Wtf
"i can't get vaccinated because a 2k year old book written by a bunch of old men says I shouldn't"
Vaccination of Squad
- Thread starter westmeath
- Start date
Wtf
"i can't get vaccinated because a 2k year old book written by a bunch of old men says I shouldn't"
That’s not happening now and won’t ever happen in the future.
Re vaccinating children, all kids get a load of different vaccines. Why are you dreading that? Looking after your kid’s health is a routine part of being a parent (arguably one of the easier parts!)
You will still have your rights to refuse, in the UK we have common law which you break if you cause Injury, Harm or Loss. Everything else are acts and status, they can lawfully request you get it but you will have your rights to refuse. So a pregnant women doesn’t want it because of fear it will harm the baby do you propose they throw her in prison?
Fair enough, I thought we’d need yearly boosters plus I thought people were advocating for passports for entry to places. I’m curious to how it will all work and what passports will actually be needed for, other than passing ports. maybe needed for pubs and events but not supermarkets you mean?
I know kids get vaccines, still doesn’t have to make me feel comfortable that my children are going to need a vaccine that’s new to the world and wasn’t required just 2 years ago. Isn’t fear of the unknown fair? That felt like hell of a snarky reply, as if I don’t know that looking after my child’s health is part of being a parent, you think that needed to be said? nice little reminder why I try to avoid these kind of threads and asking questions or offering opinions.
I’ll just butt back out now
I don't see anyone getting thrown in prison. I do see restrictions, some of which might remain in place for a while. International travel is an obvious one, so might access to some fun activities - like restaurants etc that perhaps won't impact many young mums in that position.
The more complex issue is where it gets into job related things like vaccines for health and social care workers - where the rights of the individual do clash with the rights of the vulnerable. The same might apply to some group activities like exercise groups and antenatal classes - which the epidemic stopped, but can now restart with care.
That said, I don't think any of our players - not the men or the women - are currently pregnant. So not really an issue.
If you haven’t got children yet by the time they’re old enough to need a covid vaccine it will have been on the market for longer than many medicines you will give your kids over the course of their lives and monitored for safety in far more people than almost any of them. Hence I think “dread” is a strange word to use in that context.
I have got yes so the by the time they’re old enough doesn’t apply.
I felt like shit after my first jab I wouldn’t like my little un to go through that (yes Covid is worse). there are horror stories about people having the vaccine, no matter how few, there is a risk. Have children been tested or trialled yet to see how they handle side effects? There’s quite a few things to be worried about or not look forward to, dread may be a bit much but it’s not a nice feeling. That’s how I feel about it even though I clearly know that looking after my child’s health is a routine part of being a parent.
and the passport to buy beer is never going to happen now or in the future, what do you mean by that, it is being pushed for isn’t it?
You do have a point. It's always a bad thing to rely on enforcement in health. There's a massive body of evidence to suggest it's generally counterproductive. Information and persuasion are always plans A, B and C, and for very good reasons. It normally works too, for the simple reason that health advice is generally sensible and well-founded, and consequently easy to explain and argue for.
That being said, there's a couple of particularly difficult aspects of this one. One is that the health effects of the choices people make fall on others and on society at large, as much as on themselves. That speaks against the legitimacy of choice, both from an ethical and a practical perspective. Secondly, for vaccines to achieve herd immunity you have to reach a certain proportion of immunity in the population. If you don't, then you lose protection collectively. This is another strong argument that the choice each person makes is not just for themselves. Thirdly, there's the fact that you're up against a significant number of people you can't really reach with information and arguments, because they've basically stopped listening to reason. It doesn't help how much information Public Health England puts out there, because they don't read it, or don't believe it if they do. They are literally beyond reason.
So, what do you do? It's not easy.
I'd pity how laughably stupid and ignorant anti-vax people are if it wasn't so massively damaging to the world around them.
Yes. No medicine would be licensed for use in children without the safety being formally assessed in a clinical trial.
Well, I say “yes” but that’s only true for medicines that are relatively recently licensed. There’s a shit load of medicines regularly used in children over the last several decades that were developed before the more rigorous regulations applied to these vaccines came into place.
This is going to get really contentious in the UK, where as you probably know the government have announced that vaccination will be compulsory for all English care home staff (and this will be enshrined in legislation, which means that care home employers will have a legislative basis to rely on for dismissing employees who refuse the jab). In this case, the government has decided not to provide a belief-based exemption (because it would undermine the policy), but an Employment Tribunal will not necessarily agree. We will definitely see challenges to the new rules.
Just adding my tuppence.
I'm not anti vax. My kids all had their jabs as and when (prior to covid). I have disabled lad who was vulnerable so had his covid fairly early. Have to say if I had known some stuff when he had his I may have been a bit reluctant.
I've had covid, was fairly mild for me, my dad and my siblings (all had it). An uncle (lives abroad) had it more severely but got better. A mate is in intensive care currently with it here in UK.
I've had both my Pfizer jabs. Dad's had his. Sister isn't having hers currently (already had covid). Again she isn't an antivaxxer and has a kid who has had all jabs previously.
I mentioned on another thread. My mum was against having her jab but we convinced her that it would be good. She finally had it and a few days later died after having a stroke and falling down the stairs. She died on the Thursday night/good Friday morning and had had the AZ jab. Saturday (after the good Friday they did the whole holding off the AZ jab for certain age groups due to risk of stroke and clots).
Initially it took us a while to get things sorted for the funeral (covid and it being a bank holiday weekend). They wanted to do a post mortem. Mum had lived for about 20 minutes after the fall and spoken with paramedics and doctor who was called. She had said she was going upstairs and had been unable to take the last couple of steps up and had fallen. This inability to climb the last couple of stairs was put down to stroke. And ultimately nonpost mortem was carried out.
We will never know if it had anything to do with the jab we simply believe it was her time. But it has raised the question if I'm honest whether the AZ jab was maybe a factor.
I'm sure folk will say what they will on here but living through it I can see why my sister wants to wait until more information is available for side effects etc. We are 8 siblings and most if us have had the jab as and when our age range was able to. My sister was with mum when she died (as she was living with them whilst her own house was being sold). The rest of us live in our own houses within 15-20 minutes distance in car. Maybe it was the trauma of seeing what mum went through. Her fall meant broken bones and then the medical teams doing the resuscitation, something the rest of us were spared.
The sister I speak of is in HR but at senior levels and has workdled for the NHS in a senior HR capacity. Some of the info she is using to argue against us when we say she needs to get vaccinated is coming from doctors and nurses. I know some have already responded to another poster by saying "talk to my ... who saw kids die" etc. But I don't believe the notion that some doctors and nurses are not sold on the vaccines is untrue.
Incidently my own work brings me in contact with care workers and nurses. And honestly there are one or two who are "anti jab". There is currently one I speak to regularly who hasn't been jabbed and refuses. She has been told that nonjab may mean no job. Apparently the unions are involved. Note please this is a conversation with her and I don't know the details or even if true.
I'm not anti vax. My kids all had their jabs as and when (prior to covid). I have disabled lad who was vulnerable so had his covid fairly early. Have to say if I had known some stuff when he had his I may have been a bit reluctant.
I've had covid, was fairly mild for me, my dad and my siblings (all had it). An uncle (lives abroad) had it more severely but got better. A mate is in intensive care currently with it here in UK.
I've had both my Pfizer jabs. Dad's had his. Sister isn't having hers currently (already had covid). Again she isn't an antivaxxer and has a kid who has had all jabs previously.
I mentioned on another thread. My mum was against having her jab but we convinced her that it would be good. She finally had it and a few days later died after having a stroke and falling down the stairs. She died on the Thursday night/good Friday morning and had had the AZ jab. Saturday (after the good Friday they did the whole holding off the AZ jab for certain age groups due to risk of stroke and clots).
Initially it took us a while to get things sorted for the funeral (covid and it being a bank holiday weekend). They wanted to do a post mortem. Mum had lived for about 20 minutes after the fall and spoken with paramedics and doctor who was called. She had said she was going upstairs and had been unable to take the last couple of steps up and had fallen. This inability to climb the last couple of stairs was put down to stroke. And ultimately nonpost mortem was carried out.
We will never know if it had anything to do with the jab we simply believe it was her time. But it has raised the question if I'm honest whether the AZ jab was maybe a factor.
I'm sure folk will say what they will on here but living through it I can see why my sister wants to wait until more information is available for side effects etc. We are 8 siblings and most if us have had the jab as and when our age range was able to. My sister was with mum when she died (as she was living with them whilst her own house was being sold). The rest of us live in our own houses within 15-20 minutes distance in car. Maybe it was the trauma of seeing what mum went through. Her fall meant broken bones and then the medical teams doing the resuscitation, something the rest of us were spared.
The sister I speak of is in HR but at senior levels and has workdled for the NHS in a senior HR capacity. Some of the info she is using to argue against us when we say she needs to get vaccinated is coming from doctors and nurses. I know some have already responded to another poster by saying "talk to my ... who saw kids die" etc. But I don't believe the notion that some doctors and nurses are not sold on the vaccines is untrue.
Incidently my own work brings me in contact with care workers and nurses. And honestly there are one or two who are "anti jab". There is currently one I speak to regularly who hasn't been jabbed and refuses. She has been told that nonjab may mean no job. Apparently the unions are involved. Note please this is a conversation with her and I don't know the details or even if true.
Please excuse my ignorance here, are'nt the covid vaccines "legal" under the emergency rulings?
I forget the details but would they be "not legal" without covid being the emergency it has become with the current trials?
May have it wrong but if the state of emergency was lifted wouldn't they need more rigorous trials before being used?
As I say excuse the ignorance here just looking for info from folk who seem to know a hell of a lot more than I do
The type of emergency authorisation they received varies from region to region and all of the vaccines will shortly receive full approval. Which involves exactly the same requirements as approval of any other medicine.For example, the FDA expect to give full approval to the Pfizer vaccine as early as next month.
Cheers. I'll try and find that without a sub
Thanks again.
Are you are in the USA? the main quotes are from experts in USA. Reason I ask is I'm wondering if the hesitancy is based on some of what's happened previously with vaccines?
I'm thinking the swine flu deaths when a vaccine was rushed through.
It's interesting reading people's thoughts on here and the "trust in science" arguments. Not that I don't trust science generally but specifically I am not as trusting.
Let me clarify that. It's not science that I have the issue with it's where I am and who the scientists are. India and Pakistan etc have their fair share of deaths from vaccines, usually because they are contaminated or not the actual thing so if I was "back home" (my dad's from Kashmir and I was born there) I would have been a lot more reluctant to have any jabs.
I read an article (can't find it as I wanted to post it) about Russian uptake being low based more on history. When you've had mass genocide by leaders I can see why they maybe suspicious.
Reports I’ve seen are that az is not recommended for children, newspaper report this morning that Australia are considering using children in trials of moderna so I assume that they haven’t yet. Is Pfizer the one that’s been trialed on children.
I didn’t think it was as straight forward as you make out
I agree it's not straight forward, especially if you're just the average Joe with kids and not a microbiologist or doctor etc.
I'm neither of the above but like to think I'm educated enough to try and gather information and make a fact based conclusion. Some of the information out there makes it difficult at times.
Again I'll see if I can find it but I read an article a while back which suggested that kids with no underlying conditions were "safer" getting covid and recovering than side effects from certain covid vaccines. The percentages were ridiculously low mind you 0.000 something (in the article) and may even have been bullcrap for all I know but as parents reading the headlines is it any wonder parents would be troubled?
Add to that the Facebook and conspiracy theorists and it becomes a recipe for disaster
That wouldn't surprise me: there seems to be extremely few (as in extremely few) kids who get severe Covid symptoms, whereas there will always be a certain (albeit tiny, of course) percentage (permillage, more like) who react (severely) to any kind of vaccine.
If the number is statistically insignificant, so to speak, the argument has to be that there is a clear upside involved - namely that vaccinated kids will be significantly less likely to transmit the virus (even if they're not actually affected by it themeselves).
That said, I obviously understand that you're worried as a parent - about this whole bloody mess. There's so much contradictory information out there, for one thing.
Yes. As far as I know Pfizer is the only one licensed for use in kids. So far anyway.
To be fair, the kids issue is tricky here because - unlike measles, mumps etc - the condition we’re aiming to prevent is pretty benign in children. I’m extremely sympathetic with anyone who is in two minds about vaccinating their kids. I’m going to get my 12 year old done but mainly because he’s starting secondary school next year and I don’t want him missing a couple of weeks of school if he tests positive. Plus he tends to get absolutely flattened by viruses that barely touch his sister, so I’m worried he’ll be one of the tiny minority that might get very sick. I’m definitely more comfortable with him getting exposed to the vaccine than I would be with him getting exposed to the virus.
Kids aside, it’s the vaccine hesitant adults I have much less patience with. Refusing to get a vaccine because they’re worried about long term side effects, thus increasing their chance of catching a virus with a well established short term side effect of an absolutely horrible death (that is far far more common than serious vaccine side effects) and long term side effects that are completely unknown.
Even if you ignore the greater good rationale that decision is a complete no-brainer. At least it should be.
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Ok thanks for the info. My initial post you replied to was about my kids, not myself, all adults in the family are double jabbed now, some az, some Pfizer, you also said there you’re extremely sympathetic to parents thinking of getting their kids vaccinated, which is where my dread comment came from, we are making a choice for them when it may be better for them not to have the vaccine but better for the greater good.
So I put my child through the vaccine and there is a risk there no matter how small, to protect others which is all well and good, meanwhile Tina down the street has no vaccines and marches about without a mask on. Grips my shit that to be honest.
The kids are my main importance and what’s going to be best for them.
Yeah, CBC here in Canada has done several reports on that. Vaccine uptake in Russia is low because Russians deeply mistrust their government given their past, and it's the Russian vaccine that's available to them.
In Canada and the US, Pfizer has been approved for vaccinations of youth aged 12-17, and Moderna is with the health authorities for final approval. Trials are currently underway for both (not sure about AZ or others) for vaccination of kids aged 6 months - 11 years (Pfizer) and aged 5-11 (Moderna; might be younger as well but I haven't found that). Based on that work, my wife expects that our kids (both in the 2-11 range) can get vaccinated by the end of the year or beginning of 2022 - if the trials don't encounter any issues, of course.
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Cavani stars in vaccination adverts
Selflessness. It's a word you hear non-stop when you ask the Manchester United coaching staff about Edinson Cavani. Professional follows closely.
The Uruguayan has become a key figure in the COVID vaccination drive in South America. Cavani chose to be vaccinated on live TV in the hopes of 'persuading teenagers, adults, anyone really, to get the vaccine'.
He has since appeared in several videos made by the Pan American Health Organistion explaining the importance of the vaccine and urging people to get vaccinated. Cavani received no fee for these videos, and does them in his personal time.
Cavani has built a private gym in his family home in Salto in order to stay in peak physical condition, and has also been supporting young defender Nahuel Tuya - a promising athlete who has recently been forced to retire from the game due to mental health issues - as he adjusts to a world without football.
Selflessness. It's a word you hear non-stop when you ask the Manchester United coaching staff about Edinson Cavani. Professional follows closely.
The Uruguayan has become a key figure in the COVID vaccination drive in South America. Cavani chose to be vaccinated on live TV in the hopes of 'persuading teenagers, adults, anyone really, to get the vaccine'.
He has since appeared in several videos made by the Pan American Health Organistion explaining the importance of the vaccine and urging people to get vaccinated. Cavani received no fee for these videos, and does them in his personal time.
Cavani has built a private gym in his family home in Salto in order to stay in peak physical condition, and has also been supporting young defender Nahuel Tuya - a promising athlete who has recently been forced to retire from the game due to mental health issues - as he adjusts to a world without football.
Didn’t think it was possible to admire him any more.
, let him retired at UnitedWhat a great guy.
Maybe we can get him back in some capacity when he stops playing. Cavani and Mata in backroom roles - we'd be nice guy United.
Whattaman.
If the anti-vaxxers were half as smart as they think they are, they wouldn't have trouble understanding the Bayes theorem.
Ah fair enough, I just assumed that because they are flying all over the place that they would have been considered a high risk job and been eligible far earlier. Though I haven't paid any attention to the eligibility roll out in the UK.
What a man
There is definitely a risk benefit ratio to be considered in kids. The reason information here all over the place is because it's not clear yet.
One example would be the incidence of myocarditis after the pfirzer 1st shot in 12-17 yr olds. Initially there were fears about that. Subsequently turns out that incidence is still way lower than covid and it's issues.
I have a 10 y/o. I see the worst of Covid. As such I will vaccinate him as soon as it's approved.
I am not sure vaccinating kids makes a huge difference. Particularly when adult vaccination rates are not great like in parts of USA and obviously rest of world. That's way more important
I think the consideration has to be risk of covid vs risk of side effects. My gut feeling is vaccine side effects will be low and definitely lower than covid issues even if covid in kids is not as dangerous as in adults.
I'm sorry but I'm increasingly fed up by this idiocy. One of our employees died of Covid last week, he was an anti-vaxx Covid denier, and I deeply regret not making more of a fuss about vaccination. It's always idiots who think they're smart who fall into this godforsaken trap and unfortunately our own players aren't immune to this idiocy.
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Thanks for the detailed reply, makes sense and it’s that feeling of risk balance I wasn’t sure of. My gut agrees with you, I’ll keep looking out for more info on it.
With The Athletic reporting that less than 40% of the league are vaccinated and also reporting that English players FAR outnumber overseas players in refusing the vaccine, it's good to see Maguire going against the grain.
My captain shall always be jabbed.