Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag

Didn't we have Reguilon until January and then Shaw from was it December until February?
He was always ill or injured, which is why he completed 90 minutes just twice. We signed a left back who'd spent most of his last season injured to replace our injured left backs.

But I'm not able to argue with you so unfortunately we'll just have to leave it there.
 
It is a very influential propaganda department that forces the club the play with over 40 combinations at the back, with no left back at all for around 75% of the season, and without his key players combined ever having been available.

He'll probably go, but he has definitely been dealt a bad hand.
This 40 combinations *have seen numerous figures used but lets go with 40) a large proportion was not forced, we have not had only 2 (or fewer) CBs available at any one time all season, many of the back 4 combinations have been choices made by ETH, like benching Varane for a couple of months, playing the speedy Amrabat at LB, but yeah lets say 40 forced combinations to spin this to look like ETH has done everything he can in the face of unsurmountable odds.... so answer this then, why? if the back 4 has been such a problem has ETH left them so exposed, playing a 4-1-5 formation for most of the season.... if as you say the back line has been the issue (and it has not, the back line has actually defended pretty well) then surely this highlights ETH's flaws as a manger because it seems he has been doing his utmost to expose them
 
It is a very influential propaganda department that forces the club the play with over 40 combinations at the back, with no left back at all for around 75% of the season, and without his key players combined ever having been available.

He'll probably go, but he has definitely been dealt a bad hand.
Did it also force the fraud to NOT play our best defender against City at home based some made-up bullshit that he quickly went back on in the Liverpool away and Bayern home games?

No, I didn't think so. Some of you lot really would buy a bridge off this guy morning and night each and every day and keep doing it despite drowning because there is no damn fecking bridge.
 
He was always ill or injured, which is why he completed 90 minutes just twice. We signed a left back who'd spent most of his last season injured to replace our injured left backs.

But I'm not able to argue with you so unfortunately we'll just have to leave it there.

There were only 5 match day squads he wasn't fit enough to be a member of, 20 match days during his time at the club. There were days Dalot was preferred even though Reguilon was fit and on the bench. And of course we had Shaw available for most of the games between late November to late February. So it definitely wasn't 75% mate, and I think it's fair to say we've established that between August-February we had a LB available for the majority of games. It's only really the last 3 months we've had to make do with Lindelof, Dalot and Wan Bissaka filling in at LB.

I'm not arguing mate, this is a discussion forum, this is how it works. But if you don't like discussing things and/or having your views/claims challenged then fair enough I suppose.
 
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My view is that its not 1 persons fault, changing the manager on its own wont fix the issues and turn us into title challengers. Without a proper structure in place we're setting any manager up to fail and it wont work, in my view.

We wouldn't be changing the manager on his own and nobody expects to challenge next season.

I have no interest in your moral analysis of Ten Hag but at least it's clear now that you have a personal vendetta against him.

The point here is that he was completely failed by the board over Greenwood with a major Uturn just before the window shut.

I had no issue with Greenwood going out loan, the problem was the timing and not bringing anyone to replace him.

Going into a season with just Hojlund & Martial as striker options was always likely to end badly, I said as much all summer.

You're working off the assumption that Greenwood would have performed under ten Hag. He's had an okay season in La Liga.

Weghorst and Martial were enough to get top 4 last season. Højlund has been an upgrade on Weghorst. Again, there's no excuse for our 5 main attackers only scoring 33 PL goals between them.

At least we now know that you're not a fence sitter. You lean more towards ten Hag.

Thank feck the board did a U-turn after public pressure. One of the few things the club has got right since 2013. Boooooo. Morals.

ten Hag is a questionable individual. There's not getting around it. From Promes, Overmars and Greenwood. Dodgy stuff.
 
Granted we’ve had a lot of injuries but it’s Martinez and Shaw have been the standout injuries. Bruno v palace perhaps and maybe Varane and throw in Hojlund’s injury just as he was hitting form. But our injuries have mainly been out of form players we don’t miss. And our injuries have nothing to do with our -3 GD in the attacking sense.
 
At this rate we are going with "ETH in" posters, we don't even need a coach next season. As long as we have a good football structure set up by Ineos we will play good football. Don't blame the manager even though it was so obvious that tactics is the problem and not the structure (yes, it's partly a problem) when you are outplayed by Palace and toe to toe with fecking Coventry.
 
At this rate we are going with "ETH in" posters, we don't even need a coach next season. As long as we have a good football structure set up by Ineos we will play good football. Don't blame the manager even though it was so obvious that tactics is the problem and not the structure (yes, it's partly a problem) when you are outplayed by Palace and toe to toe with fecking Coventry.
If you give any manager 5 years at our club, regardless of performances, there’s a chance that he will turn into Sir Alex Ferguson.

No club or manager has ever had to adapt to injuries in key positions, until Ten Hag at United.

C’mon, don’t you know all of this already?
 
We joke but it seems like some people really think that way.
Having SAF in charge for 26 years was truly a blessing for the club. But at the same time that prolonged period of success unfortunately warped the minds of many United fans (to be fair, including myself as well for some time) who have gotten wrong ideas of what it takes to be a successful manager at a club.
 
Did it also force the fraud to NOT play our best defender against City at home based some made-up bullshit that he quickly went back on in the Liverpool away and Bayern home games?

No, I didn't think so. Some of you lot really would buy a bridge off this guy morning and night each and every day and keep doing it despite drowning because there is no damn fecking bridge.

I don't believe that this is a fair representation of my argument, not the facts, but since I can't argue with you, we'll just have to leave it where it lies.
 
There were only 5 match day squads he wasn't fit enough to be a member of 20 match days during his time at the club. There were days Dalot was preferred even though Reguilon was fit and on the bench. And of course we had Shaw available for most of the games between late November to late February. So it definitely wasn't 75% mate, and I think it's fair to say we've established that between August-February we had a LB available for the majority of games. It's only really the last 3 months we've had to make do with Lindelof, Dalot and Wan Bissaka filling in at LB.

I'm not arguing mate, this is a discussion forum, this is how it works. But if you don't like discussing things and/or having your views/claims challenged then fair enough I suppose.

I would love to continue discussion, but unfortunately I don't know you. Which means I don't know whether or not continuing this discussion will lead to you calling me names. All I know is that if you do decide to do so, it will be me that suffers the consequences.
 
This 40 combinations *have seen numerous figures used but lets go with 40) a large proportion was not forced, we have not had only 2 (or fewer) CBs available at any one time all season, many of the back 4 combinations have been choices made by ETH, like benching Varane for a couple of months, playing the speedy Amrabat at LB, but yeah lets say 40 forced combinations to spin this to look like ETH has done everything he can in the face of unsurmountable odds.... so answer this then, why? if the back 4 has been such a problem has ETH left them so exposed, playing a 4-1-5 formation for most of the season.... if as you say the back line has been the issue (and it has not, the back line has actually defended pretty well) then surely this highlights ETH's flaws as a manger because it seems he has been doing his utmost to expose them

I don't think I can argue this point either unfortunately. There are some points in here I think are maybe fair and some that I am probably not able to say anything about. We'll have to leave that there unfortunately.
 
The problems exposed in our opening game of the season have not been resolved, not a single one. He has had his first choice players available at times but it made no difference, he is totally incapable of solving even simple structural issues within the team. Not being able to change tactics or admit when his plan is not working is nothing to do with the hierarchy or larger issues at the club, it is entirely down to the manager. The level of incompetence combined with arrogance that he displays weekly makes him for me the worst manager of the post Fergie era and his attitude is frankly an insult to the fans.
Concise and well said. Although, it spans back to the start of preseason.
 
The players and injuries are the problem, not the manager. How many managers have these players gotten sacked now? Change takes time. Look at Arsenal. People were crying for Arteta to be sacked a few years ago.
 
You're working off the assumption that Greenwood would have performed under ten Hag. He's had an okay season in La Liga.

Weghorst and Martial were enough to get top 4 last season. Højlund has been an upgrade on Weghorst. Again, there's no excuse for our 5 main attackers only scoring 33 PL goals between them.

At least we now know that you're not a fence sitter. You lean more towards ten Hag.

Ten Hag actually performed miracles to get Top4 with a decrepit Martial and bargain bin Weghorst as his main strikers last season. He was lucky that Rashford delivered the best season of his life to paper over our vast deficiency upfront that goes back to the Ronaldo fiasco.

Again you are totally missing the point (probably deliberately), that Ten Hag was then completely shafted by Arnold et al over Greenwood last summer.

Whether Greenwood would have performed (he's had a very good season in Spain IMO) and your moral tangents are completely irrelevant to the fact that Ten Hag's whole summer of squad planning upfront was completely undone in the final weeks of the transfer window by the club U-turn.

That our managers are set up to fail by incompetence at board level is a recurring theme and Ten Hag is no different, the hope is that the new regime would do better.
 
I would have given a chance if we wouldnt have crashed completely lately. We had an ok spell this season and if that trend continued, ok. But we now have not just a few issues, but a ton, and that makes it impossible for him to stay
 
I would love to continue discussion, but unfortunately I don't know you. Which means I don't know whether or not continuing this discussion will lead to you calling me names. All I know is that if you do decide to do so, it will be me that suffers the consequences.

It wouldn't mate plus the forum has rules for that sort of thing.

But no worries I think I understand now.
 
:lol: fair point, but I think it was the closest we've been to a recognisable style of play that we've seen here - so I'm holding on to it!

Well in the CL some pretty impressive ones beating Real and Juve. In the league PSV had players like Gakpo, Dumfries, Malen who are European level. Feyenoord had Senesi and Sinisterra who are doing well in the Prem. It's not as cut and dry as most people think, they didn't even qualify for the CL before he came in. I have no problem in saying how shite he's been here, but not sure why we're so dismissive of what he did previously all of a sudden.

No, it happens all the time. Klopp didn't want Salah, he wanted Brandt and the DOF stepped in and the rest is history. I think we could see improvement with a better reshaping of the squad, that doesn't mean I am not appalled at how we played against Palace and not concerned with his decision making and set up with what he has.

He is clearly stubborn, much like LVG, but LVG isn't a bad manager and with the players in his vision he has had success. Now much like LVG, is that vision how United want to play? I think Ten Hags is closer to a United style that LVGs ever was, but if Wilcox agrees with the principles Ten Hag espouses, then we have to believe he can purchase players to suit that. It does mean not letting him pursue De Jong again and probably investing in a CB good enough on the ball as Martinez, because we can't rely on him to be fit.

Again, I will repeat, this doesn't mean I want him to stay at all costs. I would prefer Tuchel and we buy players for Tuchel and the agreed vision. I do NOT want to sack him to bring in Potter or Southgate to do that.

Come on, bud. One freaking CL run to the semi-finals where they got beaten by Poch's Spurs is not a proof of anything. Plenty of smaller teams have similar CL runs from time to time. It's not something unique to ETH and that Ajax team.

No doubt we would be better than this season from hell if we get a fitter and a better squad next season. However, that is true with anyone. Again, I keep coming back to the same point (sorry for being a pedant), can we envisage challenging for the bigger trophies under him based on the two seasons he has been here? The answer for me is a clear NO. That's why I don't think it makes any sense to let him be in charge next season. We'd waste another season going nowhere. I rather we get a younger, more ambitious coach who can build towards making us challengers in 2-3 years.

I am not that keen on Tuchel. He is a good coach and a decent track record but I would really like us to go with someone younger this time. I mention it every other post of mine that I would love it if we go for either McKenna or Motta. I think both would be excellent options.

I also don't buy this assertion that there is no one available. Yes, there is no obvious choice like a Pep or a Klopp that we could hire, but there are plenty of young coaches that we could go for provided a good structure can help them with the squad clear out and recruitment.
 
I can give 2 reasons not to sack ETH - one is the injuries and the second is the development of young players. But when you come to the stage that you don't want to watch United-games - that's when a manager has to go.
Playing young players is not the same as developing young players. Sure, it's better than a manager not playing them at all, but developing these youngsters the right way is actually one of the reasons I want ETH gone. The way he is utilising Mainoo in particular is almost the exact opposite of how he should be developed. We finally have a young player coming through who is tailor-made to playing and contributing in a dominant midfield, and the manager has no interest whatsoever in playing that way. Instead he just plops him in the middle of this chaos that his tactics demand. There's no midfield structure, he's not learning positional discipline, there's little interplay between players...it's just shit football that has no benefit and ultimately could lead to him not developing properly. Hojlund and Garnacho also, to a lesser extent.
 
Playing young players is not the same as developing young players. Sure, it's better than a manager not playing them at all, but developing these youngsters the right way is actually one of the reasons I want ETH gone. The way he is utilising Mainoo in particular is almost the exact opposite of how he should be developed. We finally have a young player coming through who is tailor-made to playing and contributing in a dominant midfield, and the manager has no interest whatsoever in playing that way. Instead he just plops him in the middle of this chaos that his tactics demand. There's no midfield structure, he's not learning positional discipline, there's little interplay between players...it's just shit football that has no benefit and ultimately could lead to him not developing properly. Hojlund and Garnacho also, to a lesser extent.

Indeed, to hear the way some waffle on you'd think Garnacho and Mainoo were just 2 average youth players that Ten Hag has 'developed' into top talents.
 
1 cup, 2 x Fa cup finals, last season best defensive record in the league. Then there are all the outside issues he has dealt with. This word incompetence again I’ll repeat how can anyone get much more out of this collection of players even without the injuries?
We conceded 10 more than City and Newcastle. :rolleyes:

The system fails in part because the defenders don’t step up leaving a massive gap, Bruno and McT only care about moving forward and don’t drop in to space to plug that space. Then they are lazy to get back. We also lose the ball too easily in stupid places because some players aren’t good enough. Don’t even want to get started on Rashford.
Last I saw, our defensive line this season is deeper than it ever was under Ole. And we've done it all season long. So it's obviously a deliberate tactic by ETH. Just like pushing two midfielders very high, something that McTominay has never done before in his career but you seem to to be saying he's randomly decided to do this season? And that all our other midfielders do as well, whether it's Mainoo, Mount or Eriksen? It's blatantly what ETH is telling them to do.
 
Comparing ETH’s situation to Artetas is the most comparable. A big club falling away after a post legendary manager. Arteta was almost sacked at the same point as ETH is now, they lost a semi v Villarreal and he was accused of being tactically inept, poor signing etc.

Arteta finished

8th
8th
5th
2nd
2nd (likely this season)

Cleared out some shite, but crucially they have a good football structure at Arsenal for a few years now. Give ETH one more season, but my fear is he’ll be gone by November and it will be another scrap for CL football with more ups and downs than the Yorkshire Dales . . .
 
Come on, bud. One freaking CL run to the semi-finals where they got beaten by Poch's Spurs is not a proof of anything. Plenty of smaller teams have similar CL runs from time to time. It's not something unique to ETH and that Ajax team.

No doubt we would be better than this season from hell if we get a fitter and a better squad next season. However, that is true with anyone. Again, I keep coming back to the same point (sorry for being a pedant), can we envisage challenging for the bigger trophies under him based on the two seasons he has been here? The answer for me is a clear NO. That's why I don't think it makes any sense to let him be in charge next season. We'd waste another season going nowhere. I rather we get a younger, more ambitious coach who can build towards making us challengers in 2-3 years.

I am not that keen on Tuchel. He is a good coach and a decent track record but I would really like us to go with someone younger this time. I mention it every other post of mine that I would love it if we go for either McKenna or Motta. I think both would be excellent options.

I also don't buy this assertion that there is no one available. Yes, there is no obvious choice like a Pep or a Klopp that we could hire, but there are plenty of young coaches that we could go for provided a good structure can help them with the squad clear out and recruitment.
Smaller teams that have, their managers have generally been pretty good!

I don't disagree with your assessment, but there is a bit of me that does think he could - albeit a very small part. I just think we need to set the vision above the manager and the core of the squad, then find an ambitious coach that matches. I just don't see anyone that fits with the players currently and unsure what we've decided we're aiming for as a style of play. I don't see how we can make an informed decision when going for a young and inexperienced coach - hence why I'd be for Tuchel instantly.

I think it's too soon for McKenna, Motta would be great, but he's likely off to Juve. I'd like Iraola, but I think he needs another season. Seb Hoeness looks like the next big bundesliga manager and Nice's Farioli looks very interesting and in the INEOS group. They all are very unlikely to be available/want to come this summer, we aren't attractive to a young coach as we have no structure. I think we have at least have to have a year of good structure before we become the hottest job on the planet and the options we can go for widen massively. That's why I am pro Tuchel, as he has pedigree to command respect and also help an inexperienced/newly formed football operations team
 
Ten Hag actually performed miracles to get Top4 with a decrepit Martial and bargain bin Weghorst as his main strikers last season. He was lucky that Rashford delivered the best season of his life to paper over our vast deficiency upfront that goes back to the Ronaldo fiasco.

Again you are totally missing the point (probably deliberately), that Ten Hag was then completely shafted by Arnold et al over Greenwood last summer.

Whether Greenwood would have performed (he's had a very good season in Spain IMO) and your moral tangents are completely irrelevant to the fact that Ten Hag's whole summer of squad planning upfront was completely undone in the final weeks of the transfer window by the club U-turn.

That our managers are set up to fail by incompetence at board level is a recurring theme and Ten Hag is no different, the hope is that the new regime would do better.

You're entitled to your opinion, but ten Hag performed miracles and Greenwood is having a very good season are simply not true.

We're not going to agree here. Wear your ten Hag pin with pride.

Morals, heh.
 
Playing young players is not the same as developing young players. Sure, it's better than a manager not playing them at all, but developing these youngsters the right way is actually one of the reasons I want ETH gone. The way he is utilising Mainoo in particular is almost the exact opposite of how he should be developed. We finally have a young player coming through who is tailor-made to playing and contributing in a dominant midfield, and the manager has no interest whatsoever in playing that way. Instead he just plops him in the middle of this chaos that his tactics demand. There's no midfield structure, he's not learning positional discipline, there's little interplay between players...it's just shit football that has no benefit and ultimately could lead to him not developing properly. Hojlund and Garnacho also, to a lesser extent.

That is not something I will criticize ETH for - Mainoo has played alongside McT, Eriksen, Casemiro and Bruno - players who combined have 1000 league matches and 300-400 internationals. I will not blame ETH for the fact that the majority of these players have hung Mainoo out to dry with shitty performances. The way I see it - both Mainoo and Garnacho have taken huge steps because of ETH - not despite of him
 
Smaller teams that have, their managers have generally been pretty good!

No, they generally weren’t (at top level), that is the thing.


1999-2001 Valencia made 2 finals under Cuper. Did not have particular success at Inter, did not manage at top level afterwards

2000-2001 Leads under O’Leary made semis. He did nothing of note in his career afterwards

2001-2002 Bayer made CL final under Topmöller. He never even managed, let alone had success on a higher level.

2003-2004 Monaco made final under Deschamps. He had a successful national team career in management but no success at club level afterwards

Porto final under Jose - this one was by a top coach, no question

Deportivo semifinal under Irureta - he did not have success elsewhere

2004-2005 PSV made semis under Hiddink - decent career at national level afterwards, no notable managerial spells except Chelsea interim, so he was kind of on the decline at the time already

2005-2006 Pellegrini made semis with Villarreal, good coach that got top jobs afterwards but hardly a top one

2009-2010 Lyon made Semis under Puel. Did not manage on a higher level after.

2010-2011 Schalke made semis under Magath/Rangnik. Neither have shown themselves to be able to successfully manger a higher level club

2012-2013 Dortmund under Klopp made finals. Top manager no question

2013-2014 & 2015-2016 - Athletico under Simeone - top manager no question

2016-2017 Monaco under Jardim made semis. He is managing in Qatar now.

2017-2018 - Roma made semis under Eusebio di Francesco who is managing mighty Frosione now.

2018-2019 - Ajax with EtH made semis. Poch beat him and made final with Spurs - hardly anyone would want him to manage us now

2019-2020 Leipzig made semis under Nagelsmann who is good, but also Lyon made semis under Rudi Garcia who was managing in Saudi Arabia in a few years

2021-2022 Villareal under Emery made semis, good coach but no particular success at a higher level yet

so plenty of smaller clubs made CL semis over recent decades, most of the managers have gone to do a grand total of nothing at a higher level afterwards. Plus this is ignoring managers who are nowhere near good but made semis/finals/won the whole thing with a bigger clubs like Di Matteo or Grant etc etc. it is a cup competition, this happens.

We can debate on what is a good manager and what is a small club but the big picture is clear I think. Making CL semis with a smaller club is a plus on managers CV but hardly indicative of whether he will come good at higher levels. For every Klopp there are 2-3 jardims, puels and Rudi Garcias
 
What if he doesn’t get the players he needs? We won’t be able to judge him because it may be INEOS’ fault for getting him the wrong players.

If they keep ETH it’s because they identify his style of play as what they want going forward. (Ajax ETH) So the players that have been bought for him plus new signings and you’ve pretty much got a ETH team. Sell the players that have been here too long first and replace them with quality. Build squad depth and support around him.. then judge.
 
You're entitled to your opinion, but ten Hag performed miracles and Greenwood is having a very good season are simply not true.

We're not going to agree here.

Fair enough but they are minor points anyway - glad you agree that Ten Hag was completely shafted by the whole Greenwood thing as that was my main point after all
 
That is not something I will criticize ETH for - Mainoo has played alongside McT, Eriksen, Casemiro and Bruno - players who combined have 1000 league matches and 300-400 internationals. I will not blame ETH for the fact that the majority of these players have hung Mainoo out to dry with shitty performances. The way I see it - both Mainoo and Garnacho have taken huge steps because of ETH - not despite of him

All those players no matter who plays, play the same way. So clearly they are following the managers instructions, and the manager is instructing the attacking midfielders to push up and leave the DM exposed.
 
That is not something I will criticize ETH for - Mainoo has played alongside McT, Eriksen, Casemiro and Bruno - players who combined have 1000 league matches and 300-400 internationals. I will not blame ETH for the fact that the majority of these players have hung Mainoo out to dry with shitty performances. The way I see it - both Mainoo and Garnacho have taken huge steps because of ETH - not despite of him
The playstyle of leaving the entire middle of the pitch wide open and not caring about controlling the tempo of the match is a result of how ETH actively has us set up. It's why it's so much worse this season than it ever was before, even when most of our first choice players are available. All the players are being 'hung out to dry' because of it.
 
The playstyle of leaving the entire middle of the pitch wide open and not caring about controlling the tempo of the match is a result of how ETH actively has us set up. It's why it's so much worse this season than it ever was before, even when most of our first choice players are available. All the players are being 'hung out to dry' because of it.

I want him gone - so I am not defending him. But if you look at us last season compared to this season - with almost the same players, clearly it's not only the manager. Casemiro and Eriksen look 10 years older over the summer and a player like Rashford can't be bothered to run.
 
No, they generally weren’t (at top level), that is the thing.


1999-2001 Valencia made 2 finals under Cuper. Did not have particular success at Inter, did not manage at top level afterwards

2000-2001 Leads under O’Leary made semis. He did nothing of note in his career afterwards

2001-2002 Bayer made CL final under Topmöller. He never even managed, let alone had success on a higher level.

2003-2004 Monaco made final under Deschamps. He had a successful national team career in management but no success at club level afterwards

Porto final under Jose - this one was by a top coach, no question

Deportivo semifinal under Irureta - he did not have success elsewhere

2004-2005 PSV made semis under Hiddink - decent career at national level afterwards, no notable managerial spells except Chelsea interim, so he was kind of on the decline at the time already

2005-2006 Pellegrini made semis with Villarreal, good coach that got top jobs afterwards but hardly a top one

2009-2010 Lyon made Semis under Puel. Did not manage on a higher level after.

2010-2011 Schalke made semis under Magath/Rangnik. Neither have shown themselves to be able to successfully manger a higher level club

2012-2013 Dortmund under Klopp made finals. Top manager no question

2013-2014 & 2015-2016 - Athletico under Simeone - top manager no question

2016-2017 Monaco under Jardim made semis. He is managing in Qatar now.

2017-2018 - Roma made semis under Eusebio di Francesco who is managing mighty Frosione now.

2018-2019 - Ajax with EtH made semis. Poch beat him and made final with Spurs - hardly anyone would want him to manage us now

2019-2020 Leipzig made semis under Nagelsmann who is good, but also Lyon made semis under Rudi Garcia who was managing in Saudi Arabia in a few years

2021-2022 Villareal under Emery made semis, good coach but no particular success at a higher level yet

so plenty of smaller clubs made CL semis over recent decades, most of the managers have gone to do a grand total of nothing at a higher level afterwards. Plus this is ignoring managers who are nowhere near good but made semis/finals/won the whole thing with a bigger clubs like Di Matteo or Grant etc etc. it is a cup competition, this happens.

We can debate on what is a good manager and what is a small club but the big picture is clear I think. Making CL semis with a smaller club is a plus on managers CV but hardly indicative of whether he will come good at higher levels. For every Klopp there are 2-3 jardims, puels and Rudi Garcias
Thank you for the effort I was not willing to go to :D .

It's a fair to say he might be a Jardim and not anything better. I'm not using it as an excuse to keep him, I just don't think people should play it down, just like you shouldn't with Jardim. As I've said, I'd prefer someone like Tuchel for this very reason and not a Jardim. Sorry Jardim, you took a battering to make a point.
 
Ten Hag actually performed miracles to get Top4 with a decrepit Martial and bargain bin Weghorst as his main strikers last season. He was lucky that Rashford delivered the best season of his life to paper over our vast deficiency upfront that goes back to the Ronaldo fiasco.

Again you are totally missing the point (probably deliberately), that Ten Hag was then completely shafted by Arnold et al over Greenwood last summer.

Whether Greenwood would have performed (he's had a very good season in Spain IMO) and your moral tangents are completely irrelevant to the fact that Ten Hag's whole summer of squad planning upfront was completely undone in the final weeks of the transfer window by the club U-turn.

That our managers are set up to fail by incompetence at board level is a recurring theme and Ten Hag is no different, the hope is that the new regime would do better.
That is a very generous to EtH interpretation of things. You sound as if Greenwood were some ready-made world class player who was ready to drag the team on his own, not a young still developing player after 18 months of no football. Even if he were a world class player - pinning the “entire squad planning” on him would be unwise to put it mildly.

I do not believe for a moment that it was communicated to EtH that “Greenwood is coming back 100%”. It was probably “likely” or “we will do our best”. Even Murtough is not that stupid.

Even if it (stupidly) was communicated like that - EtH should not have been that naive to rely on him coming back to such a significant extent. Again, given his age and long absence a squad rotation player is an absolute maximum you could reasonably expect.

If he were suspended weeks/days before the end of the transfer window- different story and you can maybe use it as excuse is a manager. But this excuse could only be used by Ralf, not by EtH.

No serious organisation would accept “I just relied on X giving me assurances that something good is likely going to happen, therefore no check, no contingency plan” from an employee with a position of such authority on a performance review regarding a critical issue. He is paid 9m a year ffs.
 
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All those players no matter who plays, play the same way. So clearly they are following the managers instructions, and the manager is instructing the attacking midfielders to push up and leave the DM exposed.
I myself am pretty ambivalent towards ETH, actually more leaning to bringing in somebody else in the summer. The issue for me though, who would that be. Despite that, I think, the situation is described a little too shallow.

I agree with you, what we are seeing in terms of players behaviour is part of the plan. The individual skillset and quality plays a role, too, but predominantly, there isn't a lot that speaks for players abandoning ETHs plan and instructions on a huge scale. To me, it looks like this: when he came in, he set us up relatively basic, as some say it was mostly Ole-Ball, more reserved, sitting deep trying to hit opponents with fast transitions. It worked reasonably well but there is a good chance, that this was a bit of compromise for ETH. This season, from pre-season onwards he is trying to take a more pro-active approach. Forcing high turnovers with pressing, having multiple players join the attack. Obviously this will put more pressure to our own ability to defend transitions and it will also not work from the get-go as our players aren't used (some probably even aren suited) to that kind of play. The plan isn't anything extraordinary, many teams try to do that, the reason it isn't working was always that it would take some time for players to find their roles, create synergies. And to personally, I was expecting a few heavy beatings as well. Because obviously it is harder to defend when you have pushed up and the opponents hits you when you are trying to go forward.
So, even without off-pitch factors, there was a good chance of us not hitting the ground running attempting something that hasn't been attempted in our team before. But then the injuries hit, preventing players to get used to their roles. Preventing synergies to form because players were playing one position on one weekend and another position the weekend after. This huge gap we suffer so often in our midfield isn't simply "bad tactics" or "bad players" - it is a lack of synchronization. Attackers push up high to press but midfield and defense is reluctant to push up as well. So the injuries definitely are a very relevant factor if we want to think about ETHs quality.

Now many say ETH should have adapted, he should have stopped trying to go for that plan when the injuries were there. And I can see the reasoning behind hit, I agree with that. But iirc ETH said in an interview, that he didn't want to change the plan because he knew it would trigger another adaptation period only to go back to his initial plan for the season when the injured players came back. He took a bit of a gamble here, and it didn't pay off at all. Because the injuries came again and again.

This isn't me defending ETH, I am fine with getting rid of him in the summer as long as we are confident to have a good and suitable successor available. But I think it is important to really consider all relevant factors. There are fans around here calling for Ole again. And maybe a manager like that, with a basic game plan would be able to stabilize the team again. But to me it is obvious that this simply would be a side step. Football moved on, teams play more collectively now, Manchester United is like 10 years behind all that. We have to update that. And this will hurt to a degree and be accompanied with bad results here and there. It is a legit standpoint to want ETH gone because he seems inflexible, because he doesn't adapt and doesn't seem to be able to get the best out of our players. Thats fine, but "mere" bad results or "embarassing this and that" are very shortsighted and emotional standpoints. I am afraid we can't allow us to have that. The club made so many mistakes in the last decade, there is no way out without some suffering. Mourinho, Ole were all attempts to "at least stabilize" the club. It only delayed the inevitable.
 
Getting Ten Hag out is the easier choice. I cannot know what is going on behind the scenes but it is clear Ten Hag has done a lot of work here.

Letting him continue is committing to an attacking strategy, that is a pro for me. It could be a mistake.
 
"December" is just another moving target.

I have no doubt that if we did just that, once December came around the usual suspects would all be saying "we might as well keep him for the rest of the season, there's nothing to play for / no quality replacements are available".

This has been a problem for many years now. We are not ruthless enough. I doubt any club with similar ambitions show their players or manager as much patience.
 
Perhaps Manchester United is unmanageable? It sounds like a rich cancer patient switching doctors. "But the guy in the next room down got better. I want his doctor instead."

Bit of a dramatic premise for me. Why would that be the case? Ten Hag has had been given resources to do his job in the same way that any manager is - he's asked for players and been given them, and has brought in his own coaching staff. Broadly speaking, what do other managers have that he hasn't had? All managers will face challenges in their job. Why is he failing to such an extent?

Poor performances on the pitch must, to some degree, be a result of what's going on in training and the tactical set up. That's the manager fault.

The club has been very badly ran. The manager isn't good enough to do the job. Both can be true and on available evidence they are.
 
Sorry but that’s utter nonsense. You’re trying to state facts when there is no basis for it, The fact you’ve even mentioned Southgate is ridiculous.

Anyway I think what many seem to forget or not realise is we want to play a certain manner of football. We want to impose our play upon others like a Man City or Pool do. We could bring in a pragmatic manager like Jose that would just try and win at all costs but that only works for so long.

We want that imposing style where we play people off the park and we are in the process of building towards that. Will ETH be able to get it over the line with another window. I’m not sure. I think it’s at least another 2 possibly 3 summer windows away.

But next season I think he needs to show better performances, especially if we can bring in 3-4 players over this upcoming window.

Based on what?
 
This has been a problem for many years now. We are not ruthless enough. I doubt any club with similar ambitions show their players or manager as much patience.
This sounds easier than it is though. The publicized ambition might be clear for us, but what actually is the internal one? What are ETHs objectives? We shouldn't make the mistake of assuming, every manager always has the expectation to win as much as possible as the only target. And you need to know that before you can really give an answer on how well or no well a manager does.

I agree overall, the club hasn't been pragmatic enough, towards players, towards managers. But simply starting over every year or every other year also isn't going to cut it. I wrote a longer comment above, so be ensured that I am not invested in ETH but getting rid simply for getting rid isn't pragmatic. You may call it ruthless - somebody else might just call impulsive and that is what brought us into the mess after all.
 
Getting Ten Hag out is the easier choice. I cannot know what is going on behind the scenes but it is clear Ten Hag has done a lot of work here.

Letting him continue is committing to an attacking strategy, that is a pro for me. It could be a mistake.
Are you sure?