LVG must continue with what is working. I hope he sticks to the team and players that produce good performances and does not go back to old ways that werent really working, even if that means leaving some of his favorite players out
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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I don't think the system has much to do with it. He's been working on every player knowing where to run and where to pass in any given situation for several months now. That's a lot to learn which caused many players to be hesistant, and it doesn't lead to flowing one touch or two touch football if a few links are still a fraction of a second too slow.
Di Maria form is a huge issue, but other that an awful lot of players have improved massively under him. Valencia, Young, Fellaini, Smalling, Rojo, Herrera to name a few. Maybe Jones too. Probably he can get Carrick a few more years on top level if he’s used correctly. Januzaj and Shaw haven’t progressed but they are still very young. Evans seems to be the only one who has regressed (maybe it’s a confidence issue but that’s still an issue considering he’s the oldest CB in our squad).
Falcao is not his problem so I don’t think we should worry about that. Only thing he did wrong was overplaying van Persie when there were clear signs that he needs a rest.
Falcao is not his problem so I don’t think we should worry about that. Only thing he did wrong was overplaying van Persie when there were clear signs that he needs a rest.
Has Rojo improved? Didn't watch him in Portugal so have no idea. I do wonder if taking him out of the backline improved our defence against Spurs. He's decent defending high up the pitch but seems to lack awareness in and around our box.
I think yesterday saw Wayne Rooney repay Van Gaal another installment on the Dutchman's investment of trust in his captain. According to Fellaini on MOTD, Wayne held a players meeting on Saturday night and delivered an inspirational speech. What clicked yesterday was maybe a double whammy for Spurs; firstly Van Gaal's tactics, which the team seem to be finally getting the hang of, and secondly, a new level of energy and imagination and commitment in their application. Maybe the way the players set about their task was something to do with the captain's pep talk; Spurs couldn't live with the combination.
Can't agree, I think he's been really good recently, and his partnership with Smalling was looking pretty good. Our back line was simply under less pressure against Spurs than against Arsenal. After all, if Smalling-vs-Arsenal and Smalling-vs-Spurs were different players then you could make exactly the same argument, that taking Smalling-vs-Arsenal out of the back line improved our defence against Spurs. There was actually more noticeable improvement there than there was from Jones compared to Rojo.
Regardless of whatever the hell I'm talking about there, I reckon it's going to be handy that Jones' and Rojo's games are looking fairly similar at the moment - both decent on the ball, both like to drive forward through the middle every now and then, both tend to be the more aggressive, proactive partner to Smalling's more reactive, game-watching style. It should mean that, injuries permitting, we can really make Smalling the foundation of our back line, with Jones and Rojo so interchangeable next to him.
Makes you think back when Carrick got the number 16 shirt, many were far from convinced giving Carrick the number. Now has Carrick gets older every year, the curse of trying to replace the current number 16, becomes a concern, just has it was when replacing Keane. Could blind do it? Who knows
I have my reservations too, I should probably put him into maybe bracket, because I haven't seen much of him before he came to us. But I think he has improved since the start of the season (or maybe he just settled down and isn’t so nervous anymore, hard to tell). Still, although I don’t rate him very high, he has exceeded my expectations.
I always thought you call players like Smalling proactive and Rojo/Jones reactive. Smalling reads the game better than those two, while them are more of a last ditch tackle guys.
Good post lost amoung all the panic and loss of faith last week.
Mark my words if you beat Liverpool that will be a giant step towards top four for United. Liverpool will not go to the Emirates and the Bridge and win.
You say the system doesn't matter then you go on to describe the system in practice. Contradictory
Well if we beat Liverpool and Liverpool don't beat Swansea today then I think top 4 will be as good as sealed. I don't count on it, still think it's more probable they will be above us at this time next week.
Being mere 2 points behind City and a point behind Arsenal is a boost as we're yet to play both at home.
I think Swansea can get something vs Liverpool tonight. i feel this is the first time in Liverpool's revival where they are under genuine pressure to get a result.
Beat Liverpool and we're big favourites for 2nd place I'd say, let alone top 4. Top 4 would be virtually sealed for us if we did. Don't think we will, but I'm optimistic for a draw which would be an excellent result for us there. We always play like shit there.
One thing that we did yesterday was play with good width. I've been hoping for this for months, but it worked a treat. With the full backs overlapping our wingers, Spurs were being dragged all over the place. Then we had Fellaini drifting towards Walker which constantly freed up Young.
This width also created the space through the middle and allowed Carrick, Herrera and Mata to pull the strings with a lot of movement in behind for them to aim for. We absolutely need to stick with this principle. If we decide to step back to the slow, narrow play that we've seen a lot of then I'll be disappointed.
This width also created the space through the middle and allowed Carrick, Herrera and Mata to pull the strings with a lot of movement in behind for them to aim for. We absolutely need to stick with this principle. If we decide to step back to the slow, narrow play that we've seen a lot of then I'll be disappointed.
Against Spurs, for the first time in a long time, we looked like a real team. At last Van Gaal seems to be picking the players best suited to his system, instead of choosing his system based on how it lets him pick our best players.
I hope when Van Persie is fit, and Di Maria is available, that Van Gaal doesn't go back to trying to squeeze all United's stars into the starting line up. That's been the cause of so many of our problems this season. We all knew Rooney wasn't as good in midfield as Herrera, we all knew Falcao and Van Persie were off form and so on. Yet, for some reason, Van Gaal has been willing to bench players in form or play others out of position to accommodate the big names.
As shown yesterday, if we use a system that plays to the strengths of the squad as a whole rather than the strengths of our biggest names, we can beat anyone. Spurs have salvaged more points from losing positions than anyone in the league this season, pre-game all the talk was about Kane and Eriksen, and we blew them away in just over half an hour. Enough of Rooney in midfield, Di Maria up top, players being picked despite doing nothing to justify it. Stick with this system, play the guys who can press from the front and play their way out from the back, and we can go on a real run of wins.
I hope when Van Persie is fit, and Di Maria is available, that Van Gaal doesn't go back to trying to squeeze all United's stars into the starting line up. That's been the cause of so many of our problems this season. We all knew Rooney wasn't as good in midfield as Herrera, we all knew Falcao and Van Persie were off form and so on. Yet, for some reason, Van Gaal has been willing to bench players in form or play others out of position to accommodate the big names.
As shown yesterday, if we use a system that plays to the strengths of the squad as a whole rather than the strengths of our biggest names, we can beat anyone. Spurs have salvaged more points from losing positions than anyone in the league this season, pre-game all the talk was about Kane and Eriksen, and we blew them away in just over half an hour. Enough of Rooney in midfield, Di Maria up top, players being picked despite doing nothing to justify it. Stick with this system, play the guys who can press from the front and play their way out from the back, and we can go on a real run of wins.
I mean the formation, like 4-3-3, 3-5-2 and 4-4-2.
Since the loss to City on the 2nd November last year, the top 5 looks like this:
1) Man Utd PL 19 Pnts 43 GD +22
2) Arsenal PL 19 Pnts 40 GD +19
3) Man City PL 19 Pnts 38 GD +21
4) Chelsea PL 18 Pnts 38 GD +19
5) Liv'pool PL 18 Pnts 37 GD +12
Take it how you will, but we've shown title challenging form over the last 4 months. Continue this form whilst utilising the momentum gained from the last game, and we should be nailed on for a top 4 finish.
1) Man Utd PL 19 Pnts 43 GD +22
2) Arsenal PL 19 Pnts 40 GD +19
3) Man City PL 19 Pnts 38 GD +21
4) Chelsea PL 18 Pnts 38 GD +19
5) Liv'pool PL 18 Pnts 37 GD +12
Take it how you will, but we've shown title challenging form over the last 4 months. Continue this form whilst utilising the momentum gained from the last game, and we should be nailed on for a top 4 finish.
The manager started his job late, he used the first few matches assessing players, many of them were to leave and probably knew that or might not have wanted to be here since they were not guaranteed starters. It was all a mess, even attaining his transfer targets wasn't easy as such negotiations often take time, it was all a bit rushed.
The team after the transfer window closed was different to the one that started the season, from the first match after that transfer window shut (so well before the loss to city) the results are the following:
1) Chelsea - points 55 (pl - 25)
2) Man Utd - points 54 (pl - 26)
3) Man City - points 52 (pl - 26)
4) Arsenal - points 52 (pl - 26)
5) Liverpool - points 45 (pl - 25)
Mourinho and Pellegrini had last season to build on and got their transfer business done early, their advantage was they could work on players to sign last season too, we knew where Costa would end up! Rodgers had the last two seasons to build on and Wenger of course has been at Arsenal a long time.
Louis van Gaal came in after an incredible and intense world cup with the netherlands, lost quite a number of players from United and signed also quite a few, inherited a side not even in the champions league making signing players even more complicated and he had to make a lot of decisions quickly with limited information. Even if we miss out on top four I think it's worth giving him another season, we'll see how he does in the remaining nine games but he has performed quite well thus far considering his situation compared with that of our rivals.
Too many on here have been calling for him to be sacked but that means next season we will continue to put ourselves at a disadvantage, it doesn't make any sense to me.
I wasnt talking about formations though
I was talking about all of this crap about recycling the ball and thinking about the next move. As i said, they are good footballers, LVG needs to take the shackles off or more importantly know when its the time to take the shackles off. Thats why i've been so frustrated with him, we could have been trouncing teams earlier in the season but he didnt trust them. Its only now that he's beginning to see what the fans, media and possibly some of the players have been saying all season. Play key players in their normal position (rooney), play more direct, with a faster tempo and then we will get the right results.
tables smables. If you look at the form table over the last 6, then Liverpool are the team in form.
The only table that matters is the PL table at the end of the season
It was a lot more than a month ago. I think Mata's done quite well since the early part of the season. The Southampton away game was the last one I remember being unhapy with him in...although I still think he cowers away from things too much. Even yesterday he'd have scored if he actually attacked Fellaini's ball across.
Also, my criticism of him was down to his constant sideways passing and shying away from risky forward balls...which it turns out based on the enrtire team doing this, may well have been down to him doing what Van Gaal was telling him to do. So no I don't think it's unfair to criticise Van Gaal on that at all. I don't think there's been very many unfair criticisms of Van Gaal on here. Arguable criticisms in some cases yeah, but nothing that you can disprove any more than you can prove it.
Even with Fellaini. He was decent yesterday...but it's not so much him I've had the issue with as the pathetic Stoke tactics we'd try to use when he's on the pitch...which don't even really suit him due to his consistent inability to control a football within about 10 metres of himself. It's idiotic stuff. Yesterday we just seemed to play with so much more purpose and intelligence. I was genuinely surprised. We'd had a really decent 20 minute spell against Swansea recently before we descended into hoofball, but nothing to indicate we could turn it on like that.
That says it all, really.
Its no wonder that when the season started, he expected us to go for the title, but the problem was that our first 3-4 games were being played as experiments and with players who were not going to figure our first team (after the transfer window closed).
If he wasnt the manager of Netherlands and he arrived immediately after Moyes got sacked last season, I think we would've mounted a title challenge this year.
Its shocking that some people are suggesting that LVG get the sack. It makes no sense.
Yeah same. Sadly I don't think Rooney even has to play well to be better than those two. He just has to put his usual shift in and it's already more than the pair of them have been offering. Falcao tries but he's getting worse instead of better. Van Gaal clearly doesn't trust him, and it's not one of the things I'd take issue with Van Gaal for, because Falcao hasn't done enough to suggest Van Gaal is wrong.
RVP hasn't played well in nearly 2 years now. He gets goals because of his instincts and ability, but not enough to justify doing feck all in addition to that.
Now that, I agree with.
Do you not think we can say top 3? Just want to be a bit ambitious although it doesn't really matter. Top 2 is even better of course.
Although I am not the one who favour a sack of a manager of his magnitude after one season, I am also skeptical if he is the right fit considering his managerial style, his philosophy which might not be getting across easily hence taking so much time for the team to gel. I am certainly going for keeping him once we are guaranteed to able to play in Europe. The FA Cup exit was so disappointing when the only hope for a trophy was gone just like that. But that does not mean its reason for replacing him. As I said it is the long term that is mostly in our mind, that is if he's not goign to be the right fit why give him more time?
After yesterday though, this mentality has changed somewhat. Indeed we now know that under him, we could still play attractive football and players were playing with so much confidence, which means LvG is actually not as stubborn as we thought. IT is a breath of fresh air even and this happened with 10 games to play, rahter than just the last few games, because it means we are more on course to a top 4 and even third or second. The rest of the season will test the perseverance of our team, and whether he can work under pressure and still perform. And that his own ego is not bigger than the club (I said this because stubbornness without looking at the big picture doesn't get him anywhere).
we've sort of come across our most effective lineup by accident.
Rooney up front. Fellaini's physicality being utilised further up the pitch, and not letting his relative immobility hamper us in centre mid. Young/Mata/Di Maria's threats further forward.
No more 3 at the back nonsense.
Sunday was the first real glimpse of how effective we could be
Rooney up front. Fellaini's physicality being utilised further up the pitch, and not letting his relative immobility hamper us in centre mid. Young/Mata/Di Maria's threats further forward.
No more 3 at the back nonsense.
Sunday was the first real glimpse of how effective we could be
You could argue this has been a bit of a recurring theme, I cant remember who it was but someone pointed out some time ago that a lot of the most sensible decisions Van Gaal has made seem to have been imposed on him by circumstances, rather than decisions he took for tactical reasons. Such as dropping Van Persie and abandoning 3 at the back.
Yes, of course, the table at the end of the season is all that matters. However, I included that "mini" table to help demonstrate my opinion of LvG and thus, my verdict on his season so far. As Empire also states, people have been far too critical of LvG, especially, when you discount the few results before a number of our summer signings featured. Other than the stats, the improvement we've witnessed from some of the apparent dead wood is remarkable. I'd say, as of now, LvG's reign as manager, although not pretty, has been very impressive.
@redevil2 I was only being humble when I say "nailed on for top 4". Top 2 is as feasible as 4th; yesterdays performance should be regarded as a huge statement of intent to our rivals.
@Captain Hindsight a Statement of intent indeed. The weekend result has been such a joy not only because we won impressively over spurs, but also because of the lost points by Chelsea and City. If we go into the Liverpool game as confident as yesterday, Liverpool should be afraid! very afraid. Afterall, some of our players have huge experience of keeping calm in adversity in title chase, been there done that. The manager must ensure that he values and treasures these players' experience and courage and remind them anything can happen during this last stretch of the season. The end of season will show who really persevere and who will crumble like a house of cards... And who is a Come Back King. Teams should come to OT being afraid. Thanks to yesterday's performance.
Teams should come to OT being afraid. Thanks to yesterday's performance.@Captain Hindsight a Statement of intent indeed. The weekend result has been such a joy not only because we won impressively over spurs, but also because of the lost points by Chelsea and City. If we go into the Liverpool game as confident as yesterday, Liverpool should be afraid! very afraid. Afterall, some of our players have huge experience of keeping calm in adversity in title chase, been there done that. The manager must ensure that he values and treasures these players' experience and courage and remind them anything can happen during this last stretch of the season. The end of season will show who really persevere and who will crumble like a house of cards... And who is a Come Back King.
Agreed. Slowly but surely, our Colosseum is being rebuilt.
I do wonder if LVG is finally starting to understand English football. IMO starting the season with 3 at back showed his lack of understanding of the way football is played in the PL. Hopefully the penny has finally dropped.
He was asked about our played yesterday and IIRC then he said that he hasn't had the chance to pick that team and play that way because of injuries.
He was asked about our played yesterday and IIRC then he said that he hasn't had the chance to pick that team and play that way because of injuries.
Its frustrating from a fans POV that LVG has seemingly stumbled across this formula, when most of us have been demanding pretty much this exact team/set up for months on end. It does make you wonder what he (and the staff) are seeing that we're not.
I think that the infamous Leicester game affected him for a while with regards to play style, team selection etc. I also think that the pressure of finishing top 4 was something he may have under-estimated. I don't think he thought that our team would struggle as much as they did during the first 2 or 3 months of the season. And don't forget all those injuries we had prior to the New Year.
Basically, a number of circumstances have resulted in our ever changing tactics, formations, play style, team selections and so on.
Completely agree. I think that game had a far bigger negative effect on LVG, and his way of thinking, then it should have done. Or then we thought it would at the time.
Rather then seeing it as a freak result, he seemed to completely change his way of thinking because of it. As I say, its incredibly frustrating.
Since that result, we've actually picked up 51 points from 24 games, which isn't that bad.
I do agree that it should have been seen as a freak result, however, I think LvG immediately thought that, if he was to keep his job and ensure that we finish in the top 4, he'd have to make sure we'd never see that type of result and performance again. He took the necessary precautions.
It may well be the formation and line up you were after, but looking at this board generally I've seen no consensus about what line up or formation people want most. I doubt many line ups included Mata wide right, Fellaini as attacking MF and Di Maria left out entirely.
I agree with the sentiment but not the 3 at the back thing. People here are running scared of Liverpool these days and they play a very effective 3 defender system
Quite. There's no inherent reason a back 3 can't work. We just seemingly lacked the players for it.
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