United under LvG: verdict so far!

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It's going to be exciting to see what happens, there's going to be hundreds of millions of twitchy asses around the world watching us, it's win or die and the players know it, he'll make sure they know it, panic mode can make a team dangerous and I hope it happens to us.

We also have goal difference on our side over Liverpool as of now, that could prove crucial, a lot of on here are worrying but I say enjoy the race, it's going to be worth it if we make it, the emotion experienced over these final twelve games will be unreal.
 
LvGs philosophy is to play tight, conservative ball and hope we go into the 2nd half either up 1-0 or tied at 0-0. He wants low scoring games and then just hope we nick a goal or two to win. If it's late and we need a goal his tactic changes to introduce wingers and let them attack or, later in the game, hoof the ball to Fellaini.

Summary:
Play narrow and don't take chances in defense or midfield
Get up 1-0 and hang on with dear life
If need goal late than expand attack, then long ball

Great philosophy LvG. So exciting and guaranteed to finish 7th or better. Could finish 4th or 5th but there is absolutely no room for error.
 
Listening to 5live and Chappers said he was near the dugout at Swansea and one of the things he noticed was the amount of times our players looked over to the bench. Said it was like a kid playing Sunday league and checking what his dad thought on the side line.

Do they do it because they don't know what to do? Looking for instructions? Checking for approval and criticism from the manager?
 
gerdm07 said:
LvGs philosophy is to play tight, conservative ball and hope we go into the 2nd half either up 1-0 or tied at 0-0. He wants low scoring games and then just hope we nick a goal or two to win. If it's late and we need a goal his tactic changes to introduce wingers and let them attack or, later in the game, hoof the ball to Fellaini.

Summary:
Play narrow and don't take chances in defense or midfield
Get up 1-0 and hang on with dear life
If need goal late than expand attack, then long ball

Great philosophy LvG. So exciting and guaranteed to finish 7th or better. Could finish 4th or 5th but there is absolutely no room for error.
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With the players we have at the moment, playing conservatively is pretty smart - particularly until the squad is more balanced (and it definitely isn't balanced).

Do you forget what happened at Leicester?
 
Sultan said:
Getting beat easily happens to all top teams on the rare occasion. It was one game. Top managers don't just change their principles/tactics due to these anomalies.
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But that is literally van Gaal did, to avoid any further "twitchy ass" moments as he said. Soon after the Leicester game we saw him switch to the 3-5-2 and play more tightly and conservatively for quite a long stretch of games.
 
pseudo_canadian said:
With the players we have at the moment, playing conservatively is pretty smart - particularly until the squad is more balanced (and it definitely isn't balanced).

Do you forget what happened at Leicester?
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Do we really need to play conservatively against burnley, Cambridge, Preston and Swansea?
 
gerdm07 said:
Do we really need to play conservatively against burnley, Cambridge, Preston and Swansea?
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All of those games, other than Cambridge, were pretty open in terms of play I think. Far from conservative. Swansea was probably the most open we've played in months, yet we still lost due to defensive liabilities and horrible finishing. That's just football.
 
pseudo_canadian said:
But that is literally van Gaal did, to avoid any further "twitchy ass" moments as he said. Soon after the Leicester game we saw him switch to the 3-5-2 and play more tightly and conservatively for quite a long stretch of games.
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It's hardly been a bed of roses since his constant formation and personnel changes since that game.
 
Sultan said:
It's hardly been a bed of roses since his constant formation and personnel changes since that game.
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We're 1 point off of third place at the end of February. Sure it hasn't been a bed of roses per say, but I'll take that - particularly with the ridiculous amount of injuries we had earlier in the season.
 
gerdm07 said:
Do we really need to play conservatively against burnley, Cambridge, Preston and Swansea?
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No. We don't. But Aloysius is not a pragmatist. He insists on the formula. At the moment, when the formula - clearly - hasn't been absorbed by the personnel at his disposal - he is right to do so. As such. They need to learn it, from his perspective - if they don't, they're no good to him. He has discarded/benched/frozen out plenty of brilliant footballers who didn't get or didn't get with the program.

He's more of a pragmatist these days than he used to be - sure. But he's still nothing like a true pragmatist. We can't expect him to transform into a risk taking, feck-philosophy, go-out-there-and-play sort of manager. That won't happen. Either he gets through to them to the extent that they start playing better football - or we don't. Start playing better football, that is. Whether we get 4th if the latter is true seems to be a bit arbitrary, to be honest. Because we don't have the luxury of competing in an easy league.
 
This sums up van gaal, he's been poor so far, but will and should get 3 years. If no improvement after that 3 year period, unfortunately a new manger will have to come in, who ever that is
 
Chesterlestreet said:
No. We don't. But Aloysius is not a pragmatist. He insists on the formula. At the moment, when the formula - clearly - hasn't been absorbed by the personnel at his disposal - he is right to do so. As such. They need to learn it, from his perspective - if they don't, they're no good to him. He has discarded/benched/frozen out plenty of brilliant footballers who didn't get or didn't get with the program.

He's more of a pragmatist these days than he used to be - sure. But he's still nothing like a true pragmatist. We can't expect him to transform into a risk taking, feck-philosophy, go-out-there-and-play sort of manager. That won't happen. Either he gets through to them to the extent that they start playing better football - or we don't. Start playing better football, that is. Whether we get 4th if the latter is true seems to be a bit arbitrary, to be honest. Because we don't have the luxury of competing in an easy league.
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Good post.
 
Oneunited26 said:
This sums up van gaal, he's been poor so far, but will and should get 3 years. If no improvement after that 3 year period, unfortunately a new manger will have to come in, who ever that is
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You mean as long as we make top four? If we don't then one more year but even then we should expect a title challenge next season, things have gone horribly wrong, I'm still optimistic because we should have put three past Swansea therefore if we can replicate that attacking performance in the next three games I would expect nine points but of course we need to be better defensively.

The margin for error now has reduced to nothing since we are bound to drop points in our tough away matches.
 
Sultan said:
Getting beat easily happens to all top teams on the rare occasion. It was one game. Top managers don't just change their principles/tactics due to these anomalies.
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It wasn't an anomaly. We concede 16 goals in our first 6 games.

We've played 25 games since that game and conceded 18.
 
Empire said:
You mean as long as we make top four? If we don't then one more year but even then we should expect a title challenge next season, things have gone horribly wrong, I'm still optimistic because we should have put three past Swansea therefore if we can replicate that attacking performance in the next three games I would expect nine points but of course we need to be better defensively.

The margin for error now has reduced to nothing since we are bound to drop points in our tough away matches.
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Even expecting a title challenge next year could be tough ask, Chelsea for example have won the League one time in the last eight years, rebuilding takes time, even Sir Alex needed 3 years to rebuild his side after the 2003 title, finally reemerging as a force in 2006-07, the fans were getting on his back after 2x 3rd place finishes.. Fergie even said he thought his time at the club was up...
I think we, the fanbase needs to have some patience, its just infuriating to all of us since we basically wasted all of last season for nought.
 
pseudo_canadian said:
All of those games, other than Cambridge, were pretty open in terms of play I think. Far from conservative. Swansea was probably the most open we've played in months, yet we still lost due to defensive liabilities and horrible finishing. That's just football.
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Swansea was not open. Just note how few times DM and Herrera were receiving a ball on the touch line. Shaw and paddy were giving the width and it was obvious the mids were instructed to stay narrow.

We played with width the 2nd game vs Cambridge (janucaj was hugging touch line) and the last 20 vs burnley. And we looked dangerous as it opens space up inside when we have skillful wingers.

Again, why do we have to start every match, regardless of the opponent, narrow and conservative?
Shouldn't we be fine tuning our expansive formation against weaker teams?
 
Hed Zitin said:
Listening to 5live and Chappers said he was near the dugout at Swansea and one of the things he noticed was the amount of times our players looked over to the bench. Said it was like a kid playing Sunday league and checking what his dad thought on the side line.

Do they do it because they don't know what to do? Looking for instructions? Checking for approval and criticism from the manager?
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I think they are looking for leadership but it's just not coming from our dug out. No matter how bad things get on the pitch the players are on their own they will get no help from LVG. He has to be the most lethargic manager I have ever seen.

If we lost but he showed some passion I wouldn't mind but he seems oblivious to the plight of the players on the pitch in front of him.

He will then come out and say that we didn't perform first half in a press conference but he will have made no effort to change that through the half.

He might give out wisdom during the half time break but that's just not good enough for me.
 
Fully Fledged said:
I think they are looking for leadership but it's just not coming from our dug out. No matter how bad things get on the pitch the players are on their own they will get no help from LVG. He has to be the most lethargic manager I have ever seen.

If we lost but he showed some passion I wouldn't mind but he seems oblivious to the plight of the players on the pitch in front of him.

He will then come out and say that we didn't perform first half in a press conference but he will have made no effort to change that through the half.

He might give out wisdom during the half time break but that's just not good enough for me.
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Seems like the leadership coming from the management team, is that inspired pencil and notebook he keeps using
 
Looking at the first half of Barca against City and I get the feeling that this is the model which LvG wants to build. Dominant in possession, limiting City to a couple of half chances and opening up their defence with quick passing. Obviously our forwards aren't a patch on theirs, but there are other areas where we're so obviously deficient the first being speed of passing. We simply don't have the players who can keep the ball circulating quickly and neither do we have enough midfielders who can carry the ball forward. Pique and Mascherano carry it forward and are effective in it because the pass after they release it is moved on so quickly.
 
I will never understand why people attach so much significance to a manager shouting on the touchline.

I mean:

Fully Fledged said:
If we lost but he showed some passion I wouldn't mind but he seems oblivious to the plight of the players on the pitch in front of him.
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Really? If we lost, but Van Gaal was screaming and waving his arms about on the touchline, youd be happy?

Not singling you out, I know a lot of people feel this way. Which is fair enough. I just cant understand it. For me, if there is an urgent message that needs to be delivered, having Giggs or someone calmly pass it on to a player on the touchline seems just as effective. Anything communicated in the dressing room, where the players can sit and focus on what he is saying, is likely to be much more clearly understood.

I mean, this is just the way he operates, and he has had plenty of success over the years, so I dont see a problem. Unless the PL is a league where mad gesticulation on the touchline is more important than in other leagues?
 
Also I dont think saying "our team lacks balance" excuses anybody. It is an explanation, but not an excuse. It was his job to balance it. If you sign 6 players in a summer, you should be able to restore balance to a squad. He'd identified the lack of balance thing well before that summer window closed. But if you want to be really generous to him and say he couldnt have fully appreciated how unbalanced it was before the window closed then he should have done something about it in January.

I think he is right to a point but a) I think he exacerbates the problem with his selections and b) he should have done more to resolve the problem.
 
Adebesi said:
I will never understand why people attach so much significance to a manager shouting on the touchline.

I mean:



Really? If we lost, but Van Gaal was screaming and waving his arms about on the touchline, youd be happy?

Not singling you out, I know a lot of people feel this way. Which is fair enough. I just cant understand it. For me, if there is an urgent message that needs to be delivered, having Giggs or someone calmly pass it on to a player on the touchline seems just as effective. Anything communicated in the dressing room, where the players can sit and focus on what he is saying, is likely to be much more clearly understood.

I mean, this is just the way he operates, and he has had plenty of success over the years, so I dont see a problem. Unless the PL is a league where mad gesticulation on the touchline is more important than in other leagues?
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It is he sits in the press conference and say that the first half was a write off week after week. If he can see that why not try and do something about it?

Just thinking, 'well we are playing abysmal this half again,' but waiting until half time to say anything just seems such a waste of a half to me. What if we come out in the second half and still don't play the way he wants? do we give up on the whole game because he's not prepared to instruct the team from the sidelines?

Our whole game at the moment seems to mirror him sitting there in the dug out, it lacks even the slightest hint of passion.
 
Fully Fledged said:
It is he sits in the press conference and say that the first half was a write off week after week. If he can see that why not try and do something about it?

Just thinking, 'well we are playing abysmal this half again,' but waiting until half time to say anything just seems such a waste of a half to me. What if we come out in the second half and still don't play the way he wants? do we give up on the whole game because he's not prepared to instruct the team from the sidelines?

Our whole game at the moment seems to mirror him sitting there in the dug out, it lacks even the slightest hint of passion.
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But we used to play shit for a half under SAF too, him screaming and jumping about on the touchline didnt eliminate that occasional tendency.

I guess it comes down to whether you think the shouting on the touchline actually does anything. I dont think it does.

There is no way Im going to do this but Id be interested to see someone do some research on this. Look at every manager in the league, score them on how much they shout on the touchline. Chart that against performance. Is there any correlation? Id be amazed if there was. Not just in terms of results, in terms of ability to come back from losing positions or whatever.

I really think managers shout on the touchline for their own benefit, not for the team's. Its like if you hit your thumb with a hammer, you shout out in pain. It doesnt particularly move you any closer to your objective of putting up your shelf or whatever, but it makes you feel a bit better, it releases a bit of energy. I imagine some managers feel a bit helpless sitting on the bench doing nothing while their team is losing or not carrying out their instructions properly so they shout and scream, almost reflexively.

That's how I see it anyway. I just cant imagine any of the players are paying any attention, they must be focused on the game. I would hope they would be, rather than trying to block out the sound of the fans to make out what the hell their manager is screaming about on the touchline.

Obviously this is not black and white, clearly sometimes there are tactical changes which are communicated from the bench. But I dont think there needs to be a significant level of passion expressed while conveying that. On the contrary, it is probably easier to convey calmly than passionately.
 
Adebesi said:
But we used to play shit for a half under SAF too, him screaming and jumping about on the touchline didnt eliminate that occasional tendency.

I guess it comes down to whether you think the shouting on the touchline actually does anything. I dont think it does.

There is no way Im going to do this but Id be interested to see someone do some research on this. Look at every manager in the league, score them on how much they shout on the touchline. Chart that against performance. Is there any correlation? Id be amazed if there was. Not just in terms of results, in terms of ability to come back from losing positions or whatever.

I really think managers shout on the touchline for their own benefit, not for the team's. Its like if you hit your thumb with a hammer, you shout out in pain. It doesnt particularly move you any closer to your objective of putting up your shelf or whatever, but it makes you feel a bit better, it releases a bit of energy. I imagine some managers feel a bit helpless sitting on the bench doing nothing while their team is losing or not carrying out their instructions properly so they shout and scream, almost reflexively.

That's how I see it anyway. I just cant imagine any of the players are paying any attention, they must be focused on the game. I would hope they would be, rather than trying to block out the sound of the fans to make out what the hell their manager is screaming about on the touchline.

Obviously this is not black and white, clearly sometimes there are tactical changes which are communicated from the bench. But I dont think there needs to be a significant level of passion expressed while conveying that. On the contrary, it is probably easier to convey calmly than passionately.
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I think it did make a difference. The amount of times he would spur the team on to pull a win from a losing position in the last ten minutes of a game. It was his passion and ambition that would push the team on to score the two goals to win the game.

This was never more evident than in 1999 in The Camp Nou. We should have been down and out but SAF spurred them on for one more push. Then once they made that break he spurred them on again rather than waiting for extra time. His drive and passion to keep on until the whistle is what made us the team we were of his time at OT.

That would have never have happened under LVG they would have continued to aimlessly play the ball around the defense, the way they do when we are losing matches now, hoping for an opportunity to happen rather than making it happen.
 
Hed Zitin said:
Listening to 5live and Chappers said he was near the dugout at Swansea and one of the things he noticed was the amount of times our players looked over to the bench. Said it was like a kid playing Sunday league and checking what his dad thought on the side line.

Do they do it because they don't know what to do? Looking for instructions? Checking for approval and criticism from the manager?
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It would be nice if once in a while the manager got off his throne and went to the sidelines, either to provide encouragement or to scream at the players. Never seen any coach or manager do what LvG is doing, sitting on his throne for 90+ minutes. I don't want him on the sidelines for 90 minutes, but once in a while would do.
 
Adebesi said:
I will never understand why people attach so much significance to a manager shouting on the touchline.

I mean:



Really? If we lost, but Van Gaal was screaming and waving his arms about on the touchline, youd be happy?

Not singling you out, I know a lot of people feel this way. Which is fair enough. I just cant understand it. For me, if there is an urgent message that needs to be delivered, having Giggs or someone calmly pass it on to a player on the touchline seems just as effective. Anything communicated in the dressing room, where the players can sit and focus on what he is saying, is likely to be much more clearly understood.

I mean, this is just the way he operates, and he has had plenty of success over the years, so I dont see a problem. Unless the PL is a league where mad gesticulation on the touchline is more important than in other leagues?
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I agree with the screaming and shouting, that doesn't do any good at all. However I am beginning to think he sends them out with certain instructions and when a different outcome is happening they don't know what to do. I think they would just like some instructions at that time, not half time or at the end of the game, when it might be too late.
 
Fully Fledged said:
I think it did make a difference. The amount of times he would spur the team on to pull a win from a losing position in the last ten minutes of a game. It was his passion and ambition that would push the team on to score the two goals to win the game.

This was never more evident than in 1999 in The Camp Nou. We should have been down and out but SAF spurred them on for one more push. Then once they made that break he spurred them on again rather than waiting for extra time. His drive and passion to keep on until the whistle is what made us the team we were of his time at OT.

That would have never have happened under LVG they would have continued to aimlessly play the ball around the defense, the way they do when we are losing matches now, hoping for an opportunity to happen rather than making it happen.
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No doubt, but was it the screaming and shouting on the touchline that pushed them over the line, or was it the spirit he instilled in them on the training ground, and over a sustained period of time? SAF managed to instill a bit of himself in his players, he made them fighters with a never say die attitude. But the attitude was inside his players by then, they didnt get that from him on the touchline that evening. IMO anyway.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I agree with the screaming and shouting, that doesn't do any good at all. However I am beginning to think he sends them out with certain instructions and when a different outcome is happening they don't know what to do. I think they would just like some instructions at that time, not half time or at the end of the game, when it might be too late.
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Maybe.

I get the impression (PHILOSOPHY ALERT!) his idea is to teach his players how to think so they can make the right decisions for themselves on the pitch, within the confines of LVG's system - which, as he never tires of saying, is nothing to do with formations. So if the players are looking for instructions from the manager because the game isnt going according to plan... well, if he has sent them out with such specific instructions as you said, that kind of contradicts my understanding of how he manages his players.

Anyway, he can and does change formations or tactics within games, we saw it at the WC and we have seen it this season. Again, this isnt about whether he can or does communicate with his players during games. Clearly he can and does. The question is whether that is more or less effective via shouting passionately. Whether a manager lacking passion on the touchline is a problem. I dont think it is, as I said, as I think a manager can sit quietly, contemplatively, apparently to any observer completely emotionlessly, and still do his job impeccably. I dont see jumping about and getting excited as part of the job description, but more a style that works for some managers and doesnt work for others.
 
We are 4th, 1 point off 3rd and all this hysteria? I know we should be doing better but so should Liverpool who finished 2nd last time out, Arsenal who enjoy the stability of Wenger etc - but we're 4th now, after finishing 7th last season. What did people expect? A seamless transition, with free flowing attacking football and enough points to challenge for the league? It's ridiculous that there's these negativity after we lost a game of football. LVG is a process manager, his methods has never worked instantly anywhere he has managed [even though i expect him to be doing better]. It's a shame that there's even talks of sacking him despite the fact that we're on course to meet the target and not showing any sign of a terminal decline or things like that. 2 wins in a row and everything will change.
 
What did people expect? I can only really speak for myself but I think what I expected was for things to be tough for the first half of the season but then to improve in the second. That was kind of what he lead us to expect.

That still might be the case. We have time to finish this season really strongly. But there are also signs that the season may end up being a bit like last, when things fizzle out rather than pick up as the season wears on and we end up out of the CL.

I think people need to keep perspective and, ideally, hope. But its not hard to see why people are starting to panic.
 
Woodenlung said:
Looking at the first half of Barca against City and I get the feeling that this is the model which LvG wants to build. Dominant in possession, limiting City to a couple of half chances and opening up their defence with quick passing. Obviously our forwards aren't a patch on theirs, but there are other areas where we're so obviously deficient the first being speed of passing. We simply don't have the players who can keep the ball circulating quickly and neither do we have enough midfielders who can carry the ball forward. Pique and Mascherano carry it forward and are effective in it because the pass after they release it is moved on so quickly.
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I really hope he is not aiming to emulate Barca because we haven't and never will have players with talent anywhere near theirs.
 
Some of LVG's decisions this season have been absolutely breathtakingly stupid.

- Suddenly deciding McNair is a right back, midway through the season and dropping Valencia (who's actually been quite good) for him for a tough away match against Swansea
- Playing Di Maria up front
- Playing Rooney in midfield
- Playing a midfield 3 including Januzaj and Rooney against West Ham, away, while Herrera and Fellaini sit on the bench
- Playing Fellaini as a #10 while Mata rots on the bench
- Playing Di Maria as a #10 while Mata rots on the bench
- Ignoring Januzaj for half a season then suddenly throwing him back in...in midfield
- Playing Jones and Rojo together
- Persisting with a front line of Falcao and RVP despite it having as much dynamism as a tortoise

I could go on. He's making decisions that we can all see are clearly not going to work. As @noodlehair said, if most of the cafe can predict whats going to go wrong the minute the lineups are announced (and they're right) then you know you're not doing you're job properly. I could take another difficult season (I was one of the few on here expecting it), but these moronic decisions are just unacceptable.
 
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