That's the problem with politics today. Successful governance is about bipartisan cooperation (see Bill Clinton) and not one party coercion. Sometimes you only get 50% of what you want in exchange for something else you previously couldn't get.
US Politics
- Thread starter Nick 0208 Ldn
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That's the problem with politics today. Successful governance is about bipartisan cooperation (see Bill Clinton) and not one party coercion. Sometimes you only get 50% of what you want in exchange for something else you previously couldn't get.
This x 10000000000000000
Surprised to see Tester voting no.
That only applies to folks who you're positive aren't gonna change the rules on you in the future.
In either case, when there is room for cooperation it should be pursued. Otherwise the public don't have access to a variety of services that are relied on. The "we need to have a fight to determine the soul of the country" approach that was championed by Steve Bannon is not a viable way forward.
What is wrong with the compromise vote? Funding runs out again on Feb 8th, at least a month left for DACA to expire. Democrats have now made it clear to the Republicans that they are willing to shut down the government and will have leverage again on Feb 8th.
knowing the turtle he'll go nuclear then
I'm fully in your corner...I'm not disagreeing with you on that whatsoever. My point was that McConnell and his croonies allowed CHIP to expire ON PURPOSE so they could use it as a bargaining tool this time around. They also knew Dems wanted DACA and the President didn't so they used the lives and wellbeing of millions of kids and thousands of people to further a really partisan agenda. I'm not saying the Dems are 100% clean here it's just that we all knew that the GOP doesn't negotiate in good faith all while adding that nut job Trump into the mix.
It was especially evil from McConnell tweeting out Dems have a choice between American kids and DACA immigrants as if Dems were holding up the CHIP bill for so long. fecking cnut
If the god they invoke so often actually exists they're going straight to hell.
At this point I think it's clear that the Dems like Trumps policies.
Yep, we need to stop thinking of the current GOP bunch in the same vein as ordinary, rational political actors. They've shown time and time again they're willing to disrupt just about anything to get what they want and to spite the Dems. Doing so hasn't hindered them but handed them all branches of government.
This is a huge feck you to the womens' march, where DACA was a popular rallying point.
Oh come off it, are there no women that are impacted by the Government shutdown? What would you potentially do? Close government indefinitely till there is a deal on DACA?
Probably should have a word with the cnuts who voted for Trump and Stein instead of 'understanding' their vote. Vote like a maniac and then moan like a maniac when a majority party implements their evil agenda.
Are are 47 democrats in the Senate. That's enough to block this vote. "cnuts who voted for Trump and Stein" are irrelevant to this vote.
Ignore the causality and moralising, look at the calculations if that suits you better. I'm interested in whether people like this will bother organising or voting in the midterms. Look at how the unenthusiastic/decimated unions contributed to the Dem wipeout in the midwest. The Republicans give their base the horrible abortion laws, the obstruction of Obamacare, etc, that they like. The Dems aren't as loyal to their base.
No, they are not. 47 democrats should not be held responsible for the plight of DACA immigrants. DACA program was created by a Democratic president and was shut down by a Republican president. This March deadline was not imposed by Dems, but by the Republicans. Republicans also have a majority in Senate, House and have a 5-4 advantage in the Supreme court, with Trump in the White House. 47 Democrats not only have DACA as their main cause, but they also have constituents who are impacted by the govt shutdown. It's easy to criticize the vote if you are not directly impacted by the shutdown.
Okay. In which case, please stop telling people not to vote for candidates they actually believe in. If the democrats are going to be evil, then they have no business pointing to the other side and saying "vote against them".
Half the unions sided with Trump because all of them believe in immigration hurting US jobs. Just wake up and smell the coffee, unions are fine to have their rights taken away as long as cheap labour doesn't flood the market and environmental regulations are taken away. That's exactly the problem with the WaPo and the media now, listening to the vocal minority instead of the voting people in the midwest.
There were two people on the ballot. You don't get a magic pill solution to war mongering, immigration, environmental regulations, inequality gap in one candidate. Even Sanders doesn't get close to any of that. I have no intention of stopping this 'if you didn't vote for Dems, then you are an idiot', especially who now cry about DACA and complain that Dems are not fighting their corner. Feel free to ignore me.
Neither of those candidates are in the senate. This was a senate vote. Tens of millions of people voted for the democrats in the senate, and those voters are overwhelming pro-DACA. If the senate democrats are willing to turn a blind eye to those immigrants, don't be surprised when fewer people turn out to vote for them.
"Half the unions voted Trump"
Abut the unions themselves: I think other than the police unions and one construction union, every union endorsed Hillary int he general. Not only that, other than the Nurses union, every one endorsed Hillary vs Bernie as well. If the unions were so bothered about trade and immigration, they would have chosen Bernie and then Trump.
About union members:
So, wrong.
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Eh? Hers is +14, his is +10.
Also
that someone's checking.
Also
that someone's checking.@fishfingers15
I just went back and looked at historic union voting records. There was an openly racist candidate in 1964 (Goldwater) who set up the strategy the Reublicans have used since then. LBJ was also racist but it was known that he would probably support a civil rights bill. So the choice, around racism, was clear.
That election had the largest gap for union voters between Dems and GOP: 73-27 (+48). Source. At the same time, college grads were only +4 for the Dems, professionals/business owners were +8, while manual workers were Dem +42. (same source).
Why do you think that was the case, and the gaps are much smaller/non-existent nowadays? Do you think an explanation other than race might explain the trend?
Edit: equally interesting data from the 1968 Nixon Soutehrn strategy/"law and order": union voters went for the Dem +27, manual workers +15, while prof/business went -22 (they voted in favour of Nixon). Union members finally flipped in the 1972 landslide (-8, though in fairness the overall election was -24).
I'm not going to bother looking up more numbers, but I do know they want back to the Dems under Carter in 1976. Then this happened:
Again, do you think there is another factor that might fit the union vote better than race?
I just went back and looked at historic union voting records. There was an openly racist candidate in 1964 (Goldwater) who set up the strategy the Reublicans have used since then. LBJ was also racist but it was known that he would probably support a civil rights bill. So the choice, around racism, was clear.
That election had the largest gap for union voters between Dems and GOP: 73-27 (+48). Source. At the same time, college grads were only +4 for the Dems, professionals/business owners were +8, while manual workers were Dem +42. (same source).
Why do you think that was the case, and the gaps are much smaller/non-existent nowadays? Do you think an explanation other than race might explain the trend?
Edit: equally interesting data from the 1968 Nixon Soutehrn strategy/"law and order": union voters went for the Dem +27, manual workers +15, while prof/business went -22 (they voted in favour of Nixon). Union members finally flipped in the 1972 landslide (-8, though in fairness the overall election was -24).
I'm not going to bother looking up more numbers, but I do know they want back to the Dems under Carter in 1976. Then this happened:
And union voters went almost 50-50 for Reagan in 1980.
Again, do you think there is another factor that might fit the union vote better than race?
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They are Pro DACA, but they are also pro-government running. It's never one or another. Do you think it's an easy choice to shut down government as long as it takes for a DACA resolution? Do you even how realize how absurd it sounds? It's all well and good for the twitter brigade to be up in arms, but look at the poor families affected by the government shutdown. How are we even suggesting it's the only way out for the Dems? Also, it's a 15 day funding to expire on Feb 8th. It's not as if Dems have just rolled out and let the DACA die out.
"Half the unions voted Trump"
Abut the unions themselves: I think other than the police unions and one construction union, every union endorsed Hillary int he general. Not only that, other than the Nurses union, every one endorsed Hillary vs Bernie as well. If the unions were so bothered about trade and immigration, they would have chosen Bernie and then Trump.
About union members:
So, wrong.
That's great to know, but I recently heard a politico podcast in which a lot of union members voted for Trump in the midwest and many unions which endorsed support for a democratic candidate, still made it clear to it's own members to use their best judgement. Not in every state mind you, the opposition was almost 100% in states like Wisconsin but states like Pennsylvania which went to Republican had a strong union support for Trump.
I've told you this before, I never will understand the 'I'm moving my party to the left because I want Palestinian liberation' brigade anyway so I may be totally wrong, but I find it galling that people who threw their votes in protest now having a go at Chuch Schumer and the Democrats because of this 3 week interim spending bill. I find them the worst of hypocrites. Sorry
So you think she just gave away those cars for nothing ? That's a jokeEh? Hers is +14, his is +10.
Also
Also my genuine first reaction was having to remind myself that it wasn't bees.
There's no reason why both DACA and government funding can't pass right now. Their base is blaming the republicans for the shutdown, much like the republican base is blaming the democrats. And what's the point of pushing it a fortnight down the line?
Obama's Latino vote dep director:
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Also Bernie's press sec:
Edit:
Also Bernie's press sec:
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I agree with that but only with the caveat that Dems get a deal on it before the next deadline. If they don't, they should try another shutdown.
It is about cooperation but that assumes both sides are capable of it. Trying to cooperate with Republicans (nevermind Trump) is a waste of time if Dems actually want to do any good. Republicans represent about 30% of the US population and couldn't care less about the rest.
I'm sorry Silva, I really can't understand this post. DACA is not passing because the Republicans won't vote for it. McConnell doesn't have any guarantees that Ryan will ask for a House vote with any sort of immigration deal. Fortnight gives additional time for everyone to work it out. What is exactly the Dems are supposed to do here? Keep the government closed and affect millions?
This is a sensible strategy
Berbatrick, If race was a factor, don't you think the gap between Dem votes and the Trump votes will be higher? With his rhetoric about black people and immigrants, Trump should hover around LBJ. The fact is, unions may endorse a Democrat because everyone wants a pie of the party money, but if all union votes are in block, the gap will be much higher.
I'm too young to remember the exact platform Reagan ran, but Trump clearly ran with anti-union platforms and still gained so much vote mainly because of two points, promise of more job creation by cutting environment regulations and safeguarding American jobs by being anti-immigration. DACA and middle class are right now not compatible. Why is the Democratic platform muddled right now? They have to be pro-choice, pro-immigration, pro-environment, pro-America, pro-jobs, pro-peace, pro-military etc etc
This could work in the Dems favor if the right people deliver the right message clearly and repeatedly until Feb 8. Shutting the government down in and of itself isn't a result. Getting DACA done, getting CHIP refunded, those are actually policy wins. The likes of Schumer and Pelosi need to rally their troops to go out and put the feet of McConnell, Ryan, and Trump to the fire. They've agreed to end a minor weekend shutdown that more people are far more likely to support if the GOP do the same BS again after a very public light was shined on the issue. I don't know that Trump will want the negative press of looking like they've clearly forced another shutdown by refusing to negotiate. That's an improvement in the Dem position, along with the CHIP win...now they need to stick to their guns on Feb 8 or it will be worthless. Then you can start de-registering if you want.
Yeah, not sure what she was aiming for there. Bad optics. But we can hardly expect someone who has spent 7 years in solitary confinement to get all the social cues.