US Politics
- Thread starter Nick 0208 Ldn
- Start date
The police are allowed to stop you doing something illegal. They shouldn't come in full military gear using excessive force though. And you also shouldn't go to jail for long stretches for acts of non-violent protest even if they are "illegal".
You dont have to be jailed or sentenced or arrested. A veiler citations on one's record is enough to act as deterrent.
Charges can range from anything from resisting arrest (whatever their definition of it) up to inciting violence etc
Yes it's legal to charge them, but question should be asked is this appropriate offer some protest?
You can protest, it's your right but we can cite you.
Charges can range from anything from resisting arrest (whatever their definition of it) up to inciting violence etc
Yes it's legal to charge them, but question should be asked is this appropriate offer some protest?
You can protest, it's your right but we can cite you.
Your last paragraph: to clarify, are you hinting that students must be allowed to occupy university buildings as long as they want to? The police (just regular police) shouldn't be called in after a while? Is that what your point is?
I have no idea, and as I said before, don't care about affirming some insane general principles about buildings.
In this case, there was no need for them.
To follow from that poster's original logic, this event, in the face of other atrocities being committed in the 80s, can only be explained by White/Boer hatred.
...
So the cops stood aside yesterday and let the mob have its way with the UCLA protestors. I shared some of the videos. The media then did their usual
I've said this before, but the main advantage of a free press and democratic elections is that pointing to media lies or govt repression automatically puts you in crank conspiracy theorist territory. When control is informal and unwritten, it's virtually impossible to identify.
Protests - and mass protests - are one of the best and most powerful weapons a democracy to try and influence policy. Elections are rare, but expressing public sentiment in that way is an effective tool.
Universities obviously house a population that is particularly primed for such protests, due even down to physiology of the people there. It has always and hopefully will always be thus.
As several have said, Columbia's leadership did the wrong thing. The police should never have been called. I don't really think that's up for debate. De-escalation and an avoidance of violence should always be the perogative. There are plenty of similar protests you're not reading about because they're just peaceful protests.
The Biden administration (and to be fair, most administrations in western countries) has made a rod for their own backs which makes such protests an incredibly difficult situation to address. Which is good, it should make the contrast sharper, and hopefully make the protests more impactful.
All of that is true. I don't even think it's controversial.
Where things get a little more difficult is around stuff not being discussed on here imo, because of the nature of the Gaza/Israel discussion becoming so all in or nothing. If a protest around almost any other topic deliberately invoked the ending of a people, that would be met with some pushback. If a leader explicitly called for murdering those that disagree with them, it would give pause to some observers about that leader's actions, and those of his/her group. But not in this case. If the protests involved a group of people who had literally and not long ago almost been wiped out of existence, there would probably be some understanding of why there's a sensitivty to calling for certain terms. But not today.
I have to hope the collective amnesia around why the world is so sensitive to anti-semitism is just generational. It is not anti-Palestinian or pro-genocidal to say that. Calling for a ceasefire, an end to needless Gazan deaths does not require that. The path to an actual, longer peace actually necessitates nuance, complex opinions and compromise. But that is not allowed at the moment. Righteous indignation is the only path forward, and if you're not with us you're genocidal scum who deserves no quarter.
When discussion was still permitted in the proper Israel thread, I tried to point out that 'don't kill babies' is not an answer to a problem spanning generations. And that view was brushed aside, because, I assume, it's very easy to simply say 'don't kill babies' and feel better.
All this time has passed and I see almost no-one proposing any kind of solution. No one even wants to talk about solutions anymore. They want the conflict, the violence, the pathos. And so it shall continue.
Universities obviously house a population that is particularly primed for such protests, due even down to physiology of the people there. It has always and hopefully will always be thus.
As several have said, Columbia's leadership did the wrong thing. The police should never have been called. I don't really think that's up for debate. De-escalation and an avoidance of violence should always be the perogative. There are plenty of similar protests you're not reading about because they're just peaceful protests.
The Biden administration (and to be fair, most administrations in western countries) has made a rod for their own backs which makes such protests an incredibly difficult situation to address. Which is good, it should make the contrast sharper, and hopefully make the protests more impactful.
All of that is true. I don't even think it's controversial.
Where things get a little more difficult is around stuff not being discussed on here imo, because of the nature of the Gaza/Israel discussion becoming so all in or nothing. If a protest around almost any other topic deliberately invoked the ending of a people, that would be met with some pushback. If a leader explicitly called for murdering those that disagree with them, it would give pause to some observers about that leader's actions, and those of his/her group. But not in this case. If the protests involved a group of people who had literally and not long ago almost been wiped out of existence, there would probably be some understanding of why there's a sensitivty to calling for certain terms. But not today.
I have to hope the collective amnesia around why the world is so sensitive to anti-semitism is just generational. It is not anti-Palestinian or pro-genocidal to say that. Calling for a ceasefire, an end to needless Gazan deaths does not require that. The path to an actual, longer peace actually necessitates nuance, complex opinions and compromise. But that is not allowed at the moment. Righteous indignation is the only path forward, and if you're not with us you're genocidal scum who deserves no quarter.
When discussion was still permitted in the proper Israel thread, I tried to point out that 'don't kill babies' is not an answer to a problem spanning generations. And that view was brushed aside, because, I assume, it's very easy to simply say 'don't kill babies' and feel better.
All this time has passed and I see almost no-one proposing any kind of solution. No one even wants to talk about solutions anymore. They want the conflict, the violence, the pathos. And so it shall continue.
I'm not going to tag people but I've seen several posters doubting the reasons, the ligitimacy, the worth, the historical significance of the protests, and this video just popped up in my feed.
It's Bernie Sanders giving a speech in response to the protests and the administrative action taken. I know that some don't like Bernie but I think the video is important because:
- He gives an historical analysis
- He has a long history of protesting himself
- He is a Biden supporter and will almost certainly back him in the election
- He is a Jewish man, amidst a backdrop of a large number of jewish voices that have lead the way in speaking out against the US and Israeli action since October the 7th.
Jewish voices that have been smeared as antisemitic by right wing media, liberal media, The ADL, Republicans, leading democrats like Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi. Protesting Israel does NOT require "Jewish cover" to lend it legitimacy and that's not what I'm doing. However you can't ignore the courageous example set by Jewish people that resist in the face of oppression on this issue and every other issue. They show up every time under attacks to their Jewish identity and even as antisemitism rises.
It's Bernie Sanders giving a speech in response to the protests and the administrative action taken. I know that some don't like Bernie but I think the video is important because:
- He gives an historical analysis
- He has a long history of protesting himself
- He is a Biden supporter and will almost certainly back him in the election
- He is a Jewish man, amidst a backdrop of a large number of jewish voices that have lead the way in speaking out against the US and Israeli action since October the 7th.
Jewish voices that have been smeared as antisemitic by right wing media, liberal media, The ADL, Republicans, leading democrats like Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi. Protesting Israel does NOT require "Jewish cover" to lend it legitimacy and that's not what I'm doing. However you can't ignore the courageous example set by Jewish people that resist in the face of oppression on this issue and every other issue. They show up every time under attacks to their Jewish identity and even as antisemitism rises.
There seems to be a lot of similarities to the anti-Vietnam protests and demonstrations from the 60's and 70's. Predominantly younger people protesting, hard crackdown from authorities, protesters smeared with labels (Communists then, pro-Hamas now), etc. Perhaps it's a superficial analysis, but seems to be more of the same.
The degree to which the older generations in the US venerate and support Israel is a sickness of their body politic. It's obviously enhanced by a large degree of Islamophobia. The schism between the younger and older generation on this topic is bound to create friction for the foreseeable future.
The degree to which the older generations in the US venerate and support Israel is a sickness of their body politic. It's obviously enhanced by a large degree of Islamophobia. The schism between the younger and older generation on this topic is bound to create friction for the foreseeable future.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. The only information I can find regarding the UCLA protest that calls for anything is this:
Perhaps you are referring to some other comments I haven't seen or a different protest, let me know.
The entirety of the Israel/Palestine conflict does not need to be solved in order to prevent Israel from committing its current atrocities.
"The outside agitator".
Was referring to the Columbia protests, where the leader was quoted as saying: "You should be thankful I'm not murdering zionists" and numerous signs and references to intifadas and death to zionists have been photographed.
TBH I've not followed the UCLA protests as closely, will need to read up on them now. Pretty shocked there's a hardcore, violent pro-Israeli movement, definitely haven't seen that mobilised elsewhere to date.
It's historical. There has always been such a force (for decades) when the Palestinian issue was raised in public. Certain very famous academics had to have police protection only twenty years ago when giving speeches on the conflict for precisely that reason.
Interesting, I didn't know that. You typically hear more about academics being scared of violence from their views against Islam, rather than against Judaism.
Oh yes, I wasn't aware that Khymani James was such a prominent figure. Definitely a bad look for him and at the very least it shows poor judgement. I read his statement on his x page and he seems genuinely contrite but with such extreme language I can't blame anyone for being less forgiving than myself. He should be nowhere near the movement and the CUAD have seemingly made it clear that his words are completely unnacceptable.
On the intifada point, here is a video that I found quite enlightening with Mehdi Hasan explaining more about what the term can mean in different contexts.
That said I don't know enough about it to opine and I'm sure there have been incidents of violent speech related to it and violent threats against zionists, I just haven't seen enough to believe that the violent aspects are a significant element of the student protests. I accept that it's use is debated and controversial to some people. That's not to say that any incident should be ignored but should be placed in context within the overall sentiments and aims of the protesters.
The few protest encampments that I have seen documented online have all shown a strict written policy of behaviour that is expected of anyone entering the camp. I saw examples of people being thrown out for not following the rules. They've had their messaging pretty tight from everything I've been following.
Is it really a violent specifically pro-Israeli movement? Or just the usual right wing thugs looking to crack "antifa" heads?
I mean they're seen brandishing Israeli flags. Whether they're bonafide Israeli supporters, or using their flag as a rallying prop to provoke and taunt the pro-Palestinians protestors is anyone's guess.
There is at least one video going round of violent racism from Israel supporters attacking students, this was at the same event that the ADL's Jonathan Greenblatt spoke at . I won't post it because it's disgusting. All the key words here will bring it up.
Just seems strange that there might be violent pro-Israeli thugs ready and waiting to mobilise in the US, when they've had basically no need to for decades. I could well be missing something though. Maybe they've been out cracking heads on the regular but it's not being reported on?
Jewish students have been stopped from entering campus by the Pro-Palestinian protestors. This is why there are counter protests and they are entirely justified.
https://youtube.com/shorts/lqhsIgpTCqA?si=I2tPZATFCs6waRFk
Why do the pro-Palestinian protestors wear face masks? Weird.
Why do the pro-Palestinian protestors wear face masks? Weird.
You should read up on the Jewish Defence League of the late 60s/early 70s. Founded by Meir Kahane of course. Now I’ve no idea if there are any material links between this crowd and that long-defunct organization but it would be extremely unsurprising to find that some of them are fans of Kahane.
Oh no, here comes the hasbara.
Are you saying that counter protesting is justified in principle, or are you saying that the counter protestors who violently attacked the protest were justified?
What a shameful moment of history currently taking place. These politicians who have been yapping on about disruption have not a single word to say about the 100+ scumbags who were bought in to attack protesters.
And yet Jewish students are manning every one of the student Pro-Palestinian protests that I have seen documented online (UCLA, Brown, etc.) . I think your wording/framing of the situation - to focus on the Jewishness of anyone being stopped might be misguided. I have seen no evidence of specifically Jewish people being deliberately targeted in the way you suggest. I'm happy for you to provide evidence to the contrary.
If it's the Eli Tsives incident you are refering to then you might like to know that he had already been flagged as a social media agitator before he approached the camp. I only mention this because it the one example I've seen being spread around the media and inaccurately reported on.
Do you believe that the violence we are seeing displayed by the counter protests is justified?
With the exception of New York, LA has the biggest Jewish presence anywhere outside of Israel, so the attack on protestors wasn't particularly surprising. Also, the area of LA where UCLA is located isn't far from Beverly Hills where there's a massive display of Israeli flags planted along Santa Monica Blvd to commemorate 10.7 victims. The area from Westwood to Beverly Hills in particular has a high Iranian Jewish population.
Edward Said's office at Columbia incidentally was set on fire in the '80s and he was under death threats pretty much all of his life in the US.
Jessica Seinfeld and Bill Ackman both funded the counter-protest at UCLA. Apart from the violence, some of the protestors there played the sounds of children crying on speakers to torment the anti-genocide students at night. It is a tactic used in Gaza by the IOF to lure people into the open and kill them.
I would question if they were ex-IDF soldiers like the one who sprayed chemicals on protestors months ago before wondering about right-wing thugs.
Everyone should just get on with their lives and take the fisting we are all getting from governments and the rich.
Never protest, don't say a word, they have our best interests at heart and are acting for the greater good. We are just too stupid or emotional to see it.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Never protest, don't say a word, they have our best interests at heart and are acting for the greater good. We are just too stupid or emotional to see it.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
There were Lehi flags outside Columbia
"LAPD just shot a protester in the fecking face. A psycho with the 40mm gun is just pointing the shit at everyone. The center light is attached to the 40mm launcher".
https://x.com/nosferatusexgod/status/1786014219265294716
The victim:
https://x.com/nosferatusexgod/status/1786014219265294716
The victim:
"LAPD just shot a protester in the fecking face. A psycho with the 40mm gun is just pointing the shit at everyone. The center light is attached to the 40mm launcher".
https://x.com/nosferatusexgod/status/1786014219265294716
The victim:
Serves him right for disrupting Graduation Ceremonies. After all, that's the biggest travesty and criminal act here.
It’s so bizarre seeing the ‘land of the free’ and ‘home of the brave’ cannibalise itself over students protesting. How is this any different to an authoritarian government’s handling of protests? The amount of shite decrepit Biden has said about Putin and he’s no better (re protesting).
Is it really that different from the Vietnam war or civil rights protests?
They've been here before and historically, the protestors seem to win.
Protestors always seem to lose in the short term by way of getting arrested, fined, or beaten up, and more recently losing their jobs and the like. Some such as those you listed may be eventually vindicated, but there are also recent examples of protests that haven't really amounted to much in terms of tangible change - thinking of everything ranging from occupy wall street to the string of protests from Trayvon Martin through George Floyd.