goey , Leroy Fer, Babel, Anita, Vorm, Collins John, Davy Propper

I would argue of all nations, Dutch are the most RELIABLE import to the premier league.

Ex Barca players include the likes of Cesc, Bellerin, Romeu, Yaya, Adama Traore, Arteta, Deulofeu, Alexis, Lucas Digne, Kiko Femenia, Martín Montoya, Andre Gomes, Pedro,
I am sure if other top players came they would do just fine.
 
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@Stacks watched him at Ajax, always thought he had a good understanding of the system and a good relationship on the pitch with the other players. He’s a player who is constantly on the move, moving the ball simply, finding pockets of space. Problem is that in England he hasn’t found teams on the same wavelength.
Im not saying for sure that he will definitely make it, I’m saying that ETH will give him a chance. Donny will already know what’s expected and should be able to help implement the system quicker. Whether he’s good enough at this level in the PL we will find out.
 
Bebestation said:
Its so funny how VDB or his hype can seem really irritating to you :lol:
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It's all the precious Ajax fans here lamenting the injustice of their sweet, amazing supertalented Donny being wasted simply because United isnt smart enough to optimally utilize his brilliance. Only Ajax and Johan Cruijff know how to play this game after all.

Or I'm just bitter Feyenoord never have their average workhorses sold to top clubs for over 40 million :wenger:
 
golden_blunder said:
@Stacks watched him at Ajax, always thought he had a good understanding of the system and a good relationship on the pitch with the other players. He’s a player who is constantly on the move, moving the ball simply, finding pockets of space. Problem is that in England he hasn’t found teams on the same wavelength.
Im not saying for sure that he will definitely make it, I’m saying that ETH will give him a chance. Donny will already know what’s expected and should be able to help implement the system quicker. Whether he’s good enough at this level in the PL we will find out.
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ok fair enough. I am a bit worried if we are trying to turn United into Ajax since they were not an all conquering team so maybe we need to sign a better version of a player like him
 
Moriarty said:
Speaking of which, What's RVP's kid like? I saw that he just signed a contract with Feyenoord.
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He's definitely promising. Elegant, great left foot, he's far too young to really judge though if you ask me. Everytime he does something well, Im obviously convinced that he's the new Robin :D
 
KirkDuyt said:
It's all the precious Ajax fans here lamenting the injustice of their sweet, amazing supertalented Donny being wasted simply because United isnt smart enough to optimally utilize his brilliance. Only Ajax and Johan Cruijff know how to play this game after all.

Or I'm just bitter Feyenoord never have their average workhorses sold to top clubs for over 40 million :wenger:
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Thank Johan Cruijff for Feyenoord winning the double too.
 
Stacks said:
ok fair enough. I am a bit worried if we are trying to turn United into Ajax since they were not an all conquering team so maybe we need to sign a better version of a player like him
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The bolded is the answer to this in a nutshell. For everyone who says he will flourish under ETH it is worth bearing in mind that at ajax ETH used what was available and just because Donny was part of his squad there does not automatically mean he can fill the same role playing for United in the PL. If it was that simple then Mourinho would have bought the Porto squad for Chelsea. I am sure he will get game time next season as a lot of players are leaving and he can be relied upon to understand what the manager wants but I am very doubtful that he will nail down a place in the long term and think it is far more likely that once the rebuild is complete he will be moved on to make room for someone better.
 
@Stacks

I'm not sure what this sentence means:

So were many who are non features today

In response to this:
lex talionis said:
There is no denying that Donny was a high impact player under ETH at Ajax.
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It's fair enough to argue one's opinion that Donny is shite, or at least that he was "shite in training" under Ole and therefore Ole -- who was sacked for incompetence, it should be recalled -- appropriately never gave Donny a proper chance in an actual competitive match, but it is ridiculous to suggest that Donny was shite under ETH at Ajax or that Ajax players today can't hack it in a top league like the PL or La Liga. Donny actually was outstanding under the manager who is now manager at Old Trafford.

A few players off the top of my head who come from the Dutch league and excelled in the prem:

Jaap Stam
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Luis Suarez
Robin van Persie
Christian Eriksen
Arjen Robben
Dennis Bergkamp

Donny has not proven himself to be mentioned in the same sentence as these players who came from the Dutch league, but it just can't be argued that the Dutch league is so inferior that who players who played in that league are unfit to ever play for the English prem.
 
lex talionis said:
@Stacks

I'm not sure what this sentence means:

So were many who are non features today

In response to this:

It's fair enough to argue one's opinion that Donny is shite, or at least that he was "shite in training" under Ole and therefore Ole -- who was sacked for incompetence, it should be recalled -- appropriately never gave Donny a proper chance in an actual competitive match, but it is ridiculous to suggest that Donny was shite under ETH at Ajax or that Ajax players today can't hack it in a top league like the PL or La Liga. Donny actually was outstanding under the manager who is now manager at Old Trafford.

A few players off the top of my head who come from the Dutch league and excelled in the prem:

Jaap Stam
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Luis Suarez
Robin van Persie
Christian Eriksen
Arjen Robben
Dennis Bergkamp

Donny has not proven himself to be mentioned in the same sentence as these players who came from the Dutch league, but it just can't be argued that the Dutch league is so inferior that who players who played in that league are unfit to ever play for the English prem.
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What I meant is many who were big players under ETH are fairly low key/not really making noise now.

I never said Dutch players could never ever hack the premier league. Look a few posts back. I myself quoted this


Stacks said:
not sure this is truthful :nono:

DOZENS of Dutch players featured regularly in the premier league for years, chalking up many appearances including the likes of;

Stam, Bergkamp, Gio, Van de Vaart, Ruud, Hasselbaink, Overmarz, Van De Sar, virgil van dijk, Van Persie, Gullit, Kuyt, Robben, Melchiot, Giji, Hans Segers, Michel Vonk, George Boateng, Nigel De Jong, Zenden, Daley Blind, Ken Monkou, Van Aarnholt, Tim Krul, De Zeeuw, Janmaat, Ake, Heitinga, Ed De Goey , Leroy Fer, Babel, Anita, Vorm, Collins John, Davy Propper

I would argue of all nations, Dutch are the most RELIABLE import to the premier league.
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The issue is the current crop of Dutch players and those playing over there are plain shite. Football moves in cycles
 
Stacks said:
What I meant is many who were big players under ETH are fairly low key/not really making noise now.

I never said Dutch players could never ever hack the premier league. Look a few posts back. I myself quoted this




The issue is the current crop of Dutch players and those playing over there are plain shite. Football moves in cycles
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Many thanks for the clarification, but is it not the case that quite a few players who have played under ETH at Ajax are quite decent footballers?

De Ligt
De Jong
Ziyech
Haller
Antony
Mazraoui
Timber
Gravenberch

We'll see how these players acquit themselves through the end of their careers, but if Donny can make a substantial contribution with players of this caliber it seems to me he deserves to be given a proper chance to contribute under the same manager at Old Trafford. If he flops then he flops, but FFS at least give the man a chance.
 
lex talionis said:
Many thanks for the clarification, but is it not the case that quite a few players who have played under ETH at Ajax are quite decent footballers?

De Ligt
De Jong
Ziyech
Haller
Antony
Mazraoui
Timber
Gravenberch

We'll see how these players acquit themselves through the end of their careers, but if Donny can make a substantial contribution with players of this caliber it seems to me he deserves to be given a proper chance to contribute under the same manager at Old Trafford. If he flops then he flops, but FFS at least give the man a chance.
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First of all, I don't know why you've lumped VDB in with all these players just because they've played under ETH at Ajax. Why not Veltman, Neres, Schuurs, Stekelenburg or Klaassen? It says nothing about their quality. It's like lumping Buttner in with Wayne Rooney because they played together.

Second, you're buying into the hype surrounding some of these players:
  • Antony is down 1 goal and 4 assists compared to last season. In fact he has 5 fewer goals and 8 fewer assists than Bergwijn did in his last full season at PSV.
  • Haller has scored 7 goals lesss than Luuk De Jong did in his last season for PSV.
  • Gravenberch has been left out by LVG for the Orange dress up party two times already in favour of Jordy Clasie (A Southampton flop who plays for AZ, ranked 5th in the league)
De Jong, Ziyech and De Ligt have done reasonably well (to varying degrees) at decent to great clubs. The other players have done nothing to deserve being put in the same bracket.

Mazraoui is great. I think he'll make it,, but then again, I had the same opinion on Memphis, so there's always a possibility Bayern Munich is just a step too far (like United is for Donny) and Sevilla ends up being his level. Gravenberch, Antony, Timber have talent, but right now, they're miles off being top club material.

I'll repeat what I've said before: In any given season there's usually only 1 or 2 players in the Eredivisie that could make it at the top level. The rest is massively overhyped, as was Donny.
 
VanDeBank said:
First of all, I don't know why you've lumped VDB in with all these players just because they've played under ETH at Ajax. Why not Veltman, Neres, Schuurs, Stekelenburg or Klaassen? It says nothing about their quality. It's like lumping Buttner in with Wayne Rooney because they played together.

Second, you're buying into the hype surrounding some of these players:
  • Antony is down 1 goal and 4 assists compared to last season. In fact he has 5 fewer goals and 8 fewer assists than Bergwijn did in his last full season at PSV.
  • Haller has scored 7 goals lesss than Luuk De Jong did in his last season for PSV.
  • Gravenberch has been left out by LVG for the Orange dress up party two times already in favour of Jordy Clasie (A Southampton flop who plays for AZ, ranked 5th in the league)
De Jong, Ziyech and De Ligt have done reasonably well (to varying degrees) at decent to great clubs. The other players have done nothing to deserve being put in the same bracket.

Mazraoui is great. I think he'll make it,, but then again, I had the same opinion on Memphis, so there's always a possibility Bayern Munich is just a step too far (like United is for Donny) and Sevilla ends up being his level. Gravenberch, Antony, Timber have talent, but right now, they're miles off being top club material.

I'll repeat what I've said before: In any given season there's usually only 1 or 2 players in the Eredivisie that could make it at the top level. The rest is massively overhyped, as was Donny.
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The "lumping" arose from the implication that because the Dutch league is crap that we shouldn't expect players who played well in the Dutch league to perform well in the English prem. But we know from observation that quite a few players have emerged from the Dutch league to perform well at top level clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany.

But of course no one is suggesting that because a footballer has excelled in the Dutch league that he therefore will excel in England. I'm only suggesting that excelling in the Dutch league at least presents the very real possibility -- not a guarantee, just a possibility -- that he will perform well in the English prem.

The only way to find out whether a player who performed well in the Dutch league will actually perform well in the English prem is to give that player a proper chance. If he flops, he flops. But what if he's given a chance and actually performs well? It seems to me that once a club has spent 35m in transfer fee and what looks to be about a 6m annual salary, being given a chance is entirely appropriate and not being given a chance is inappropriate. Perhaps it should be more bluntly stated: it would be fecking stupid to spend 35m plus another 30m (over 5 seasons) and not give the player a proper chance to prove himself.
 
VanDeBank said:
First of all, I don't know why you've lumped VDB in with all these players just because they've played under ETH at Ajax. Why not Veltman, Neres, Schuurs, Stekelenburg or Klaassen? It says nothing about their quality. It's like lumping Buttner in with Wayne Rooney because they played together.

Second, you're buying into the hype surrounding some of these players:
  • Antony is down 1 goal and 4 assists compared to last season. In fact he has 5 fewer goals and 8 fewer assists than Bergwijn did in his last full season at PSV.
  • Haller has scored 7 goals lesss than Luuk De Jong did in his last season for PSV.
  • Gravenberch has been left out by LVG for the Orange dress up party two times already in favour of Jordy Clasie (A Southampton flop who plays for AZ, ranked 5th in the league)
De Jong, Ziyech and De Ligt have done reasonably well (to varying degrees) at decent to great clubs. The other players have done nothing to deserve being put in the same bracket.

Mazraoui is great. I think he'll make it,, but then again, I had the same opinion on Memphis, so there's always a possibility Bayern Munich is just a step too far (like United is for Donny) and Sevilla ends up being his level. Gravenberch, Antony, Timber have talent, but right now, they're miles off being top club material.

I'll repeat what I've said before: In any given season there's usually only 1 or 2 players in the Eredivisie that could make it at the top level. The rest is massively overhyped, as was Donny.
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And who wouldve thought Denzel fecking Dumfries would be one of em. Id actually love it if United bought him.
 
lex talionis said:
@Stacks

I'm not sure what this sentence means:

So were many who are non features today

In response to this:

It's fair enough to argue one's opinion that Donny is shite, or at least that he was "shite in training" under Ole and therefore Ole -- who was sacked for incompetence, it should be recalled -- appropriately never gave Donny a proper chance in an actual competitive match, but it is ridiculous to suggest that Donny was shite under ETH at Ajax or that Ajax players today can't hack it in a top league like the PL or La Liga. Donny actually was outstanding under the manager who is now manager at Old Trafford.

A few players off the top of my head who come from the Dutch league and excelled in the prem:

Jaap Stam
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Luis Suarez
Robin van Persie
Christian Eriksen
Arjen Robben
Dennis Bergkamp

Donny has not proven himself to be mentioned in the same sentence as these players who came from the Dutch league, but it just can't be argued that the Dutch league is so inferior that who players who played in that league are unfit to ever play for the English prem.
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Didn't most of them came from other leagues? Or played in other leagues?
 
KirkDuyt said:
Feck that I was 1 year old when he won it for us :wenger:
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No one gave Feyenoord any hope at the start of the league. Serves Ajax right. I remember Ruud saying he had heard a lot about Johan but never believed the hype until he came to Feyenoord.
Great club. The first Dutch club to win the European Cup. I always thought Van Hanegem was underrated outside of The Netherlands.
 
Stacks said:
Amen. We are nowhere near Ruthless enough. When you consider the depth of the top 3 we should have upgraded on Jones, Bailly/Lindelof, Matic, Lingard, Mata, Williams. there are other players who don't have a long term future (some who are starters) but for now why have we held onto these players so long? Can you see them part of a squad vying to win the CL? We hold onto tag along players who contribute little to the day to day acquisition of points, wins and cups. Just paying salaries for the sake of it. We need to move on and be ruthless.


What kind of player? tell me exactly what "player" you see in there? give me a comparison.


There is a supposed uncut gem every season that the manager is supposedly missing and it is always wrong. Very rarely does a player who cannot prove it while here, go on and do something elsewhere. Sometimes it just is what our eyes tell us. They either good enough or they are not.


They signed Hazard for 100m, Jovic for 60m, they make bad signings too but they didn't even try to sign dude.


One of the least things I look forward to is "giving him a chance"


He is a mix between current Lingard + current Alli (no goals and assists) but also Cleverly when used in a deeper role.


not sure this is truthful :nono:

DOZENS of Dutch players featured regularly in the premier league for years, chalking up many appearances including the likes of;

Stam, Bergkamp, Gio, Van de Vaart, Ruud, Hasselbaink, Overmarz, Van De Sar, virgil van dijk, Van Persie, Gullit, Kuyt, Robben, Melchiot, Giji, Hans Segers, Michel Vonk, George Boateng, Nigel De Jong, Zenden, Daley Blind, Ken Monkou, Van Aarnholt, Tim Krul, De Zeeuw, Janmaat, Ake, Heitinga, Ed De Goey , Leroy Fer, Babel, Anita, Vorm, Collins John, Davy Propper

I would argue of all nations, Dutch are the most RELIABLE import to the premier league.

Ex Barca players include the likes of Cesc, Bellerin, Romeu, Yaya, Adama Traore, Arteta, Deulofeu, Alexis, Lucas Digne, Kiko Femenia, Martín Montoya, Andre Gomes, Pedro,
I am sure if other top players came they would do just fine.
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I don't know about Jovic but Hazard at the time was not a bad signing as he was the best player in the Premier League but it just did not work out.
We may as well say that AWB and Harry were better signings than Varane and Sancho because at least they were decent in their first season for us.
 
golden_blunder said:
@Stacks watched him at Ajax, always thought he had a good understanding of the system and a good relationship on the pitch with the other players. He’s a player who is constantly on the move, moving the ball simply, finding pockets of space. Problem is that in England he hasn’t found teams on the same wavelength.
Im not saying for sure that he will definitely make it, I’m saying that ETH will give him a chance. Donny will already know what’s expected and should be able to help implement the system quicker. Whether he’s good enough at this level in the PL we will find out.
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I think it is more like saying if we have a working system (whatever system it may be), he would play better just like so many others would too.

But the thing is even if he plays better in THAT system, would he become a class player who can help us win titles? I think he would not. I hope I am wrong on him because it would save us a lot of money and God knows we need both quality and quantity in the midfield.
 
lex talionis said:
Many thanks for the clarification, but is it not the case that quite a few players who have played under ETH at Ajax are quite decent footballers?

De Ligt
De Jong
Ziyech
Haller
Antony
Mazraoui
Timber
Gravenberch

We'll see how these players acquit themselves through the end of their careers, but if Donny can make a substantial contribution with players of this caliber it seems to me he deserves to be given a proper chance to contribute under the same manager at Old Trafford. If he flops then he flops, but FFS at least give the man a chance.
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I'm referencing the team that he got to the Semi's of the CL and who we beat in the Europa. Donny's generation. These guys its hard to say. Ziyech is not a big player at Chelsea and is a downgrade on Willian. Haller we have already seen in England and was a "non feature" if you know what that means now. How many have gone on to hack it at a top club?
 
lex talionis said:
The "lumping" arose from the implication that because the Dutch league is crap that we shouldn't expect players who played well in the Dutch league to perform well in the English prem. But we know from observation that quite a few players have emerged from the Dutch league to perform well at top level clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany.

But of course no one is suggesting that because a footballer has excelled in the Dutch league that he therefore will excel in England. I'm only suggesting that excelling in the Dutch league at least presents the very real possibility -- not a guarantee, just a possibility -- that he will perform well in the English prem.

The only way to find out whether a player who performed well in the Dutch league will actually perform well in the English prem is to give that player a proper chance. If he flops, he flops. But what if he's given a chance and actually performs well? It seems to me that once a club has spent 35m in transfer fee and what looks to be about a 6m annual salary, being given a chance is entirely appropriate and not being given a chance is inappropriate. Perhaps it should be more bluntly stated: it would be fecking stupid to spend 35m plus another 30m (over 5 seasons) and not give the player a proper chance to prove himself.
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historically yes but my point was that the level has gone down. When I was growing up I used to envy the Netherlands team who had the like of Jimmy Floyd and Makaay as back up strikers
 
@Stack

Based on what FC Utrecht fan said on reddit that ETH did sign former players and they performed very well but became crap when ETH left, I think the perception about the dutch league players doesn't matter much in ETH's case as long as the manager can make the player looks like top players in the manager's system and benefit us as team to win trophies.
 
All I’m suggesting is that footballers who have excelled for a top club in the Dutch league shouldn’t be assumed to be incapable of performing at a high level for United.
 
Surely it's nothing to do with an assumption at this point. Van de Beek has been hanging around the prem for a number of years and seems unable to convince any manager that he's worthwhile, and he's completely failed the eye test as well. What Dutch players have done or can do is not that important, it's the mounting albeit disparate evidence about this particular player that is more worrying.
 
Abraxas said:
Surely it's nothing to do with an assumption at this point. Van de Beek has been hanging around the prem for a number of years and seems unable to convince any manager that he's worthwhile, and he's completely failed the eye test as well. What Dutch players have done or can do is not that important, it's the mounting albeit disparate evidence about this particular player that is more worrying.
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Since when is 21 months a number of years? It hasn't even been 2 years yet.
 
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