United under LvG: verdict so far!
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No, if you give his - at the time - 71 year old self any shred of credit then you will accept that he retired because his wife's sister died.
Naturally, he will have wanted to leave on a high note, which he did, but I think it's really unfair on Ferguson when people imply his personal reasoning for retiring is false.
Are you serious, because that is a strange definition of a contradiction. There is a difference between talentless and lacking the necessary talent to achieve a certain standard. In fact your have misinterpreted my post and made a dramatic statement to try and support your argument by confusing the difference between the two.
He's in his 70's lol, why would he do another couple of seasons? He managed us foe 26 years and originally wanted to retire in 2001 I think, so the fact that he already gave us another decade or so was incredible.
And imo, he would easily have won the league last season, he would strengthened the squad again, and RVP probably would have scored 30 goals again. The team he left in 2013 almost knocked out a world class Real Madrid team under Mourinho, it's not his fault the 2 dinosaur managers we appointed after fecked his team up.
Agreed entirely.
Can you imagine this team with SAF in charge and another £150m of investment (as Van Gaal has enjoyed)...?
The notion we'd be struggling for 4th, or considering that a 'decent season' is laughable.
It's mental how far standards have fallen with the appointment of two unsuitable managers.
You seem to try to save face by not referring to your posts and mine and wanted to explain it away. Fail!
You said " the talent genuinely isn't there.
I asked you to point out which players you regarded as "no talent" or "lacking"
Then you went on to say, "... It's not about "talentless"...
Make up your mind before you post so you don't need to look you're contradicting yourself! Thanks
Exactly my point!!!
Agreed totally! The bar is already set lower as we don't have SAF any more but the extent to which some on here try to give the new manager excuses is ridiculous.
@redevil2
I haven't used the words talent or lacking, now I said that we have the 4th or 5th best roster in the league, and on top of that we have a coach who is/was learning about his players.
We have some special talents in Shaw, Januzaj, Herrera, Rooney, van Persie, Di Maria, Falcao, Wilson, Mata, Valdes, Carrick and De Gea. But they are not at the same stage:
- Carrick, van Persie and Falcao are struggling physically because of their ages and their recent injury record
- Wilson, Shaw and Wilson are at the beginning of their careers and neither of them have played in a competitive team, they don't now what is required.
- De Gea, Mata, Herrera, Rooney and Valdes are the only legitimate special talents.
If you compare this to our opponents:
Chelsea: Hazard, Oscar, Azpilicueta, Willian, Cuadrado, Fabregas, Terry, Matic, Diego Costa, Courtois, Cech, Zouma, Ivanovic.
Arsenal: Koscielny, Alexis Sanchez, Ramsey, Wilshere, Cazorla, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Mertesacker, Walcott.
City: Aguero, Dzeko, Nasri, David Silva, Yaya Touré, Zabaleta, Kompany, Joe Hart, Mangala.
And most importantly our opponents have dependable players to compliment their "talented" players, we don't.
I haven't used the words talent or lacking, now I said that we have the 4th or 5th best roster in the league, and on top of that we have a coach who is/was learning about his players.
We have some special talents in Shaw, Januzaj, Herrera, Rooney, van Persie, Di Maria, Falcao, Wilson, Mata, Valdes, Carrick and De Gea. But they are not at the same stage:
- Carrick, van Persie and Falcao are struggling physically because of their ages and their recent injury record
- Wilson, Shaw and Wilson are at the beginning of their careers and neither of them have played in a competitive team, they don't now what is required.
- De Gea, Mata, Herrera, Rooney and Valdes are the only legitimate special talents.
If you compare this to our opponents:
Chelsea: Hazard, Oscar, Azpilicueta, Willian, Cuadrado, Fabregas, Terry, Matic, Diego Costa, Courtois, Cech, Zouma, Ivanovic.
Arsenal: Koscielny, Alexis Sanchez, Ramsey, Wilshere, Cazorla, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Mertesacker, Walcott.
City: Aguero, Dzeko, Nasri, David Silva, Yaya Touré, Zabaleta, Kompany, Joe Hart, Mangala.
And most importantly our opponents have dependable players to compliment their "talented" players, we don't.
Thing is, you've compared us to Chelsea's squad, when the reality is that we're competing with Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal and Southampton for 3rd or 4th place.
Of course we should give a manager, especially one with pedigree, time. But if we're not careful those few years of transition since SAF retired, will soon turn into a decade or more of mediocrity....It is such a critical time for us right now........
I suggest you look up the definition of a contradiction as you clearly do not understand the meaning and I also suggest re reading your own post because you mention players being talent less and blame everything on the manager essentially. Your original point was we can improve the squad by not spending much money and promoting players, I think 99% of people who know anything about football would disagree with I that and it I something that just isn't going to happen.
Is it really a shock that a team without a quality centre half, no rb or lb that can remain fit, strikers past their best and a Poorly balanced midfield aren't guaranteed to challenge at the top and ares truffling to make the top four.
Your arguments and attempts to shoot down my argument by using incorrect definitions and talk about saving face and. Making my mind up are just nonsensical and I can draw a line under this knowing you Could not be more wrong. Thanks.
Yeah we are competing with the teams you mentioned, and Arsenal have a better manager and better squad, Liverpool have a good coherent squad and the coach knows his players since he chose them. Spurs also have a good team with a couple of excellent players and Southampton overachieved.
Now if I'm not mistaken except Arsenal the teams you mentioned are below us.
We would be so far ahead of everyone I could see him winning with a 20 point gap plus Di Maria and Falcao would be doing much better.
I think you are wrong, because according to some reports three players were targeted by SAF's staff, Strootman, Thiago and Garay, And we didn't bought players as good as them in their respective roles. And Ferguson would have ditched all our strikers and bought new ones.
Edit: And with SAF there is no Di Maria, Falcao, Mata and Fellaini while Evra is probably still here.
The fact you're saying 'Arsenal have a better manager than us' is what people have a problem with - we need to be aiming way higher than this. Arsenal haven't won the league in over a decade, and they have a better manager than us at present.
We're a club of Real/Barca/Bayern size, both commercially and in terms of trophy haul, and this just isn't good enough.
Nonsense. It was because of the death of his wife's sister.
And he would absolutely have been challenging with the same squad last season and this.
Well I never pretended that Van gaal was the best manager out there, and Wenger is a pretty good manager he is just very stingy.
What I'm saying is that we are around our level at the moment mainly because of our roster' limitations, last season Mourinho "only" finished 3rd with a team that I think was a lot stronger than us this year.
Another thing people seem to forget. We've had no European fixtures this season and we were knocked out the Capital one cup in the first round. Lpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, City all have played many more games than us yet they all look fresher and better than us in the final part of the season. With the all the time on the training ground we must have had, our position in the table isn't very good even currently. When exactly is this game plan, philosophy or whatever going to work?
You are saying if you were in charge you would finish no more than five places lower than what Moyes managed?
I'm not surprised you don't see much sign of improvement or foundations that are being put in place when you rate your football managerial ability so highly. Paul Scholes recently said he can see what Louis van Gaal is doing and he likes the concept, he has been critical because the standards are to challenge for the title therefore he will identify problems that still need to be solved but it's not that difficult to see what Louis van Gaal is working towards.
You seem to be overrating Louis van Gaal, he isn't guaranteed to help a team that finished 7th challenge for the title, he's not super man.
Where exactly did I blame SAF all I said was he knew the team we had couldn't win the league again and he was right.
You've absolutely no way of knowing this, RVP gave us a good season and has been on a rapid decline since so fergie been here wouldn't mean he would score 30 goals.
chelsea and City have strengthened well and our squad wouldn't be able to compete with those 2 teams now regardless of who was in charge
The Sir Alex comparisons are pointless he'd been here over 20 years he knew everything there was to know about running the club and how to win trophies here.
There are no comparisons because nobody has ever tried to replace a manager who has been at a club so long and won so many trophies, well apart from Moyes. Nobody else can be Sir Alex so we have to go in a different direction than what he set us up for obviously and change takes time.
The worrying thing for me is all the fans that seem eager to just chop and change until we happen to stumble upon the right manager. I don't think a lot of people will be happy until they see us playing as we were again and out of all the top managers today Mourinho, Guardiola that wouldn't be the case either.
There are no comparisons because nobody has ever tried to replace a manager who has been at a club so long and won so many trophies, well apart from Moyes. Nobody else can be Sir Alex so we have to go in a different direction than what he set us up for obviously and change takes time.
The worrying thing for me is all the fans that seem eager to just chop and change until we happen to stumble upon the right manager. I don't think a lot of people will be happy until they see us playing as we were again and out of all the top managers today Mourinho, Guardiola that wouldn't be the case either.
I think, in the main, fans and media have been fairly patient. LVG is far from conventional in anything he does, least of all total football. It follows therefore that when the team is performing badly, then questions will be asked. The objective this season of finishing in the top 4 is clear enough. The way he has gone about it, has been unconvincing though. Inconsistent and baffling team selections and tactics, unattractive football, and awkward media relations all contribute towards polarizing opinions. To judge him from what we see on the pitch it is hard to be optimistic. If it wasn't for his reputation for being a top class manager, the knives would have been out far, far sooner.
Agreed totally!
Everyone is entitled to some opinion basing on past experience and knowledge and trust on certain people. You are absolutely in no position to dismiss his view. Some on here repeatedly predicted that once we spend spend spend to "improve" the squad, it's more unrealistic we would be better because there are so many both factors aside from having big signings.
This post made no sense at all.
We competed with a much better and hungrier Man City team back in 2012 and 13 yet you think Fergie wouldn't have competed with this one? Not to mention Ferguson also took the title back of a much better Chelsea team than this one in 2007 as well. So yes I do know for a fact that Ferguson would have very likely won title number 21 last year. And what makes you think we wouldn't have strengthened either? And okay, fair enough on the RVP bit, but I think we would've gotten another world class year out of him easily.
Back to Van Gaal, well he has the perfect chance to shut his critics(Like me) up tomorrow by beating down Spurs and making the players motivated to catch and overtake City. Because every time we've had a chance to close the gap on them this season, we've ended up bottling it, so we will find out if that's changed later.
Match going fans i'd agree are very patient and have a better understanding of football than most sets of fans. The majority of comments I see on places like this it is about 50/50 at times between people who want him sacked. Any manager needs more than 9 months.
I disagree about from what we see on the pitch it is hard to be optimistic. I feel we are starting to get to the point he would like us to be at but then I have made my mind up by trying to find out about the methods he uses and so what we see makes more sense.
I'm not trying to say we couldn't be doing better at this point in time under a different manager but I think LVG has more chance of taking us to the top in Europe with the path he is taking us on than any of the short term motivators we could bring in. Mourinho for me was the only one with the technical coaching ability and motivational ability that could have hit the ground running and that is done now so we need to be patient.
The media for me seem eager to criticize but I think LVG has done well so far and has addressed most issues before they have got out of hand. There does seem to be a lot of negativity out there for him in the media the most disapointing thing is to see it from people like Scholes.
I believe SAF thought he was leaving his successor the basis for a great team. Exciting young players blended with a few older experienced players to help bring them through. Gaps in the squad yes but the financial backing was there to add the finishing touches, allow Moyes to leave his own mark on it.
It didn't turn out that way. But I don't believe for a minute SAF was bailing a sinking ship.
It didn't turn out that way. But I don't believe for a minute SAF was bailing a sinking ship.
I dearly hope that you are right. I do not have any doubt that he is a learned coach with grand ideas of how the game should be played. I do have reservations about his stubbornness though, particularly when it comes to selecting players (or not) in a particular position. Rafael is the obvious example, Rooney in CM another. Supposedly, knowledgable pundits, are probably far harsher than many on the Caf. Whether one chooses to delve into his footballing philosphies or not (and I know there is even a published book on this albeit from many years ago), I don't think it is obvious on the pitch, the progress which we are hoping to see. Ultimately, this season is about finishing in the top 4, but my god is he making hard work of it. I have not lost completely, the faith I had in him, before he took over, but I still wouldn't mind seeing objective evidence on the pitch. 10 games or so to go, it's finely balanced as to whether this season is a success or failure. I don't think that's a short term view, given the importance of being in the CL for obvious reasons....
Obviously a lot of the players I am about to mention are not rated that highly now but, on that last team you had 25 and younger players like De Gea Evans, Rafael, Cleverley, Welbeck, Jones, Kagawa all making meaningful contributions to that title win. I think he assumed that whoever took over would keep the good times rolling.
Rooney in midfield was strange but I think it was more Van Gaal feeling he didn't have anybody else for this role. I think if we go on to sign someone in this position as he has stated he will at least we know it was only out of desperation. And as we know it isn't something others havn't tried.
Rafael being left out is disappointing, personally I think he's class and exciting to watch. You think back to the days where LVG was in charge of Bayern when he naively got sent off against Ribery after Rafael was on a yellow. He still has this rashness to his game at times and that's the only reason I can think of. His attacks skills arn't enough to make up for the defensive lapses I don't think which for LVG comes first.
It's not obvious the progress no. I will admit even though I never voiced it I started to wonder what was going on. When I read about what he tries to do and now watch things it is a lot more clear to why we are having the problems we are. The signs I do see are subtle things but I said it at the time if you go back and watch Herrera's goal against Swansea that was the first time we have managed to do things exactly in the manner LVG wants. It has been slow progress but that is a big moment. Not that he wants that everytime but we know we can play direct, we know we can play long ball, we need to be able to pass the ball through a team to be able to beat the best, that is the ultimate aim.
The good thing for LVG I think is the next ten games. Rather than worry about them I think they will be where we start to see how far this team have come. Starting tomorrow against Spurs I expect us to move up a gear. The big games are the best judge of where a team is and I think we will see that. Along with Van Gaal the way City are playing and the fact we play most teams around us including them i'd fancy us to finish 2nd more than I would outside the top 4. We will see though and like anybody else if we don't make the top 4 I will start to have some slight doubts but I will at least give him until the end of next season before i'd make a call on him.
I'm happy to read the positive perspective, which holds some cautious optimism. I will say the one thing about LVG that I don't doubt is his mental strength and confidence which is much needed. Any signs of weakness now, and we're doomed. If we do get through and achieve top 4 , we could well flourish next season. Underlying all this I suspect he underestimated massively how difficult this league really is. For sure , he won't be making the same mistake next season!
Up till now, I've been very supportive of LVG. I guess I'm still reeling very much from the Arsenal match with that 2nd half performance, which I see as self inflicted. It was a massive game in the context of our season, and a very much winnable one- yet we floundered. Still, we move on, and I'll still behind the team 100% as always!
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Our squad is better than Arsenal's.
Of course, Wenger is much more experienced in EPL. And a lot of our players arrived last summer, so it is understandable that they don't play well together. Yet.
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That is true, I don't think there is anyone better at the moment for the job. The Arsenal game was pretty poor but sometimes you need these defeats for everybody to realise they need to step it up a bit. We need to see a response Van Gaal will realise that as much as anybody. I'm just glad it came in the F.A cup and not the league hopefully we can learn from it.
Could be wrong but if we don't make the top 4 I would be very very surprised.
My point about me managing was obviously flippant, God knows why you'd focus basically just on that, but the point is that there's a realistic limit to how far the bigger clubs can drop because of the difference in resources which wasn't the case in the mid 80s. My standards weren't to challenge for the title this season, they were for Van Gaal to be working towards something. He's not, to me it seems clear he's in panic mode at the moment and desperately trying to find any way of making the top 4. I don't see us building something when we're playing Fellaini in the hole now, Valencia at full back and repeatedly changing systems. If he finds a way to make the top 4, which I doubt at this stage, then I am confident that he can identify the players he wants and will have a full pre-season to implement what he actually wants us to do.
Exactly. He didn't buy that lot because they had a sale on young, shit footballers. It wasn't buy an inept defender and get a second half price at Muppets R Us (you didn't mention them but I had Jones and Smalling in mind, that's probably obvious). He brought those guys in because he thought they would constitute the basis of a solid squad for years to come. He was wrong, not neglectful, as far as that is concerned.
I think he feels it personally, I think the legacy, the smooth handover, was as important to him as his last title. Just because of the way he talked about it, the young squad and the importance of continuity. I don't know where people get this conviction that he realised he'd squeezed every last drop out of an inferior bunch of players. I'd be interested to know what comments or actions that's based on. It goes against everything he said as far as I can see. Not to get all preachy about it but it's actually a bit disrespectful. I'd like to see someone suggest it to his face, see what his thoughts about it were.
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