Hate his Rvp fettish...
But like his style.
But like his style.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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When he guides us to third and wins the fa cup,many in the media wil look awful foolish.
Under Moyes we were getting worse the longer he stayed.
Under LVG, we are getting better with more matches.
I think Moyes initially rode the Fergie success in that the team was pretty much still playing the same way against the lower teams. The more Moyes was in control, imo, the worse our performances became especially the big matches.
Under LVG, we are creating chances from the left, the right, set pieces and through the middle and are doing ok in terms of scoring. Our defence however seems to have a mistake every game and each mistake seems to be punished deadly by the opposition which makes it worse than it should be.
Under LVG, we are getting better with more matches.
I think Moyes initially rode the Fergie success in that the team was pretty much still playing the same way against the lower teams. The more Moyes was in control, imo, the worse our performances became especially the big matches.
Under LVG, we are creating chances from the left, the right, set pieces and through the middle and are doing ok in terms of scoring. Our defence however seems to have a mistake every game and each mistake seems to be punished deadly by the opposition which makes it worse than it should be.
Our record for Moyes' last 9 league games in charge:
Played: 9
Won: 5
Drawn: 1
Lost: 3
Goals for: 15
Goals against: 10
Points: 16
Average points per game: 1.78
Our record for LvG's first 9 league games in charge:
Played: 9
Won: 3
Drawn: 4
Lost: 2
Goals for: 16
Goals against: 13
Points: 13
Average points per game: 1.44
I am excited by the new regime, we definitely making progress and you can see the players performance improving game by game.
It hasn't been boring anyway. That's for sure.
I'm far from convinced but there are things I like and things I don't like.
Things I like:
- He's good at giving off an air of confidence and says things that seem to indicate he knows where the problems are
- We play with tempo
- He drops people who are shite and tries to stick with a first 11, rather than rotating people in and out just for the sake of rotating people in and out.
- Doesn't criticise the players but doesn't give them excuses to hide behind either.
Things I don't like:
- Insistence on playing ridiculously imbalanced systems that make it impossible for us to have any control over any game, just to try and fit in all of our attacking players, despite it meaning almost none of them can play effectively anyway
- Partly manufacturing a situation where we have an embarassingly imbalanced squad, which has inevitably led to the above.
- General terribleness of on field performances
- Worrying illusion from fans that he's doing better than Moyes, when so far considering the fixtures and money spent, we seem to be doing massively worse.
To be fair, Sunday he set the team up well...If he changes to a 4-3-3 type system going forwards (or 4-2-3-1...whatever you want to call it) and plays only one striker with one no10 type player to support. I think we'll be ok. If he carries on trying to funnel two or three strikers into one team, AND wants two of his midfielders doubling up as wingers at the same time, we're going to continue being absolutely shite.
One of Mata and Rooney, and one of RVP and Falcao, need to be sitting on the bench for us to play as an effective team. That's the simple fact. It's obvious now and it was obvious on deadline day which is what makes it so fecking stupid. No coincidence that our two better performances have been when we've been forced into doing this(I don't count QPR because they were embarrassingly bad).
Things I like:
- He's good at giving off an air of confidence and says things that seem to indicate he knows where the problems are
- We play with tempo
- He drops people who are shite and tries to stick with a first 11, rather than rotating people in and out just for the sake of rotating people in and out.
- Doesn't criticise the players but doesn't give them excuses to hide behind either.
Things I don't like:
- Insistence on playing ridiculously imbalanced systems that make it impossible for us to have any control over any game, just to try and fit in all of our attacking players, despite it meaning almost none of them can play effectively anyway
- Partly manufacturing a situation where we have an embarassingly imbalanced squad, which has inevitably led to the above.
- General terribleness of on field performances
- Worrying illusion from fans that he's doing better than Moyes, when so far considering the fixtures and money spent, we seem to be doing massively worse.
To be fair, Sunday he set the team up well...If he changes to a 4-3-3 type system going forwards (or 4-2-3-1...whatever you want to call it) and plays only one striker with one no10 type player to support. I think we'll be ok. If he carries on trying to funnel two or three strikers into one team, AND wants two of his midfielders doubling up as wingers at the same time, we're going to continue being absolutely shite.
One of Mata and Rooney, and one of RVP and Falcao, need to be sitting on the bench for us to play as an effective team. That's the simple fact. It's obvious now and it was obvious on deadline day which is what makes it so fecking stupid. No coincidence that our two better performances have been when we've been forced into doing this(I don't count QPR because they were embarrassingly bad).
I never thought we would be higher than we currently are. The premier league is unforgiving to teams in transition and LVG has always been a slow starter.
I figured we'd struggle for the first half of the season so I'm not particularly surprised with results so far.
I was also expecting us to be a lot better after January so the signs of improvement aren't unexpected either. In fact no improvement would've been shocking given the money we spent and the low point we were starting from.
So yeah, LvG has done an acceptable job thus far but nothing more than that. Tbf though it is still very early days, he did say it would take a while do adapt and he has the track record and pedigree to suggest things will improve.
I was also expecting us to be a lot better after January so the signs of improvement aren't unexpected either. In fact no improvement would've been shocking given the money we spent and the low point we were starting from.
So yeah, LvG has done an acceptable job thus far but nothing more than that. Tbf though it is still very early days, he did say it would take a while do adapt and he has the track record and pedigree to suggest things will improve.
I'm quite optimistic. Not really concerned with our league position, but more so whether Van Gaal is or isn't gradually getting the players to play as a team and within his system, which seems to be slowly working.
Like him and the aura he brings to the club, performances have been soso but will only improve. i would give him a C+ so far simply because he's not moyes and that negativity.
Moving in the right direction, but hard to adequately judge with the rash of injuries we are suffering once again this season. I said over the summer it was going to take more than one window to complete the rebuilding and nothing I have seen has made me change my mind, except that now I think it might actually take 2 more summer windows to complete the job.
If his new training staff can get the injury issues sorted so that we do not have a new injury crisis every two weeks, that will go a long way to moving things along in the right direction.
Overall I think he is doing well.
If his new training staff can get the injury issues sorted so that we do not have a new injury crisis every two weeks, that will go a long way to moving things along in the right direction.
Overall I think he is doing well.
I've been very impressed by what I have seen and heard form him so far. The results are, obvously, disappointing but they will follow soon enough.
It's so easy to see how inspiring and confident he is, Moyes couldn't inspire a wet cat do come inside to dry up and get warm.
It's so easy to see how inspiring and confident he is, Moyes couldn't inspire a wet cat do come inside to dry up and get warm.
I'm happier than last season for sure (although one point worse off) and I understand its a long rebuild/restructure process we are going through however we should be higher up the league without doubt, a lot of points dropped and defensively all over the shop at times. I think the manager could have done more from the touchline in some of our earlier games, maybe it was the realization of the task at hand hitting him but he seemed a bit rabbit in the headlights during games which was especially surprising considering his experience.
I'm also not 100% convinced with his 'philosophy' or with his transfer window. I was very excited about most of the new arrivals but I still do not believe he tried hard enough to fix the obvious problems we had - an average midfield and defence. Hopefully he will go someway further to rectifying this in the next summer window with more time to prepare. Maybe it was his over confidence in himself (which I like) and his belief in the players which he had limited time to really assess, either way I was never convinced this team could challenge for the title. Di Maria in particular is a marvelous addition and our best player so far but a dynamic box to box midfielder who can dominate games was required as well as a really top class CB. We got neither.
I think he will get us 4th spot just but next season with a couple of the right additions I really believe we will challenge for the title again.
I'm also not 100% convinced with his 'philosophy' or with his transfer window. I was very excited about most of the new arrivals but I still do not believe he tried hard enough to fix the obvious problems we had - an average midfield and defence. Hopefully he will go someway further to rectifying this in the next summer window with more time to prepare. Maybe it was his over confidence in himself (which I like) and his belief in the players which he had limited time to really assess, either way I was never convinced this team could challenge for the title. Di Maria in particular is a marvelous addition and our best player so far but a dynamic box to box midfielder who can dominate games was required as well as a really top class CB. We got neither.
I think he will get us 4th spot just but next season with a couple of the right additions I really believe we will challenge for the title again.
Lot more cool, calm and collected than I expected him to be. I'm also more cool, calm and collected than I expected to be after Moyes. The squad are playing better football than they have in a year or two. But he''ll need time yet.
He'll do fine for me.
He'll do fine for me.
Gradual improvement. Even when we are not getting results, I think the signs of improvement are visible in the performances.
I was worried Van Gaal was going to be stubborn and force his ideas to work, instead of encountering problems and adapting. Of course, I'm referring to the back 3. I really wanted it to work, because it's quite an exciting shift in mentality and tactical approach, but it was a bit of a nightmare really. I'm glad he dismissed it quickly and opted for an attacking 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. We're leaking goals, but I put that down to injuries more than anything. You look at how Chelsea have played the same back four in every league game this season (except for yesterday when Azpil was missing for the first time) compared to us, where we have fielded a different defence in every game. Back 3s, back 4s, wing backs, kids making debuts, centre back pairings who have never played together before etc. It's incredibly damaging to any sort of continuity we are trying to build, and that's not really LvG's fault. If anything, it's to his credit that he didn't stick Fletcher or Fellaini back there, and instead he has given actual young centre backs a proper go. He seems against putting square pegs in round holes, something we've witnesses as United fans for the last few years. I like that.
I like him. I see a belief and a calmness in him. When we concede, he doesn't push the panic button. He doesn't look flustered. He doesn't look like a puzzled "I just don't know what we have to do to win" David Moyes. He has an aura about him. He seems like a genuinely good guy, but like Fergie, if you word a question in a way he doesn't like, he will bite back. He seems cut out for a job of this calibre, where as I wasn't ever convinced Moyes would grasp just how massive the job is.
Van Gaal is the right man, and I hope he is given the time needed. I think he will, but if he doesn't make the top 4, then he needs to be able to continue to build next season as well.
I was worried Van Gaal was going to be stubborn and force his ideas to work, instead of encountering problems and adapting. Of course, I'm referring to the back 3. I really wanted it to work, because it's quite an exciting shift in mentality and tactical approach, but it was a bit of a nightmare really. I'm glad he dismissed it quickly and opted for an attacking 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. We're leaking goals, but I put that down to injuries more than anything. You look at how Chelsea have played the same back four in every league game this season (except for yesterday when Azpil was missing for the first time) compared to us, where we have fielded a different defence in every game. Back 3s, back 4s, wing backs, kids making debuts, centre back pairings who have never played together before etc. It's incredibly damaging to any sort of continuity we are trying to build, and that's not really LvG's fault. If anything, it's to his credit that he didn't stick Fletcher or Fellaini back there, and instead he has given actual young centre backs a proper go. He seems against putting square pegs in round holes, something we've witnesses as United fans for the last few years. I like that.
I like him. I see a belief and a calmness in him. When we concede, he doesn't push the panic button. He doesn't look flustered. He doesn't look like a puzzled "I just don't know what we have to do to win" David Moyes. He has an aura about him. He seems like a genuinely good guy, but like Fergie, if you word a question in a way he doesn't like, he will bite back. He seems cut out for a job of this calibre, where as I wasn't ever convinced Moyes would grasp just how massive the job is.
Van Gaal is the right man, and I hope he is given the time needed. I think he will, but if he doesn't make the top 4, then he needs to be able to continue to build next season as well.
All those who are saying they are feeling much better than the same time last year should review some of the postings from this time last year, and you will find a similar cautious optimism and faith that the manager will be proven right in due time. It took quite a bit longer than 9 matches for the consensus that the wheels were falling off to be reached. In fact, ignoring preseason, it's reasonable to conclude that Moyes had a better start.
We have certainly made steps towards the right direction but we are still miles away from where we want to get. I'm not being negative, the manager himself has admitted that there's still a lot of work to be done and that we're not at Chelsea's or City's level, right now.
There's faith that LvG will make us competitive again and that's understandable because he's done it before, his managerial CV is full of successes of that kind at Ajax, at Barcelona, at Alkmaar or even Bayern Munich. Taking over at a club that's been in the wilderness for some time and leading them to "glory days" again is what LvG specializes in as a manager.
So, there's great promise that once Blind, Herrera and Di Maria form a solid and compact midfield partnership in the midfield and Falcao, Rooney and RvP learn each other's game and when we find a stable CB pairing the whole team will start to perform much better on the pitch.
But the problems regarding our slow build up play haven't gone away while our inability to create anything decent through the center is ever present. Our best way to attack is still from the wide areas and when Herrera or Rooney are missing there's little to none penetration in the opponent's box. The biggest problem remains the absence of any kind of pressing, high or in the middle of the pitch which doesn't give us the opportunity to retain possession in the opponent's half. I personally believe that this a problem that can only be solved by bringing in some new players but i will be more than happy if i'm proven wrong.
LvG must take credit for shipping off some of the deadwood and i'm sure that more players will leave the club in the next couple of years. He also continues the United tradition of giving youngsters their chance to prove they deserve a place in the first team. He's got the determination to reshape the whole squad, something his predecessor was too afraid or hesitant to do and it cost us a lot of precious time while our main rivals were making huge steps forward.
I feel we can't draw any safe conclusions yet, in fact i think that this thread is going to be full of negativity next Sunday after the City game. The period from November 8th until March 14th, where we have only two big matches with Arsenal and Liverpool away and we face Tottenham, Southampton and almost every other midtable club home and away will show us if we're improving or not.
There's faith that LvG will make us competitive again and that's understandable because he's done it before, his managerial CV is full of successes of that kind at Ajax, at Barcelona, at Alkmaar or even Bayern Munich. Taking over at a club that's been in the wilderness for some time and leading them to "glory days" again is what LvG specializes in as a manager.
So, there's great promise that once Blind, Herrera and Di Maria form a solid and compact midfield partnership in the midfield and Falcao, Rooney and RvP learn each other's game and when we find a stable CB pairing the whole team will start to perform much better on the pitch.
But the problems regarding our slow build up play haven't gone away while our inability to create anything decent through the center is ever present. Our best way to attack is still from the wide areas and when Herrera or Rooney are missing there's little to none penetration in the opponent's box. The biggest problem remains the absence of any kind of pressing, high or in the middle of the pitch which doesn't give us the opportunity to retain possession in the opponent's half. I personally believe that this a problem that can only be solved by bringing in some new players but i will be more than happy if i'm proven wrong.
LvG must take credit for shipping off some of the deadwood and i'm sure that more players will leave the club in the next couple of years. He also continues the United tradition of giving youngsters their chance to prove they deserve a place in the first team. He's got the determination to reshape the whole squad, something his predecessor was too afraid or hesitant to do and it cost us a lot of precious time while our main rivals were making huge steps forward.
I feel we can't draw any safe conclusions yet, in fact i think that this thread is going to be full of negativity next Sunday after the City game. The period from November 8th until March 14th, where we have only two big matches with Arsenal and Liverpool away and we face Tottenham, Southampton and almost every other midtable club home and away will show us if we're improving or not.
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Like JustaFan says I think he's been unfortunate with the amount of injuries, he's always said it would take 3 months and I think it may well be 3 months after he has his full squad to choose from before everything clicks. Probably another player or two in January as well
I have total faith. The improvement is obvious.
I've been disappointed to be honest. However, there is a clear direction. Under Moyes, I honestly had no idea what it was he was trying to do. I think Rio mentioned it in his book, one game he'd want use to make loads of passes and another he wanted us to just get it wide.
I'm optimistic we'll get there but there's still a lot of work to be done.
I'm optimistic we'll get there but there's still a lot of work to be done.
The football is very entertaining to watch but like a previous poster I would like one of rvp/falcao to start up front and one of mata/rooney in behind and not all four starting together .
We look very imbalanced when the four above start in the same team . I like the injection of pace LVG as introduced into the team but although it's exiting I would like us to control the pace of the game more .
LVG as improved a lot of the players with only maybe RVP not upto speed although sundays goal will have done him the world of good .
I want to see falcao get a decent run of games but some how can't see LVG making him no 1 striker as long as RVP is here .
So far so good considering the injuries and transitional changes .
We look very imbalanced when the four above start in the same team . I like the injection of pace LVG as introduced into the team but although it's exiting I would like us to control the pace of the game more .
LVG as improved a lot of the players with only maybe RVP not upto speed although sundays goal will have done him the world of good .
I want to see falcao get a decent run of games but some how can't see LVG making him no 1 striker as long as RVP is here .
So far so good considering the injuries and transitional changes .
Only time I ever questioned him was when we kept playing that dreaded 532 formation but he sorted that out quickly. We haven't been that great in the league but its a new team with a new manager, plus no one apart from Chelsea and S'ton are actually doing good in the league so we got very lucky in that respect.
Right direction for the club including good attacking and attractive football.
Right direction for the club including good attacking and attractive football.
What gets to me is this, and i'm sure its the same with every fan of any club in this situation.
These two posts highlight what was happened here.
Despite facts proving it wrong a slight upturn in playing style coupled with LVG being a bit more charismatic and a lot more successful in the past is giving him this aura.
Im not just trying to make another Moyes was underrated and shouldnt have gone claim, because maybe he wasnt ready for the United job yet, but it is a little annoying to see things in the light of 'everything Moyes does was wrong, and in fact anything LVG does wrong is a result of Moyes doing wrong in the previous season.
Other hypocritical notions are ' LVG took no time in shifting the deadwood' and 'Moyes inherited a title winning squad'. What was it a title winning squad or a squad full of deadwood?
LVG does look more of a leader of men I agree, but he has certainly not done well in his first 3 months and I guarantee had these results been Moyes in his first 3 months he would have been ridiculed for it. Its also worth mentioning that transfer deals have been better and how much this is down to the managers is anyones guess, theres a lot more to it than 'only getting fellaini being entirely Moyes fault' and ' LVG attracting ADM Falcao and Herrera'. Anyones United is going to look better with those players playing.
That said I dont actually think the improvements are as good as some make out, but maybe those who were harrowed by the memory of last seasons 0-3 losses to City and Liverpool cant get that out of their heads. For example the defence has regressed and seems a lot less organized, I always feel like United are going to concede in every game no matter who they are playing. The attack has improved but not to the level that the quality of players would make you think, a lot of it is bluster and the final third still seems a problem for United, however Mata and RVP dont help matters here.
There is more of a sign of a project under LVG though i'll say that, there are some signs at least that a better quality of player is coming in, but to rate LVG so far you would have to be insane to rate it as anything other than a bit of a disaster.
These two posts highlight what was happened here.
Despite facts proving it wrong a slight upturn in playing style coupled with LVG being a bit more charismatic and a lot more successful in the past is giving him this aura.
Im not just trying to make another Moyes was underrated and shouldnt have gone claim, because maybe he wasnt ready for the United job yet, but it is a little annoying to see things in the light of 'everything Moyes does was wrong, and in fact anything LVG does wrong is a result of Moyes doing wrong in the previous season.
Other hypocritical notions are ' LVG took no time in shifting the deadwood' and 'Moyes inherited a title winning squad'. What was it a title winning squad or a squad full of deadwood?
LVG does look more of a leader of men I agree, but he has certainly not done well in his first 3 months and I guarantee had these results been Moyes in his first 3 months he would have been ridiculed for it. Its also worth mentioning that transfer deals have been better and how much this is down to the managers is anyones guess, theres a lot more to it than 'only getting fellaini being entirely Moyes fault' and ' LVG attracting ADM Falcao and Herrera'. Anyones United is going to look better with those players playing.
That said I dont actually think the improvements are as good as some make out, but maybe those who were harrowed by the memory of last seasons 0-3 losses to City and Liverpool cant get that out of their heads. For example the defence has regressed and seems a lot less organized, I always feel like United are going to concede in every game no matter who they are playing. The attack has improved but not to the level that the quality of players would make you think, a lot of it is bluster and the final third still seems a problem for United, however Mata and RVP dont help matters here.
There is more of a sign of a project under LVG though i'll say that, there are some signs at least that a better quality of player is coming in, but to rate LVG so far you would have to be insane to rate it as anything other than a bit of a disaster.
The difference between Moyes and LvG is that nobody really wanted Moyes here and the 'optimism' was more so to try and keep positive because we knew back then we were stuck with him for the long haul and it was pointless being negative (I don't think anyone at that stage expected it to get so very bad that the club would actually sack him).
LvG on the other hand was a universally wanted appointment and as such the optimism this time is actually quite real.
Good point this, seems to me a reputation will take you a long way in football nowadays, regardless of what is happening in the present.
There is no point in looking at what LVG has done elsewhere, because as we've seen with Moyes Man United is unlike any other club. We are the biggest club in the world from a commercial standpoint and that workload is added on top of a managers usual workload, as we saw with the US tour. Right now, we're not where we should be given the investment over the summer.
We've had a ton of injuries and when you compare us to City and Chelsea, there's no comparison. Obviously defensively we've suffered have lost 3 first team defenders in the summer. All that experience gone. Rojo's English won't be that good just yet and he has a new partner every 5 minutes. Once we settle down defensively we'll be fine. We need a bit of luck and players to learn from their mistakes. As LVG would say, apply some intelligence on the pitch and we'll climb the table. In Jan or the summer, again we'll need to show ambition to improve key areas but there's a long way to go.
Stats can be deceiving though. It seems to me (and im sure others) that every mistake we make is being punished. Against West Brom, im sure they only had two chances and scored from both. Against Leicester, five goals from six shots or something and there were mistakes in all of them (except the penalty). Even yesterday, I can remember three clear shots from chelsea (one which was a goal which followed a superb save from DDG). At least in this games, we have been creating chances ourselves but not been clinical.
Take it back to last season I dont remember the chances or style of play being at our current level (not to say its perfect but going to OT, its much better to view than some of the dour stuff we finally started to expect and get).
Im not saying its perfect, or that everything LVG has done is perfect. (Havent been happy with his inability to sub RVP, or use of subs in the first few matches, or his stubborness to continue with 352 in the first few games)
Im not saying hes been a disaster (despite the easier start) because you can see the improvement.
Keep also in mind (when talking about defensive frailties), we havent really had much of a settled backline this season (added to the injuries Jones, smalling, Evans keeps getting + trying to throw in Blackett, McNair, Shaw and Rojo) plus losing Vidic, Evra and Rio who we had last season.
Also its possible to have a title winning squad that still has deficiencies and deadwood (eg anderson) :P
Swansea Home - massive disappointment
Sunderland Away - normally a draw there wouldn't be looked at as a terrible result
Burnley Away - given we lost there the last time we went a draw is an improvement lol
QPR Home - easiest win if the season
Leicester Away - massive dissapointment
West Ham Home - a wins a win
Everton Home - good deserved win even though we made it hard for ourselves
West Brom Away - ok we generally have a good record there, others teams do drop points there though
Chelsea Home - well deserved draw against the title favourites
Given we're not title favourites (or even second title favourites) the results though poor for Man Utd are pretty much what you would expect from a team who finished 7th last season and are in transition aiming for a 3rd/4th place finish I would say. Let's not be kidding ourselves we're not this season going to be up there with Chelsea or City so have our results kept us in touching distance of our rivals Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton and Spurs? Yes they have.
LVG has made mistakes but 3 months in I'm feeling he now knows what he needs long term and knows what he needs to do short term and given he said it would take him 3 months I'd say we're right on track.
Early days still and it could all go tits up but so far I'd give him a good solid 7/10 for where we are so far
Sunderland Away - normally a draw there wouldn't be looked at as a terrible result
Burnley Away - given we lost there the last time we went a draw is an improvement lol
QPR Home - easiest win if the season
Leicester Away - massive dissapointment
West Ham Home - a wins a win
Everton Home - good deserved win even though we made it hard for ourselves
West Brom Away - ok we generally have a good record there, others teams do drop points there though
Chelsea Home - well deserved draw against the title favourites
Given we're not title favourites (or even second title favourites) the results though poor for Man Utd are pretty much what you would expect from a team who finished 7th last season and are in transition aiming for a 3rd/4th place finish I would say. Let's not be kidding ourselves we're not this season going to be up there with Chelsea or City so have our results kept us in touching distance of our rivals Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton and Spurs? Yes they have.
LVG has made mistakes but 3 months in I'm feeling he now knows what he needs long term and knows what he needs to do short term and given he said it would take him 3 months I'd say we're right on track.
Early days still and it could all go tits up but so far I'd give him a good solid 7/10 for where we are so far
Moyes is gone-so he is irrelevant for me to grade LvG.
Van Gaal for me has done a good job so far in giving everyone a fair chance to show their stuff. I suspect he would have been settled on a starting XI and system but for the injuries. Moreover, I see progress-and a belief in the team that they can come back and get results. No-it hasn't been a one-way trajectory, but the team's play is improving. And, I like him as the public face of the club-well spoken with a little attitude.
Judging where we are in the standings after so few games reminds me of the problem when analyzing class mobility. When I was in grad school I had hardly any income-in fact my family received public assistance. Of course this was temporary-but if you looked only at my income I would look no different than people who were genuinely poor. The example underscores the danger of conducting naive statistical analyses.
Yes-we're in 8th place-but I don't think we're an 8th-place team-we're going through some growing pains but overall I'm pleased so far. I give LvG a solid B.
Van Gaal for me has done a good job so far in giving everyone a fair chance to show their stuff. I suspect he would have been settled on a starting XI and system but for the injuries. Moreover, I see progress-and a belief in the team that they can come back and get results. No-it hasn't been a one-way trajectory, but the team's play is improving. And, I like him as the public face of the club-well spoken with a little attitude.
Judging where we are in the standings after so few games reminds me of the problem when analyzing class mobility. When I was in grad school I had hardly any income-in fact my family received public assistance. Of course this was temporary-but if you looked only at my income I would look no different than people who were genuinely poor. The example underscores the danger of conducting naive statistical analyses.
Yes-we're in 8th place-but I don't think we're an 8th-place team-we're going through some growing pains but overall I'm pleased so far. I give LvG a solid B.
You had a lot of injuries last season too though.
Also I alluded to it in the first post but I think the performances last season are being judged by a select few haunting games such as the 0-3 losses to Pool and City, but not all of the games last season were poor. Swansea, Newcastle,WBA, Spurs, West Ham away and Villa home and away were all good performances easily equal to this seasons best. Whilst Burnley away at about 82 minutes when Valencia passed back to the goalie I think represented for me the worst I had ever seen United myself, ever, a kind of epitome low point the last 18 months had led to. Likewise against Leics despite some decent attacking early in the game, this was a far worse performance than anything last season.
Based on results so far, LvG's tenure has been decidedly mediocre. However, it can be pointed out that major contribution to date is precisely his reputation insofar that the board trusted him with $$$$ and top-level players such as AdM and Falcao were convinced to join.
I do believe that Moyes' lack of reputation made potential targets hesitant to join despite United's history and reputation.
I do believe that Moyes' lack of reputation made potential targets hesitant to join despite United's history and reputation.
Despite the terrible results, very optimistic for our future under LVG.
However, it must be said that the defense is absolutely shambolic. Haven't ever seen a top team being so bad at even the basics when it comes to defending. Attacking wise, we are creating a lot of chances (which was a problem last season) but not good at actually converting them. While I have my doubts that on short term our defense will improve that much, I am pretty sure on the other hand that we'll start scoring more goals soon enough. We're playing with pace and we're combining many different forms of attack on the final third (which was a problem last season).
Very confident that we'll get the third place, though unfortunately we won't fight for the title this season (not that I was expecting it, anyway).
However, it must be said that the defense is absolutely shambolic. Haven't ever seen a top team being so bad at even the basics when it comes to defending. Attacking wise, we are creating a lot of chances (which was a problem last season) but not good at actually converting them. While I have my doubts that on short term our defense will improve that much, I am pretty sure on the other hand that we'll start scoring more goals soon enough. We're playing with pace and we're combining many different forms of attack on the final third (which was a problem last season).
Very confident that we'll get the third place, though unfortunately we won't fight for the title this season (not that I was expecting it, anyway).
Leicester was a great performance until we conceded the first penalty, then it was just a defensive feck up, one after another.
The valencia back pass is a weird thing to point out given we kept the ball and he was the last man (and on top of that Anderson decided to run behind a player instead of making himself available). Strangely enough the leicester game you refer to, if Mata had done the same thing (gone backwards) instead of trying to take on the person like he did, we wouldnt have conceded that 4th goal which put us behind.
Im not saying all games last season were poor. Yes we had a good result here and there (and maybe a good performance here and there) but youre also forgetting the dour 0-0 with Arsenal (mentioning Valencia going backwards, but I remember a counter attack on the last minute which we got close to their area, then turned around - and im not saying thats Moyes fault).
Also given were naming games, the two big games you already mentioned (which it looked like we gave up before even playing), also Stoke away, Fulham at home, Everton away. CHelsea away, Sprs at home. Im sure we lost all these games.
Dont get me wrong, im not saying the results are anywhere near where it should be (were at least 8 points behind what we should have) but the performances as a whole are improving with each game.
And yes, last season we did have injuries (defensively) but when we did, we didnt have to give people debuts to fix it.
edit: @ItsEssexRob - i fcked up the quoting so just tagging you
The valencia back pass is a weird thing to point out given we kept the ball and he was the last man (and on top of that Anderson decided to run behind a player instead of making himself available). Strangely enough the leicester game you refer to, if Mata had done the same thing (gone backwards) instead of trying to take on the person like he did, we wouldnt have conceded that 4th goal which put us behind.
Im not saying all games last season were poor. Yes we had a good result here and there (and maybe a good performance here and there) but youre also forgetting the dour 0-0 with Arsenal (mentioning Valencia going backwards, but I remember a counter attack on the last minute which we got close to their area, then turned around - and im not saying thats Moyes fault).
Also given were naming games, the two big games you already mentioned (which it looked like we gave up before even playing), also Stoke away, Fulham at home, Everton away. CHelsea away, Sprs at home. Im sure we lost all these games.
Dont get me wrong, im not saying the results are anywhere near where it should be (were at least 8 points behind what we should have) but the performances as a whole are improving with each game.
And yes, last season we did have injuries (defensively) but when we did, we didnt have to give people debuts to fix it.
edit: @ItsEssexRob - i fcked up the quoting so just tagging you
The signings we made in the summer mean we have a significantly improved squad from last season, albeit perhaps lacking some familiarity with the Premiership. LVG got backed in a way Moyes and for me Fergie not got from the Glazers and it shows in the quality of the players brought in. Di Maria is one of the best players in the world, Falcao has been one of the top strikers in the world and Herrera and Shaw are fantastic young players. Add Blind and Rojo to areas of the squad which needed replenishing and the talent of the squad is there to see.
I still see a lot of posters saying the squad lacks balance but I don't see this as a big problem. The squad is varied and has plenty of different players for different positions for a team without a European competition to focus on. The manager has more than enough quality to work with and if this season does not turn out to be a success, LVG cannot say he was not backed. This is probably the best backing a manager has had in United's history.
We have had more injuries that I would have hoped for, especially early on in the season but that's not been an issue since the West Ham/Everton games and it's certainly not been an issue these last two games.
As for the performances, we look a better attacking unit but then again that's hardly unexpected with the attacking quality this side now possesses and it's difficult to ignore the away form as being a serious issue and something which we really need to improve upon. We have played WBA, Sunderland, Burnley and Leicester and not beaten any of them and have a seriously more difficult set of away games coming up. City, Arsenal, Southampton, Villa and Spurs are the next five league away games and City and Arsenal will punish us if we play the way we have been doing. The Leicester capitulation was one of the worst performances I have ever seen from United.
Next ten games will bring us to the half way point and give a good idea of how we are going. To hit the targets the board are going to want as minimum we are going to have pick up significantly more points in big games than we did last season with the results so far and these next three games are going to be big as we did not capitalise on having a decent set of early fixtures. The squad more than good enough to give us a shot at achieving that and we go into these fixtures with far fewer injuries.
My own personal optimism will pick up when we start to look more solid defensively and less of a soft touch away from home.
I still see a lot of posters saying the squad lacks balance but I don't see this as a big problem. The squad is varied and has plenty of different players for different positions for a team without a European competition to focus on. The manager has more than enough quality to work with and if this season does not turn out to be a success, LVG cannot say he was not backed. This is probably the best backing a manager has had in United's history.
We have had more injuries that I would have hoped for, especially early on in the season but that's not been an issue since the West Ham/Everton games and it's certainly not been an issue these last two games.
As for the performances, we look a better attacking unit but then again that's hardly unexpected with the attacking quality this side now possesses and it's difficult to ignore the away form as being a serious issue and something which we really need to improve upon. We have played WBA, Sunderland, Burnley and Leicester and not beaten any of them and have a seriously more difficult set of away games coming up. City, Arsenal, Southampton, Villa and Spurs are the next five league away games and City and Arsenal will punish us if we play the way we have been doing. The Leicester capitulation was one of the worst performances I have ever seen from United.
Next ten games will bring us to the half way point and give a good idea of how we are going. To hit the targets the board are going to want as minimum we are going to have pick up significantly more points in big games than we did last season with the results so far and these next three games are going to be big as we did not capitalise on having a decent set of early fixtures. The squad more than good enough to give us a shot at achieving that and we go into these fixtures with far fewer injuries.
My own personal optimism will pick up when we start to look more solid defensively and less of a soft touch away from home.
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It's hard to rate us right now. Results have been disappointing but its still very early days. Performances on the other hand have warranted a lot more points then how much we have. Not once have I felt we deserved a loss this season, or felt we were 2nd best on the day. Yesterday you could see Chelsea are a better, and more confident team overall, but I felt on the balance of chances we could have won it, despite it being a very even game overall.
We've also had a terrible run of injuries especially at the start before we made any signings, and those first 3 games is where we dropped the majority of our points and what makes it seem like we're doing so poorly. We had to start Cleverley, Fletcher, Young, Valencia as the midfield 4, and had no fullbacks so couldn't do anything other then Smalling, Jones and Blackett (or Evans in there) as a back 3. We just didn't have the options because of the injuries. That's why when judging us, I don't think you can look at those first 3 games with any meaning. They were essentially a completely different team/squad to the one we have now and a different formation. Had we got the luck (or rather, had the referee's made the correct decisions at least 60% of the time) we would have had 3 penalties in those games (we really had 5 clear cut pens not called) and would have had 5 points more at this point. Obviously We weren't very good in those first few games, but on the balance of play we should have won them with the possession and some chances, just didn't have the luck. Since the transfer window ended though, I think we have been a clearly different team. We beat QPR comfortably, were comfortable against Leicester for an hour before Clattenburg gifted them a penalty and a way back into the game (after which we collapsed of course), held on for 2 tight wins against West Ham and Everton after playing well for an hour but then sitting back for the last 30 mins because of a lack of confidence or whatever else. Then we've had this week with the west brom game, which again, we completely dominated bar the opening 10 minutes, just had 2 brain farts with Jones and Shaw which kept setting us back in that game so we had to constantly chase the game. In the end, we had about 65% possession and like 22 shots I think, but only drew.
With a few very small but key changes in our luck (like getting the late penalties we should have had in the first 3 games, giving us 5 points more ), our team and progress would be looked at a lot differently so far (that's even ignoring the Leicester game as we collapsed afterwards). It might sound like excuses or what not, but we genuinely have been better then our current position shows. The performances have been encouraging even if the results haven't been so. Eventually the luck will change if we keep dominating games like we have (most of them, not all) and we'll start picking up results consistently. We just need our strikers to get in form to actually put their chances away when they get them. We were always going to be inconsistent results wise and even during the games, going through moments of dominating games and then having small periods here and there where we look out of sorts.
You can't expect much different when we have 20 ins and outs over the summer, as well as a change in manager to someone who's teams generally do take a while to get used to his style of play. The second half of the season I think you'll see a lot more consistency from us. Looking at our starting 11 as well, the only things you can really say we could or need to improve upon is have a bigger, stronger midfielder who is more defensive minded, and Van Gaal has not exactly kept it a secret that he's going after Strootman, and then obviously a center back. Jones, Smalling, Evans and Rojo are all in the same boat. The first 3 are decent enough (evans less so), but ridiculously injury prone so they can never get a run of form going, build up a partnership and understanding at the back. If they get over that, then all the better for us, but I'm not sure that they will so we'd be best off buying one center who has a reliable injury record. Once we get that, along with a midfielder like Strootman in, I think we'll have a team who can potentially challenge for the champions league, let alone the premier league. The current team is very young eveywhere on the pitch apart from the strikers. Plenty of reasons to be optimistic about the future, and Van Gaal has us building up a top quality team so far, and with time it will only get better.
We've also had a terrible run of injuries especially at the start before we made any signings, and those first 3 games is where we dropped the majority of our points and what makes it seem like we're doing so poorly. We had to start Cleverley, Fletcher, Young, Valencia as the midfield 4, and had no fullbacks so couldn't do anything other then Smalling, Jones and Blackett (or Evans in there) as a back 3. We just didn't have the options because of the injuries. That's why when judging us, I don't think you can look at those first 3 games with any meaning. They were essentially a completely different team/squad to the one we have now and a different formation. Had we got the luck (or rather, had the referee's made the correct decisions at least 60% of the time) we would have had 3 penalties in those games (we really had 5 clear cut pens not called) and would have had 5 points more at this point. Obviously We weren't very good in those first few games, but on the balance of play we should have won them with the possession and some chances, just didn't have the luck. Since the transfer window ended though, I think we have been a clearly different team. We beat QPR comfortably, were comfortable against Leicester for an hour before Clattenburg gifted them a penalty and a way back into the game (after which we collapsed of course), held on for 2 tight wins against West Ham and Everton after playing well for an hour but then sitting back for the last 30 mins because of a lack of confidence or whatever else. Then we've had this week with the west brom game, which again, we completely dominated bar the opening 10 minutes, just had 2 brain farts with Jones and Shaw which kept setting us back in that game so we had to constantly chase the game. In the end, we had about 65% possession and like 22 shots I think, but only drew.
With a few very small but key changes in our luck (like getting the late penalties we should have had in the first 3 games, giving us 5 points more ), our team and progress would be looked at a lot differently so far (that's even ignoring the Leicester game as we collapsed afterwards). It might sound like excuses or what not, but we genuinely have been better then our current position shows. The performances have been encouraging even if the results haven't been so. Eventually the luck will change if we keep dominating games like we have (most of them, not all) and we'll start picking up results consistently. We just need our strikers to get in form to actually put their chances away when they get them. We were always going to be inconsistent results wise and even during the games, going through moments of dominating games and then having small periods here and there where we look out of sorts.
You can't expect much different when we have 20 ins and outs over the summer, as well as a change in manager to someone who's teams generally do take a while to get used to his style of play. The second half of the season I think you'll see a lot more consistency from us. Looking at our starting 11 as well, the only things you can really say we could or need to improve upon is have a bigger, stronger midfielder who is more defensive minded, and Van Gaal has not exactly kept it a secret that he's going after Strootman, and then obviously a center back. Jones, Smalling, Evans and Rojo are all in the same boat. The first 3 are decent enough (evans less so), but ridiculously injury prone so they can never get a run of form going, build up a partnership and understanding at the back. If they get over that, then all the better for us, but I'm not sure that they will so we'd be best off buying one center who has a reliable injury record. Once we get that, along with a midfielder like Strootman in, I think we'll have a team who can potentially challenge for the champions league, let alone the premier league. The current team is very young eveywhere on the pitch apart from the strikers. Plenty of reasons to be optimistic about the future, and Van Gaal has us building up a top quality team so far, and with time it will only get better.
Verdict so far: meh, still too early to say.
The good:
+ Overall, I'd say "his" signings have payed off. Di Maria and Blind have both been great so far. Rojo hasn't impressed, but that's probably because he's playing out of position. We haven't seen enough of Falcao yet to draw a conclusion on him.
+ We do play better football, overall. We're also more entertaining to watch.
+ He's completely reinvented our central midfield. They actually score and assist now!
+ Personality. He just seems like proper leader with a clear vision. He's also very entertaining in press conferences.
+ We seem to scrape in points, even on bad days. This is a very good long-term sign.
+ He's continued United's tradition of giving young players a shot.
The bad:
- Considering our opponents so far, we've taken far too few points. There's no denying that.
- While he did pretty well in the transfer market, he still failed(?) to sign a top CB, which we sorely need. We've been suffering from that ever since.
- Confidence doesn't come overnight, but at times we still look as scared as we did under Moyes.
- Our football might have improved, but it's still far away from what we expect from Manchester United. We're not nearly as cohesive as we ought to be, and we do look clueless at times going forward. It's not nearly Moyes-level bad, but I still think we play far too many pointless long-balls and crosses.
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Current conclusion:
There are more positives than negatives, but the negatives are still too big to say that Van Gaal has been a huge step in the right direction. Is he better than Moyes? Definitely. Is he good enough as of this exact moment? No.
But like I said: it's too early to draw a conclusion. I'd wait till after the next transfer window to draw a "final" conclusion. As things stand now, he mainly needs to gather more points. That's the biggest issue. We can focus on having an impeccable defense, confidence, and beautiful attacking football later. Right now, we look much better than we did under Moyes, so we can't really comlain in that department. It's the results we're lacking. And if that doesn't come before february, then I might start to think that Van Gaal isn't the right man.
The good:
+ Overall, I'd say "his" signings have payed off. Di Maria and Blind have both been great so far. Rojo hasn't impressed, but that's probably because he's playing out of position. We haven't seen enough of Falcao yet to draw a conclusion on him.
+ We do play better football, overall. We're also more entertaining to watch.
+ He's completely reinvented our central midfield. They actually score and assist now!
+ Personality. He just seems like proper leader with a clear vision. He's also very entertaining in press conferences.
+ We seem to scrape in points, even on bad days. This is a very good long-term sign.
+ He's continued United's tradition of giving young players a shot.
The bad:
- Considering our opponents so far, we've taken far too few points. There's no denying that.
- While he did pretty well in the transfer market, he still failed(?) to sign a top CB, which we sorely need. We've been suffering from that ever since.
- Confidence doesn't come overnight, but at times we still look as scared as we did under Moyes.
- Our football might have improved, but it's still far away from what we expect from Manchester United. We're not nearly as cohesive as we ought to be, and we do look clueless at times going forward. It's not nearly Moyes-level bad, but I still think we play far too many pointless long-balls and crosses.
______________________
Current conclusion:
There are more positives than negatives, but the negatives are still too big to say that Van Gaal has been a huge step in the right direction. Is he better than Moyes? Definitely. Is he good enough as of this exact moment? No.
But like I said: it's too early to draw a conclusion. I'd wait till after the next transfer window to draw a "final" conclusion. As things stand now, he mainly needs to gather more points. That's the biggest issue. We can focus on having an impeccable defense, confidence, and beautiful attacking football later. Right now, we look much better than we did under Moyes, so we can't really comlain in that department. It's the results we're lacking. And if that doesn't come before february, then I might start to think that Van Gaal isn't the right man.
It's worse than it was last year at the end of October. Remember that Moyes started failing really hard in December.
The only thing that is better than it was year ago (and by year ago I mean exactly 365 days ago) is offensive attitude which has only cosmetic value and entails terrible defence.
I didn't take transfers into consideration.
The only thing that is better than it was year ago (and by year ago I mean exactly 365 days ago) is offensive attitude which has only cosmetic value and entails terrible defence.
I didn't take transfers into consideration.
I'd be a lot happier if he was 15 years younger but you know he's building a side, only for the next guy to then come in and re-start again in his own way.
The main positive of the LVG era will be that he helped us get over SAF's departure by restoring the big time mentality. If he wins anything it will be a bonus so I feel his main objective is to restore our place as a consistently serious contender for the title.
As far as his philosophy goes I can't help but feel that, though entertaining, it's a bit 'yesterday'. SAF was prepared to move with the times and I think that current times is all about technical power teams. Will LVG be able to blend that with his total football philosophy? If he does we'll do well, but his signings to date don't necessarily indicate that.....
The main positive of the LVG era will be that he helped us get over SAF's departure by restoring the big time mentality. If he wins anything it will be a bonus so I feel his main objective is to restore our place as a consistently serious contender for the title.
As far as his philosophy goes I can't help but feel that, though entertaining, it's a bit 'yesterday'. SAF was prepared to move with the times and I think that current times is all about technical power teams. Will LVG be able to blend that with his total football philosophy? If he does we'll do well, but his signings to date don't necessarily indicate that.....
LVG has attracted top players and our football has being improving every game so i am pleased with him so far. I understand that our current point tally is not where it should be especially given the relatively easy run we started with but when you factor bedding in new players, repairing the damage to the players who where 12/13 champions (by 11 points) and adding a new "philosophy" to the equation he isn't doing to bad.
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