United under LvG: verdict so far!

Status
Not open for further replies.
golden_blunder said:
I wasnt talking about formations though

I was talking about all of this crap about recycling the ball and thinking about the next move. As i said, they are good footballers, LVG needs to take the shackles off or more importantly know when its the time to take the shackles off.
Click to expand...
No, they are not very good footballers. I could name one of them who would certainly make it into Real's, Barca's, Bayern's, City's or Chelsea's first eleven. Maybe Rooney, but certainly not as the most forward striker. That needs to be compensated for. But yesterday I saw a team that did, a very well organised, trained and drilled team. You can call that shackled, I think is freeing their minds of too many things to think about during the game, because they have done in training what already could be done. During the game they can concentrate on their own game, and don't have to look who is where, because they already know.

Thats why i've been so frustrated with him, we could have been trouncing teams earlier in the season but he didnt trust them. Its only now that he's beginning to see what the fans, media and possibly some of the players have been saying all season. Play key players in their normal position (rooney), play more direct, with a faster tempo and then we will get the right results.
Click to expand...
Sounds like the good old English way, let's not gain any advantage by beeing better organized and drilled and leave the players with as much thinking to do on the pitch as possible. That worked well in all those EC's, WC's and European competitions the last decades. Utd could become 3rd of 4th every season that way, and get hammered in the CL in march by teams with better players or more advanced in team play. It sounds to me you're impatient for mediocrity.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
No, they are not very good footballers. I could name one of them who would certainly make it into Real's, Barca's, Bayern's, City's or Chelsea's first eleven. Maybe Rooney, but certainly not as the most forward striker. That needs to be compensated for. But yesterday I saw a team that did, a very well organised, trained and drilled team. You can call that shackled, I think is freeing their minds of too many things to think about during the game, because they have done in training what already could be done. During the game they can concentrate on their own game, and don't have to look who is where, because they already know.

Sounds like the good old English way, let's not gain any advantage by beeing better organized and drilled and leave the players with as much thinking to do on the pitch as possible. That worked well in all those EC's, WC's and European competitions the last decades. Utd could become 3rd of 4th every season that way, and get hammered in the CL in march by teams with better players or more advanced in team play. It sounds to me you're impatient for mediocrity.
Click to expand...

First of all, they wouldnt be at Manchester United if they werent very good footballers.

Secondly you are talking about 1 match, where everything went in their favour. There are many more examples of frustrating negative play over the season, results which at the time seem to have been because the team was playing within itself. This comes down to management instruction. You cant just say that in one match it was brilliant because they have been drilling all season on how to play like this, and not by the same token take the negative with that suggestion, that they have been drilling all season but served up pretty frustrating stuff (to put it mildly) prior to the Spurs match

btw Fergie didnt do half bad in all competitions thinking about 'the good old English way' as you put it.
 
golden_blunder said:
First of all, they wouldnt be at Manchester United if they werent very good footballers.
Click to expand...
If they're good enough to just play in their position and work out what to do themselves is a matter of ambition. Fact is that the best players in the world go from Utd to Madrid, prefer London or want a City salary. If you want to compete with the best/richest, you have to gain an advantage on team play. And that's more difficult than just playing players in "their" position and see what they come up with.

Secondly you are talking about 1 match, where everything went in their favour. There are many more examples of frustrating negative play over the season, results which at the time seem to have been because the team was playing within itself. This comes down to management instruction. You cant just say that in one match it was brilliant because they have been drilling all season on how to play like this, and not by the same token take the negative with that suggestion, that they have been drilling all season but served up pretty frustrating stuff (to put it mildly) prior to the Spurs match
Click to expand...
If you're rebuilding your house you'll be living in a mess for a few months. The question is whether it's worth it, not how big and annoying the mess will get because it will always be bigger and more annoying than is good for your mood. The rebuild took longer than planned, so there is room for fair criticism, but it had to be done considering the ambitions of the club. In Munich they're happy they're not still a counter attacking club that has no real chance of winning the CL.

btw Fergie didnt do half bad in all competitions thinking about 'the good old English way' as you put it.
Click to expand...
That doesn't applie to Ferguson, he was an innovator, way ahead of his Engish collegues. No surprise it took him a while to get his 'philosophy' working. But about ten years ago he started to get surpassed by the developments in international football. Your plea wasn't for a Ferguson like manager, but for a Redknapp/Hodgson/Pardew kind of approach.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
If they're good enough to just play in their position and work out what to do themselves is a matter of ambition. Fact is that the best players in the world go from Utd to Madrid, prefer London or want a City salary. If you want to compete with the best/richest, you have to gain an advantage on team play. And that's more difficult than just playing players in "their" position and see what they come up with.

If you're rebuilding your house you'll be living in a mess for a few months. The question is whether it's worth it, not how big and annoying the mess will get because it will always be bigger and more annoying than is good for your mood. The rebuild took longer than planned, so there is room for fair criticism, but it had to be done considering the ambitions of the club. In Munich they're happy they're not still a counter attacking club that has no real chance of winning the CL.

That doesn't applie to Ferguson, he was an innovator, way ahead of his Engish collegues. No surprise it took him a while to get his 'philosophy' working. But about ten years ago he started to get surpassed by the developments in international football. Your plea wasn't for a Ferguson like manager, but for a Redknapp/Hodgson/Pardew kind of approach.
Click to expand...

Took fergie long enough to instill his philosophy, took him several year to boot out the drunk brigade, took him a decade till he won his first ec.

So yeah, the mess is worth the hassle.
 
bishblaize said:
It may well be the formation and line up you were after, but looking at this board generally I've seen no consensus about what line up or formation people want most. I doubt many line ups included Mata wide right, Fellaini as attacking MF and Di Maria left out entirely.
Click to expand...

The general consensus has been

- Drop the two striker nonsense
- Drop one or both Falcao/RVP
- Stop playing Rooney in midfield
- Play Herrera
 
Heres the crazy thing, if you ignore August, points collected in the league from Sept til now ooks like this;

Chelsea 55
United 54
City 52
Arsenal 52

Chelsea's vastly superior start has been the difference. Otherwise we could have been talking about a 4 way title run in.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Heres the crazy thing, if you ignore August, points collected in the league from Sept til now ooks like this;

Chelsea 55
United 54
City 52
Arsenal 52

Chelsea's vastly superior start has been the difference. Otherwise we could have been talking about a 4 way title run in.
Click to expand...

The only table that matters is the one at the end of the season. If the season started in January then Lpool would be top of the league. You can basically make an excuse for every top 6 team and say well if that never happened we would be here in the table.
 
Sky1981 said:
Took fergie long enough to instill his philosophy, took him several year to boot out the drunk brigade, took him a decade till he won his first ec.

So yeah, the mess is worth the hassle.
Click to expand...

Except Van Gaal isn't going to stay here for a decade is he?
 
Sam said:
The general consensus has been

- Drop the two striker nonsense
- Drop one or both Falcao/RVP
- Stop playing Rooney in midfield
- Play Herrera
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Its ironically the balance that he's been harping on about that he's been messing about with. Hes played the teams strengths lately and it's starting to show.
 
LeftyBlaster said:
Pretty much. Its ironically the balance that he's been harping on about that he's been messing about with. Hes played the teams strengths lately and it's starting to show.
Click to expand...

Yep. The lack of balance within the team was all of his own making. In the grander scheme of things, I accept that there is a lack of balance in the overall squad, in terms of a good spread of ability throughout all the positions (i.e most of our attacking players play best through the middle rather then out wide), but there is still enough quality to put out better teams then he was earlier in the season. He was over complicating things,
 
Sam said:
Yep. The lack of balance within the team was all of his own making. In the grander scheme of things, I accept that there is a lack of balance in the overall squad, in terms of a good spread of ability throughout all the positions (i.e most of our attacking players play best through the middle rather then out wide), but there is still enough quality to put out better teams then he was earlier in the season. He was over complicating things,
Click to expand...

Agree entirely with this post. van Gaal is primarily responsible for the average season because he was doing things that were not necessary. He seems to be fixing it though. Similar to Rodgers at Liverpool in a way.
 
He's got my vote now for a second season even if we fail to finish top 4 this season.

We are really turning a corner in terms of the quality of our possession and given another season I think we'll be even better.

Just watching us dominate an 'in form' Liverpool at Anfield was delightful - yes, there is still work to be done, but we utterly dominated them for most of the game.

This game was such a joy to watch thanks to Van Gaal's tactical superiority.
 
We beautifully controlled the game today, more composed than any anfield performance in recent memory, and that's down to him. We'll done Louie.
 
It's all coming together now. For me, he gets a second season regardless of top four finish (as I've said before).
 
Sam said:
Yep. The lack of balance within the team was all of his own making. In the grander scheme of things, I accept that there is a lack of balance in the overall squad, in terms of a good spread of ability throughout all the positions (i.e most of our attacking players play best through the middle rather then out wide), but there is still enough quality to put out better teams then he was earlier in the season. He was over complicating things,
Click to expand...
Absolutely, Sam.

It was obvious he was playing out of form players just to give them games, freezing out our best players, and playing Rooney in wrong positions. I always argued our squad was good.
 
"She canee take the strain capt'n!"

But seriously, he's really getting this team to gel. Today and against Spurs were great performances and there is clear improvement in our play.

That was probably one of the most dominant performances at Anfield ever - if not just the first half alone.
 
I think LvG finally has this squad within a psychological headspace where they are behaving like a team rather than a group of individuals. We've seen random glimmers of it throughout the year, but it wasn't until Spurs and Liverpool that we have actually managed to consistently apply it.

Suddenly players like Chris Smalling, Juan Mata, and Marouane Fellaini, who have been randomly reviled as weak links, are now each punching well above their own weight. If LvG can somehow get Di Maria to do the same, we could make a serious push to finish 2nd.
 
Updated Moyes 2013/14 Vs Van Gaal 2014/15 game by game/head to head record:

Swansea home:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0

Sunderland away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

Burnley/Fulham away (team that finished 2nd in Championship equivalent to team that finished 2nd bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

QPR/Cardiff home (team that got promoted via the play-offs equivalent to team that finished bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3

Leicester/Norwich away (team that finished 1st in Championship equivalent to team that finished 3rd bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0

West Ham home:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3

Everton home:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3

West Brom away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

Chelsea home:

Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 1

Man City away:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 0

Crystal Palace home:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3

Arsenal away:

Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 3

Hull Home:

N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.

Stoke home:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3

Southampton away:

N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.

Liverpool home:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3

Villa away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

Newcastle home:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3

Tottenham away:

Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 1

Stoke away:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 1

Southampton home:

Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 0

QPR/Cardiff away (team that got promoted via the play-offs equivalent to team that finished bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 3

Leicester/Norwich home (team that finished 1st in Championship equivalent to team that finished 3rd bottom in Prem):

N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.

West Ham away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

Burnley/Fulham home (team that finished 2nd in Championship equivalent to team that finished 2nd bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 3

Swansea away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0

Sunderland home:

N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.

Newcastle away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3

Tottenham home:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3

Liverpool away:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3

Final score:

Moyes - 45
Van Gaal - 47

For the first time in the comparison, then, LvG is ahead. And where he's unambiguously outperforming Moyes is in the big games. Moyes got nothing from Tottenham at home and Liverpool away, and LvG got six points. And it does look to me that he's now starting to earn his money and live up to his reputation.
 
The patience to pass out of a press is amazing. That's just the start of something special from within the team.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
We play well in the big games but the confidence on the ball is starting to fall into place. We are good to watch finally.
Click to expand...

Definitely. The opening periods against Spurs and Liverpool are the best i've seen us play in a long time. Even stretching back into the last few years of the Fergie era.

The phrase that came to mind when I was watching this afternoon was 'Full Spectrum Dominance'. We just looked on a totally different level to Liverpool, who are themselves a good team in great form.

The one nagging doubt is that we've seen too many false dawns over the last 24 months. Hopefully this isn't one, and we're back to being a legit contender for the title of Best Team in the League.
 
I have had my doubts, still do but the last two have been fantastic results. Totally contrary to the expectations. Never expected to turn it around so swiftly.

Well done, Louie!

Get us top 4 and I'll punch myself on the face for calling him a moron earlier.
 
Last edited:
As I said a week ago, carry on seeing performances like this until the end of the season and I'd be in full support of giving LvG more time, even if we don't make top four.

And it turns out we're pretty good against the bigger teams. Sort out performances/results against the weaker teams and we'll be golden.
 
Snow said:
You guys think LvG sort of regrets not playing Mata and Herrera more?
Click to expand...

He can't change the past, he can only learn from any mistakes but obviously realises more how much more fluent our game is with those two in the field, I mean Herrera isn't a finished product and he has to manage him well but the more games he is getting he is getting better same with Juan in form, I'm just delighted I can watch us and be excited again.
 
Are people actually still doubting he'll get us top four? I think the more logical doubt is rather he'll get us a 2nd place finish.
 
11081308_1359412877432258_6254509062367775916_n.jpg
 
Jando said:
He can't change the past, he can only learn from any mistakes but obviously realises more how much more fluent our game is with those two in the field, I mean Herrera isn't a finished product and he has to manage him well but the more games he is getting he is getting better same with Juan in form, I'm just delighted I can watch us and be excited again.
Click to expand...
I get that. He said after the game that Mata was his most consistent player. Weird to say that and not play him for 6 games straight. Great if that doesn't end up costing United at the end of the season and makes the next season for "easy" to figure out.
 
Snow said:
You guys think LvG sort of regrets not playing Mata and Herrera more?
Click to expand...

There is a whole list of things you can make. Some of his decisions have been baffling. Though wouldn't care if finishes the season well and shows progess next season.
 
Looks like things are beginning to fall into place. Unlike some, I never gave up on LVG. But we need to push on and be consistent. We've shown great football for 40 mins in the matches to Spurs and now Pool, but what we need is a complete 90 min performance. I have no doubt he's working on that. Definitely think the squad are getting to grips with what he wants. He was never going to get it from them much sooner, he's changing a whole mentality, and that really takes time. But I'm pleased with how we're progressing. Glory Glory Man Utd!
 
Insanity said:
There is a whole list of things you can make. Some of his decisions have been baffling. Though wouldn't care if finishes the season well and shows progess next season.
Click to expand...
I agree. Just makes you wonder where United would be right now. This league has been there for the taking this season and only one team has taken advantage of it. Not that it was the goal from the get go but hindsight is being mean to my psyche.
 
Snow said:
I agree. Just makes you wonder where United would be right now. This league has been there for the taking this season and only one team has taken advantage of it. Not that it was the goal from the get go but hindsight is being mean to my psyche.
Click to expand...

Yup, who would have thought doing the obvious such as playing two of our best defenders in defense, starting Herrera, playing with one striker and width would have helped, eh?

Then, I didn't think that a system without hoofing the ball can make Fellaini look good either.

Anyway, let's finish this one strong, still a bit of football to be played in this one. City, Chelsea and Everton aren't going to be easy.
 
For the first time since the preseason I'm starting to believe!

The big difference for me is that we are finally moving the ball quickly with one-touch passing and that caused so many problems for Spurs and Liverpool.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.