United v Chelsea

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Had Veron misplaced as many passes as Butt, Scholes or Beckham in that game he would have been slaughtered.
Veron misses one pass ppl are on his back, you hear the commentators, the match tracker etc going on about it. Beckham does it and its hardly mentioned. Until he scored his goal last Friday he was playing miserable.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed.

But don't you think it works in reverse also?
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All the Utd players are top notch,otherwise Fergie wouldn`t have them i nthe squad.

Veron is an excellent player.
Scholes is an excellent player.

The skill is in the manager to get the tactics and formation right for each team and hope they play to their own high standards.

Redwaz
I played for about 18 months in the the 70`s
 
Originally posted by Waz:
<strong>I played for about 18 months in the the 70`s</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well then your no good in here, youll have to put in 13.5 yrs more if your going to be proving Rams wrong.
I just worked out that ive been at it for nearly 20 yrs now :eek: Must mean im right ;)
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Well then your no good in here, youll have to put in 13.5 yrs more if your going to be proving Rams wrong.
I just worked out that ive been at it for nearly 20 yrs now :eek: Must mean im right ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

played football meself...

i must be an expert n'all.

you guys are wrong...iam right ;)
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

in what way, liv?</strong><hr></blockquote>

In the way that sometimes those who favour Veron may pick up on mistakes made by Scholes/Butt/Becks etc., and ignore similar made by Veron.

That's just an example using those players already mentioned in the thread.

I'm sure we all do it with our favoured players.
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>in what way, liv?</strong><hr></blockquote>I think she means if Seba had scored a goal in the same way Giggsy or Bex did, plus, played as averagely as they did, some might have been singing his praises a bit too much!
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

In the way that sometimes those who favour Veron may pick up on mistakes made by Scholes/Butt, and ignore similar made by Veron.

That's just an example using those players already mentioned in the thread.

I'm sure we all do it with our favoured players.</strong><hr></blockquote>


true...

however.. i can honestly say that Schosey is one of my faves.. he was my favourite, youngster along with Gillespie..

but you'r right.. we're all biased, some more than others ;)
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Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong>I think she means if Seba had scored a goal in the same way Giggsy or Bex did, plus, played as averagely as they did, some might have been singing his praises a bit too much!</strong><hr></blockquote>

i think she means that n'all. ;)
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


true...

however.. i can honestly say that Schosey is one of my faves.. he was my favourite, youngster along with Gillespie..

but you'r right.. we're all biased, some more than others ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

I noticed that wink Giggzy!

I'm not biased. I just champion the under-dog. ;)

(That's why I like you..... :) )
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

i think she means that n'all. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't even understand what that means! (I must be getting PC drunk)
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I noticed that wink Giggzy!

I'm not biased. I just champion the under-dog. ;)

(That's why I like you..... :) )</strong><hr></blockquote>


:D

the underdog... giggzy against the world <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />


;)
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


:D

the underdog... giggzy against the world <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />


;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, against Rams anyway.....
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Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>


Im comparing my football knowledge to yours. I know that Veron has been shit so far for United. Scholes has more than proven himself at OT. I also know that Scholes's game suits United far more than Veron's does. I also know that Scholes was better than 'average' against Chelsea. But then again, Im not a biased, boring, self-rightious knobend.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agree with you about Scholes and Veron - the key to United's success, whether that be over the last 10 years of Scholes, or second half v. Chelsea, is the one touch fast creative passing game. A lot of the passes are actually quite short, one twos, through balls, with a lot of movement. The style of game Veron is trying to create requires at least two hitmen in front of him to feed the ball too, so he's entirely unsuited to a 4-5-1. But also he holds the ball up too much, and tries too complex a passes whereas our possesion game is based on simple passes with good movement.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Well, against Rams anyway.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

oh him...


his footballing knowledge is far too strong for me..

pass me your football book... i think i need it.


;)
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>
In the way that sometimes those who favour Veron may pick up on mistakes made by Scholes/Butt/Becks etc., and ignore similar made by Veron.
That's just an example using those players already mentioned in the thread.
I'm sure we all do it with our favoured players.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It would but Scholes, Beckham etc have not been getting as much stick as Veron either way.
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

oh him...


his footballing knowledge is far too strong for me..

pass me your football book... i think i need it.


;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

you need a personality....

have you got anything else to say? you know, about dwarfs or something?

sad git <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
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Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>

you need a personality....

have you got anything else to say? you know, about dwarfs or something?

sad git <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

i'll just act like a sad boring stoned, faggot... who thinks he's funny from now on.


;)
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

i'll just act like a sad boring stoned, faggot... who thinks he's funny from now on.


;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

ouch, your wit is killing me......
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Agree with you about Scholes and Veron - the key to United's success, whether that be over the last 10 years of Scholes, or second half v. Chelsea, is the one touch fast creative passing game. A lot of the passes are actually quite short, one twos, through balls, with a lot of movement. The style of game Veron is trying to create requires at least two hitmen in front of him to feed the ball too, so he's entirely unsuited to a 4-5-1. But also he holds the ball up too much, and tries too complex a passes whereas our possesion game is based on simple passes with good movement.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think Veron would suit the type of game you suggest if the other players picked up on the passes he sees a little bit more. One example of what can happen when they do is Solskjaer's goal against Deportivo last season. Seba looks up, sees the pass, hits it, 'kin beauty that curls along the ground, Ole picks it up, bam. That's what it should be.

Then, more often, you have those like that one against West Brom. Veron hits a pass on to the left flank, Silvestre's not looking, stops when running forward would have put him clean through, and the ball goes out of play.

It takes time to build these things, and my concern is that Seba won't have the time he needs. Patience, everyone.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>
It would but Scholes, Beckham etc have not been getting as much stick as Veron either way.</strong><hr></blockquote>


That's true. But although Seba has his critics, he also has a hard core support that won't accept any criticism of him. The latest is that his passes don't go astray, it's just that the rest of the team aren't intelligent enough to read them.
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Originally posted by spinoza:
<strong>

I think Veron would suit the type of game you suggest if the other players picked up on the passes he sees a little bit more. One example of what can happen when they do is Solskjaer's goal against Deportivo last season. Seba looks up, sees the pass, hits it, 'kin beauty that curls along the ground, Ole picks it up, bam. That's what it should be.

Then, more often, you have those like that one against West Brom. Veron hits a pass on to the left flank, Silvestre's not looking, stops when running forward would have put him clean through, and the ball goes out of play.

It takes time to build these things, and my concern is that Seba won't have the time he needs. Patience, everyone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

yeah, give the bloke a chance! I mean, he's only been at the club for just over a season.....
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

it took you 8 mins to come up with that? :eek:


come on lad... u can do better. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

yeah, thats right. it took me 8 seconds to work out that you are tosser tho...

:stickyerwinkupyerarsesmile:
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Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>

yeah, thats right. it took me 8 seconds to work out that you are tosser tho...

:stickyerwinkupyerarsesmile:</strong><hr></blockquote>

that was a truely amazing comeback..

you're an expert at comebacks as well as being a football expert.


well done... u tha man.. ;) ;) ;)
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Had Veron misplaced as many passes as Butt, Scholes or Beckham in that game he would have been slaughtered.
Veron misses one pass ppl are on his back, you hear the commentators, the match tracker etc going on about it. Beckham does it and its hardly mentioned. Until he scored his goal last Friday he was playing miserable.</strong><hr></blockquote>


True, but I'd rather say that Beckham scored that wonderful goal to make people easily forgot his wrong passes and mistakes in this game. No player will never make wrong pass, but the important thing is can his contribution remedy the mistake he made in a match? After Ronaldo scored two goals in a World Cup final, how many people would remember he has also wasted a couple of great chances in that match? So I'd say basically Veron's problem is "lack of contribution" rather than simply making a few wrong passes. If he can increase his scoring rate or assist rate, I believe that most critizes will go, even if he still make a few wrong passes in a match.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>
The latest is that his passes don't go astray, it's just that the rest of the team aren't intelligent enough to read them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think theres truth in that, i wouldnt call it intelligence but hopefully thats something that will fall in place soon enough.
I think the hardcore Veron group support him because he is taking all the blamb for last season. Ok he was below par but so was everyone bar Keano & RVN, the blamb should be put between the other 18 or so. Fair is fair.
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong> If he can increase his scoring rate or assist rate, I believe that most critizes will go, even if he still make a few wrong passes in a match.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was allways the problem with imports to Italy, the fans demanded goals if it was an expensive import. Thats why Hughes was never appreciated in Barcelona (ok spain) and the same was expected off Ince @ Inter despite his miserable goals record with us.
Veron has never scored a lot of goals so we shouldnt crave that from him. Assists and general poking/ opening up defences could however be expected, i dont have stats on that.
Its sad but true that Veron would be Mr popular if he got a couple more goals.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

That was allways the problem with imports to Italy, the fans demanded goals if it was an expensive import. Thats why Hughes was never appreciated in Barcelona (ok spain) and the same was expected off Ince @ Inter despite his miserable goals record with us.
Veron has never scored a lot of goals so we shouldnt crave that from him. Assists and general poking/ opening up defences could however be expected, i dont have stats on that.
Its sad but true that Veron would be Mr popular if he got a couple more goals.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not only goals, but also assists. That's what we expect from an attacking midfielder/playmaker. Even most Veron critizers cannot deny he had an excellent match against Deportivo last season. If he could do more like that (open up opponent's defence and make goals), he will be one of the most popular player here.
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>
Not only goals, but also assists. That's what we expect from an attacking midfielder/playmaker. Even most Veron critizers cannot deny he had an excellent match against Deportivo last season. If he could do more like that (open up opponent's defence and make goals), he will be one of the most popular player here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats the great misconception about Veron, hes not an "attacking midfielder", hence his low scoring record. Ideally Keane should push forward more when him & Veron play together. Would leave gaps at the back as Veron is also not an anchor man but i think we'd survive.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Thats the great misconception about Veron, hes not an "attacking midfielder", hence his low scoring record. Ideally Keane should push forward more when him & Veron play together. Would leave gaps at the back as Veron is also not an anchor man but i think we'd survive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If he's not an "attacking midfielder" and also not good as an "anchor man" then what is the extra bit that he is supposed to add to our already world-class midfield?

When he first came to OT I thought he would be playing a similar role as Scholes (ie. making killer passes and banging in mid-range shots) but it turns out he likes to drop deep to be the anchor man (however his work-rate and defensive ability are both below Keane's and Butt's).

We all know he's class but it's disappointing as we still couldn't figure out how he could best contribute to the team.
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Originally posted by mu11:
<strong>
If he's not an "attacking midfielder" and also not good as an "anchor man" then what is the extra bit that he is supposed to add to our already world-class midfield? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Hesa midfielder, the same as Beckham would be if he played in the middle.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Hesa midfielder, the same as Beckham would be if he played in the middle.</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> Sorry, but it's just getting very funny. According to you, Veron is not an attacking midfielder nor an anchor man (holding midfielder/defensive midfielder), and it is also no problem that he doesn't score or assist. Then just what's the function of this 28.1m "midfielder" you're talking about? Exactly what is your expectation for him?
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Thats the great misconception about Veron, hes not an "attacking midfielder", hence his low scoring record. Ideally Keane should push forward more when him & Veron play together. Would leave gaps at the back as Veron is also not an anchor man but i think we'd survive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

didn't he play in the attacking midfield role during his time in Parma? Almeyda and Dino Baggio were the defensive ones.
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