United need to sign some Spanish players

Ash_G said:
I don't think ita a simple as we need a technical spanish player or anything like that. We destroyed arsenal loads of time with fabregas playing. We've beaten both Chelsea and city with their respective Spanish stars. Ita not about that its the balance of the team.

In those games against arsenal where we really out did them the balance was perfect. In the midfield you had carrick holding, fletcher going box to box and ando as the attacking midfielder. All of them suited to their roles which allowed them to play to their strengths.

Yesterday we had carrick in the same role and he was good but ita the other two where the balance was wrong. For me giggs is better playing slightly deeper where he has more time to look up but most importantly you have park who can't do fletchers role and he can't provide attackingly. The dynamic was completely wrong. It didn't allow us to keep things tight and look to break them down because he doesn't have the skills to keep the ball in those areas and he's shown that all season. Attackingly he doesn't have enough about him to unlock defences which meant good moves broke down.

The up front against arsenal for example we had a mix of Rooney ronaldo and park, or nani for ronaldo after and that again was really well balanced. Park could drift in from the left and make a nuisance of himself with his movement. On the other flank you had a really good flair player who could take on his man and create for others and for himself. It complimented the midfield really well as there was enough work rate and enough quality to strike at the same time.

In contrast yest we had young who has got quality but he wants to cut inside from the left so you lose the width there which is fine if the other flank can compensate. But we didn't have that. We had clev who also wants to come inside but also doesn't really have the skills to play there, not when we're relying on a lot from that side.

And that's the problem for me, we're getting out set up wrong in a lot of games. Injuries have hurt. Fletcher and nani in for park and clev would have made a big difference for me. But I think a lot is tactics in what teams we send out and what players are asked to do.
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Excellent post.

Would also like to add that imo the kind of setup you are talking about would be a setup that excels specifically at breaking down "better" (more technically skilled, that is) sides than our own, a'la Arsenal in 09-10. That is one approach that could be followed in an attempt to beat the top Spanish sides and their kind of football that seems to be troubling us lately.

If emulating sides like Barca and Athletic and their technical "tiki taka" approach to offensive football is what we want then the set up of designated "destroyer"/"grafter" , "playmaker" and "defensive anchor" in midfield isnt what we want however. To do that we need all the players from midfield and forward to be good at one touch passing and fluid movement. And a good start would be signing some players who already possess this skillset and building on that.
 
Ash_G said:
I don't think ita a simple as we need a technical spanish player or anything like that. We destroyed arsenal loads of time with fabregas playing. We've beaten both Chelsea and city with their respective Spanish stars. Ita not about that its the balance of the team.

In those games against arsenal where we really out did them the balance was perfect. In the midfield you had carrick holding, fletcher going box to box and ando as the attacking midfielder. All of them suited to their roles which allowed them to play to their strengths.

Yesterday we had carrick in the same role and he was good but ita the other two where the balance was wrong. For me giggs is better playing slightly deeper where he has more time to look up but most importantly you have park who can't do fletchers role and he can't provide attackingly. The dynamic was completely wrong. It didn't allow us to keep things tight and look to break them down because he doesn't have the skills to keep the ball in those areas and he's shown that all season. Attackingly he doesn't have enough about him to unlock defences which meant good moves broke down.

The up front against arsenal for example we had a mix of Rooney ronaldo and park, or nani for ronaldo after and that again was really well balanced. Park could drift in from the left and make a nuisance of himself with his movement. On the other flank you had a really good flair player who could take on his man and create for others and for himself. It complimented the midfield really well as there was enough work rate and enough quality to strike at the same time.

In contrast yest we had young who has got quality but he wants to cut inside from the left so you lose the width there which is fine if the other flank can compensate. But we didn't have that. We had clev who also wants to come inside but also doesn't really have the skills to play there, not when we're relying on a lot from that side.

And that's the problem for me, we're getting out set up wrong in a lot of games. Injuries have hurt. Fletcher and nani in for park and clev would have made a big difference for me. But I think a lot is tactics in what teams we send out and what players are asked to do.
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Fabregas or Mata do not make a team. The Spanish system expects players to play 1 touch football, keep possession of the ball and attack/defend as a unit. 1 Spanish player won't be able to do it alone

What we need is a radical change in our team's core (IE CM). In that way, one hopes that the rest of the team will adapt to the system. I cant see how Fletch can get the best out of the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Martinez and Ander. He'll certainly give his 100 per cent, risking a red card in the process. However I cant see how he'll be able to disrupt their 1 touch football or pass the ball under such intense pressure.
 
Brosstan said:
If emulating sides like Barca and Athletic and their technical "tiki taka" approach to offensive football is what we want then the set up of designated "destroyer"/"grafter" , "playmaker" and "defensive anchor" in midfield isnt what we want however. To do that we need all the players from midfield and forward to be good at one touch passing and fluid movement. And a good start would be signing some players who already possess this skillset and building on that.
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Personally I love watching Barca play the game, but the tempo of their ball retention puts off a lot of United fans who prefer the quick paced approach we use. Athletic are similar to Barca in their pressing and workrate, as well as the importance placed on technical ability and off the ball movement, but they don't dally on the ball as much. I was very impressed with that. It was almost like a Barca-lite that had been sped up and the tempo raised.

I'm sure nobody on this site would be upset if we went out and signed Javi Martinez, but I think the real lesson last night was the importance of the system and structure at the club. The emergence of more technically gifted youngsters recently shows that Rene and the rest are doing something right. With the ninety minute rule being removed we should have the pick of the best youngsters about, the same way that the big Spanish clubs have. It's up to us to make sure that the players we develop are done so in the right way. That right way should incorporate, if it doesn't already, the high pressing/passing game that Athletic showed last night.
 
devilish said:
Fabregas or Mata do not make a team. The Spanish system expects players to play 1 touch football, keep possession of the ball and attack/defend as a unit. 1 Spanish player won't be able to do it alone

What we need is a radical change in our team's core (IE CM). In that way, one hopes that the rest of the team will adapt to the system. I cant see how Fletch can get the best out of the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Martinez and Ander. He'll certainly give his 100 per cent, risking a red card in the process. However I cant see how he'll be able to disrupt their 1 touch football or pass the ball under such intense pressure.
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Ita not only Spanish midfielders who can do 1 touch. The point any arsenal is that they play similarly , sure not all their players are as good but in terms of the one touch they're excellent, they're problem in the past was the defensive side of things and a lack of quality attackers.

You don't have to beat 1 touch by going like for like. Look at how inter beat barca. That was all about discipline and balance. That's been our problem particularly against barca in recent years. We've got the balance wrong and so the tactic falls apart. Both times with Hargreaves and fletcher out we've lacked that box to box destroyer and we've tried to replace them with players not suited to it. Last year we made the mistake of also playing hernadez who doesn't have the technique required to be the lead striker on a game like that.

An overhaul isn't needed, it's just two players. Had we had fletcher in for park and a proper winger for clev I think we win the game. It's not like we couldn't get the ball, we had enough we just couldn't use it. Having fletcher would mean we're much tougher to break down and having another winger, ie nani gives us the extra attacker we sorely needed.

Now with fletch out indefinitely we do need an extra player but we don't need an overhaul. I'm torn between whether we need an out and out attacking mid as well. In our usual team there's no place for one unless they can play wide but we have good wingers and tbh I prefer Rooney in the hole.

But it's not an overhaul. I think fergie though needs re-assess what strengths he sees it certain players and his own tactics/team selection. But I don't think we need a complete change.
 
Ash_G said:
Ita not only Spanish midfielders who can do 1 touch. The point any arsenal is that they play similarly , sure not all their players are as good but in terms of the one touch they're excellent, they're problem in the past was the defensive side of things and a lack of quality attackers.

You don't have to beat 1 touch by going like for like. Look at how inter beat barca. That was all about discipline and balance. That's been our problem particularly against barca in recent years. We've got the balance wrong and so the tactic falls apart. Both times with Hargreaves and fletcher out we've lacked that box to box destroyer and we've tried to replace them with players not suited to it. Last year we made the mistake of also playing hernadez who doesn't have the technique required to be the lead striker on a game like that.

An overhaul isn't needed, it's just two players. Had we had fletcher in for park and a proper winger for clev I think we win the game. It's not like we couldn't get the ball, we had enough we just couldn't use it. Having fletcher would mean we're much tougher to break down and having another winger, ie nani gives us the extra attacker we sorely needed.

Now with fletch out indefinitely we do need an extra player but we don't need an overhaul. I'm torn between whether we need an out and out attacking mid as well. In our usual team there's no place for one unless they can play wide but we have good wingers and tbh I prefer Rooney in the hole.

But it's not an overhaul. I think fergie though needs re-assess what strengths he sees it certain players and his own tactics/team selection. But I don't think we need a complete change.
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Ball possession is key here cause once they get the ball they'll knock you down and once you've got the ball they allow you too little space to act. I don't think that we need an overhaul either. What we need is two players whose capable to change the midfield core. The rest would fall in place (hopefully)
 
devilish said:
Ball possession is key here cause once they get the ball they'll knock you down and once you've got the ball they allow you too little space to act. I don't think that we need an overhaul either. What we need is two players whose capable to change the midfield core. The rest would fall in place (hopefully)
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Fair enough I think if he fletch and nani playing we would have won. Personally I think if we could play a team with carrick and fletch in the middle, Rooney just ahead flanked by nani and young. Welbeck ahead then we would look so much batter not just in Europe but in the league. That for me is a really well avalanches team, capable of a variety of style.

Regardless of if fletcher comes back we need another centre mid as our squad is short of proper central midfielders. Beyond that I don't think there's a big problem, just keeping our players fit. I suppose if berba goes we could either invest in A striker or an attacking midfielder which would give is some extra options in tight games where we want to play Rooney as the line striker.

As I said I think it's easy to get carried away but I really don't think the problems are that massive. Fergie has got it wrong this season in and it's cost is but injuries haven't helped either. I suppose you could say that maybe our squad is short of like for like replacements. In midfielder especially we have too many players who are only suited to certain games. But that team I mentioned for me could give anyone a game. Sure there are some individually more talented players then some of them but I think the balance is good enough to overcome that.
 
Ash_G said:
Fair enough I think if he fletch and nani playing we would have won. Personally I think if we could play a team with carrick and fletch in the middle, Rooney just ahead flanked by nani and young. Welbeck ahead then we would look so much batter not just in Europe but in the league. That for me is a really well avalanches team, capable of a variety of style.

Regardless of if fletcher comes back we need another centre mid as our squad is short of proper central midfielders. Beyond that I don't think there's a big problem, just keeping our players fit. I suppose if berba goes we could either invest in A striker or an attacking midfielder which would give is some extra options in tight games where we want to play Rooney as the line striker.

As I said I think it's easy to get carried away but I really don't think the problems are that massive. Fergie has got it wrong this season in and it's cost is but injuries haven't helped either. I suppose you could say that maybe our squad is short of like for like replacements. In midfielder especially we have too many players who are only suited to certain games. But that team I mentioned for me could give anyone a game. Sure there are some individually more talented players then some of them but I think the balance is good enough to overcome that.
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I dont think that the team is shite but CM had been neglected for too long. Look at it, we've got two 37yr olds, 2 injury prone players, Carrick, 1 player with a serious illness, a winger and a defender. That's not good enough.
 
devilish said:
I dont think that the team is shite but CM had been neglected for too long. Look at it, we've got two 37yr olds, 2 injury prone players, Carrick, 1 player with a serious illness, a winger and a defender. That's not good enough.
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We do need a change I agree but it doesn't have to be big. One midfielder and possibly one attacking midfielder instead of a fourth striker is all we really need. That gives us an additional player to partner carrick when we know the game will be tough, esp while fletcher is out as well as cover for carrick so we have another defensively capable midfielder.

I don't see the issue with giggs age considering how well he s playing. He's still more than good enough for any squad. Getting another midfielder would make the other options more acceptable. We really don't need major changes.

If we get one in then that gives us next season to hopefully give clev some more experience as I think he has a lot to work on. Dunno if ando will still be around, but really if we get one more proper midfielder and a bit better luck with injuries I think we're absolutely fine.
 
I am surprised people think Fletch will return and even if he did I cannot see how in he'll he will be his best again.

His game relied a lot on energy and stamina, not exactly flair.
 
KingMinger22 said:
I am surprised people think Fletch will return and even if he did I cannot see how in he'll he will be his best again.

His game relied a lot on energy and stamina, not exactly flair.
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Well he was apparently carrying the illness even during his golden years plus there was always more to his game then just energy, he's a much better midfielder then he's credited with. But regardless we should look to bring in someone else because we don't know if he will return and how fit he'll be for a season. I'd rather we have possibly too many midfielders than the current situation where we're one short.
 
Ash_G said:
We do need a change I agree but it doesn't have to be big. One midfielder and possibly one attacking midfielder instead of a fourth striker is all we really need. That gives us an additional player to partner carrick when we know the game will be tough, esp while fletcher is out as well as cover for carrick so we have another defensively capable midfielder.

I don't see the issue with giggs age considering how well he s playing. He's still more than good enough for any squad. Getting another midfielder would make the other options more acceptable. We really don't need major changes.

If we get one in then that gives us next season to hopefully give clev some more experience as I think he has a lot to work on. Dunno if ando will still be around, but really if we get one more proper midfielder and a bit better luck with injuries I think we're absolutely fine.
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We're running in circles, proposing the same thing. We both agree that we need 1-2 midfielders.

What we disagree on the wording. I think that our system needs a revamp and honestly, I cant see how much patience should we use with Ando and co. I mean its not as if we can keep on relying on Scholes and co until they become 65 yrs of age can we?
 
devilish said:
We're running in circles, proposing the same thing. We both agree that we need 1-2 midfielders.

What we disagree on the wording. I think that our system needs a revamp and honestly, I cant see how much patience should we use with Ando and co. I mean its not as if we can keep on relying on Scholes and co until they become 65 yrs of age can we?
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Yeah I guess so.

It's not really about relying on them, if they're playing well then there isn't an issue. I agree we need a change though and it should happen this year. At the moment we've allowed ourselves to get into a situation where we have a bunch of midfielders who barring carrick and fletcher, who we now know can't really be factored in long term, can't play in every game and in some cases are only going to be good in certain games.

I said in some other threads that we need to make a decision with ando and scholes for me. I think we can't buy a midfielder without removing someone and I think it's got to be one of them. If scholes wants to stay then we might have to let ando go as although ando does have time on his side, he's just to injury prone and constantly missing out on the experience he needs. Scholes though whilst he can't play every game is usually fit and in the right games able to destroy teams. I think he's more of an asset in the short term which is what we need really.

If we get another proper midfielder then the choices become good again. You'd have carrick and the new guy, with fletch if he's about, as our midfielders in their prime. Giggs and clev as two more attacking players, there's an issue with clevs fitness as well, but having another midfielder means we don't need to rely on him to be fit. Giggs is still quality for me and would get into any squad.

Then we have scholes around who can be good back up as well as great in certain games such as against smaller teams that stand off. Hopefully he can give us another season in which clev can learn a lot more and be ready to be a big part after. Pogba will get games.

That's really all we need for me, that one guy who can play every week and can give us backup so we don't have to play carrick every game. In terms of the formation I still think the 4231 or whatever you want to call it is perfect for us. We're not got to see it enough due to injuries with our first team and fergie has made mistakes in the players he's brought in at times this season and the job he's asked them to do, but that first team I mentioned earlier would be really good for me.
 
I'd rather adopt the Spanish approach to defending and wining back the ball than the way they attack. Personally I see no reason when we can't keep our wing, counter attacking style but press and defend the way a Barca does. We can also learn to be more careful with our possession. For me we give the ball away to damn easily as a team.
 
I think the way the spanish teams defend (Barca,Bilbao) is key to how they play offensively and vice-versa Chief.
For instance, I cannot see this United team keep the same wing play and apply that collective pressure at the same time consistently.
 
kouroux said:
I think the way the spanish teams defend (Barca,Bilbao) is key to how they play offensively and vice-versa Chief.
For instance, I cannot see this United team keep the same wing play and apply that collective pressure at the same time consistently.
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Most probably

For me though why I'm convinced it can possibly be done is because the great Milan side of the late 80's and early 90's played Barca's same pressing brand of football in a 4-4-2 type system. Yet when they came up against Barca's brand of it they decimated it 4-0 even without their best 11 available. Yet that Milan side liked its width.

For me it's all about your tactical set up when you lose the ball. United's current weakness vs pressing sides is we play too far apart. If we compress the space from back to front of our team, and side to side when we lose it we'd be able to operate with our same wide man based play while pressing teams for 90 minutes.

As a rule all pressing sides have a distance of about 20 yards between their back line and their attack. Also their player when with the ball always has a team mate with in 10 yards of him as a passing option. Because they are determined to not lose possession easily. Yet when they lose it they ahve one layer to attc the opnet with the ball while the others mark out any passing option he may have, forcing him either into a square pass, a back pass or an unforced error. Which can be used to punish his team in a quick transition counter attack. Similar to what Bilbao was using to great effect against us.

Honestly since 2003 we've become a team very careless with our possession. Which has made us change from the aggressive pressing side we were in Ke'ane's best years to the Seria A like counter attacking United we are now. That loves to sit back and hit with fast breaks. A system that worked best when had a forward like of that caliber of Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney, but a system that concedes too much space and time on the ball to opponents in midfield.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Most probably

For me though why I'm convinced it can possibly be done is because the great Milan side of the late 80's and early 90's played Barca's same pressing brand of football in a 4-4-2type system. Yet when they came up against Barca's brand of it they decimated it 4-0 even without their best 11 available. Yet that Milan side liked its width.

For me it's all about your tactical set up when you lose the ball. United's current weakness vs pressing sides is we play too far apart. If we compress the space from back to front of our team, we'd be able to operate with our same wide man based play while pressing teams for 90 minutes.

As a rule all pressing sides have a distance of about 20 yards between their back line and their attack. Also their player when with the ball always has a team mate with in 10 yards of him as passing option. Because they are determined to not lose possession easily

Honestly since 2003 we've become a team very careless with our possession. Which has made us change from the aggressive pressing side we were in Ke'ane's best years to the Seria A like counter attacking United we are now. That loves to sit back and hit with fast breaks. A system that worked best when had a forward like of that caliber of Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney, but a system that concedes too much space and time on the ball to opponents in midfield.
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Don't forget we had the defence to play that counter attacking football. Rio and Evra had arguably one of their best season ever, we had Brown on the right side and Vidic partnering Rio.

Rio is getting a old, Evra's defending has become shitter, Vidic is out for the season and the right back positions is still there for the taking...
 
Godfather said:
Don't forget we had the defence to play that counter attacking football. Rio and Evra had arguably one of their best season ever, we had Brown on the right side and Vidic partnering Rio.

Rio is getting a old, Evra's defending has become shitter, Vidic is out for the season and the right back positions is still there for the taking...
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Good point. Our defensive unit isn't as strong both at the back and in midfield to play the stand off, counter attacking style we use.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Good point. Our defensive unit isn't as strong both at the back and in midfield to play the stand off, counter attacking style we use.
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I think that's been one of the problems this season, we've ha injuries and fergie has tried to play the same systems but brought in players not suited to them. In the past we've had problems with the 433 when we've tried certain players. I remember one game where we tried ando scholes and Gibson and it was a disaster. We just seem to be getting the balance wrong in there.

First game against athletic and I still can't understand the way we set up. The team on paper was fine but the way we set up was terrible. Why was jones being allowed to push on so much? It made no sense and to me it looked like a tactical choice which is even more insane. In the second team I've said above how the balance was completely wrong again. Some injuries have stopped us from playing that time style to some extent but there are still options, better options then some of the ones we've been picking in my opinion and I think that's really cost us in the cups this season.
 
Ash_G said:
I think that's been one of the problems this season, we've ha injuries and fergie has tried to play the same systems but brought in players not suited to them. In the past we've had problems with the 433 when we've tried certain players. I remember one game where we tried ando scholes and Gibson and it was a disaster. We just seem to be getting the balance wrong in there.

First game against athletic and I still can't understand the way we set up. The team on paper was fine but the way we set up was terrible. Why was jones being allowed to push on so much? It made no sense and to me it looked like a tactical choice which is even more insane. In the second team I've said above how the balance was completely wrong again. Some injuries have stopped us from playing that time style to some extent but there are still options, better options then some of the ones we've been picking in my opinion and I think that's really cost us in the cups this season.
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Our european set up this season has been dumb really.

1. We've played 4-4-2 with premiership speed in Europe. Resulting in being to open and easy to catch on the break.

3. Vs Bilbao and Ajax at home we started defender and a winger against 3 pressing natural center midfielders.

4. Away in Bilbao we literaly lined up a 4-1-4-1. Literally putting Carrick in a position to be over worked and over run by Bilbao's central 3.


I hope it was just an off year for us tactically, in Europe.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Our european set up this season has been dumb really.

1. We've played 4-4-2 with premiership speed in Europe. Resulting in being to open and easy to catch on the break.

3. Vs Bilbao and Ajax at home we started defender and a winger against 3 pressing natural center midfielders.

4. Away in Bilbao we literaly lined up a 4-1-4-1. Literally putting Carrick in a position to be over worked and over run by Bilbao's central 3.


I hope it was just an off year for us tactically, in Europe.
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I think it was more of an off year. I think fergie experimented a bit too much. As I said I reckon a team of carrick and fletcher holding, Rooney flanked by nani and young with welbeck up top would be really good. With fetcher out I'm hoping we sign someone else but that team for me would be excellent. I think we need to be a bit smarter on how we use the squad players though and what roles we give them. Too often I think we've tried to play the same systems but with players not suited to it at all.
 
Ash_G said:
I think it was more of an off year. I think fergie experimented a bit too much. As I said I reckon a team of carrick and fletcher holding, Rooney flanked by nani and young with welbeck up top would be really good. With fetcher out I'm hoping we sign someone else but that team for me would be excellent. I think we need to be a bit smarter on how we use the squad players though and what roles we give them. Too often I think we've tried to play the same systems but with players not suited to it at all.
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He experimented too much because he was forced to imo, and all because he didn't strengthen sufficiently in the summer. This poor European campaign can be directly attributed to over-excessive mixing and matching in what we wrongly adjudged to be an easy group against average teams.

On top of that we have only had one defensive minded midfielder, who cannot possibly play every game, so when we rest him we have no other who can cover anywhere near as effectively, and the whole team most especially the defence, suffers as a result.

I agree about the systems to a point, but when you are regularly making so many changes to personnel, it is not really advisable to change to unfamiliar formations at the same time. I don't like the 4-4-2 in Europe, and the only reason we play it imo, is because with our current personnel playing 3 in the middle doesn't give us enough to justify losing the attacking threat an extra striker poses.

Can we do better with what we have? Of course, but the fact is injury, age and lack of defensive CM options means we cannot play the same players as often as we would like to get some proper form. We now need to look to sign some better all round players to give us much better options and added versatility within different formations.
 
Don't think we definitely need to sign Spanish players.. We need to sign some good players in positions we need most.

Whether they're German (Gotze), Argentinan (Messi), Croatian (Modric), or Portuguese (Ronaldo) is besides the point.

I'm not saying we're going to sign these players by the way - just illustrating that who cares where they come from as long as they're good and we need them.
 
They're definitely the most naturally gifted in keeping possession but Swansea and Rodgers have shown most players can adapt to play in such a fashion. If lower league players have developed the ability to play like that through coaching then you'd think we could get our players to develop in that regard.

It's not just individual technical talent that's the problem though it's our whole tactical set up. You have to work hard as a team to pull it off from defending together through to always making the pass available.
 
That or he brought in the lower league talent that are capable of that kind of football.
 
Snow said:
That or he brought in the lower league talent that are capable of that kind of football.
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A bit of both most likely, he was on Goals on Sunday this morning stating his belief any English player can play possession football as much as any Spanish player can they just need the confidence and reassurance. He insinuated that he had to bring the players on board to his ideas as they'd been trained from an early age to play the English 'hoof it when in danger' way.
 
I still can't fathom why we didn't play the one player who would have kept possession under those tight situations in either fixture.
 
Smores said:
A bit of both most likely, he was on Goals on Sunday this morning stating his belief any English player can play possession football as much as any Spanish player can they just need the confidence and reassurance. He insinuated that he had to bring the players on board to his ideas as they'd been trained from an early age to play the English 'hoof it when in danger' way.
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Did Brendan neglect to mention Swansea have been playing that kind of football from Martinez' day?
 
acnumber9 said:
Did Brendan neglect to mention Swansea have been playing that kind of football from Martinez' day?
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He did fail to mention that but I wouldn't say he was self-boasting he comes across as quite humble. To be honest I had no idea about Martinez influence as I hadn't seen much of them prior to this season but they brought that up on sunday supplement.

Were they as organised? I know Martinez likes to play football properly but his Wigan team are hardly tactically impressive like Swansea.
 
Smores said:
He did fail to mention that but I wouldn't say he was self-boasting he comes across as quite humble. To be honest I had no idea about Martinez influence as I hadn't seen much of them prior to this season but they brought that up on sunday supplement.

Were they as organised? I know Martinez likes to play football properly but his Wigan team are hardly tactically impressive like Swansea.
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Swansea's style has developed across three different managers. Rodgers has done very well but he takes a little too much credit for their passing style.
 
acnumber9 said:
Swansea's style has developed across three different managers. Rodgers has done very well but he takes a little too much credit for their passing style.
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Really? Can you have a style that continues through different managers? I wouldn't have thought so myself, each manager does things differently. Take Spurs, they have always been a passing, attacking team, but i think you would have to give Redknapp all the credit for making them highly effective while maintaining their principles.

I don't see how it can be any different with Rodgers. Regardless of Swansea maintaining a principle of passing football, Rodgers has clearly took them to a completely different level than they were at before. To deny him credit for that, would be similar to denying Redknapp credit for his success with Spurs, because Jol employed similar principles a few years before him.

A principle is just that, it is how the principle is applied that determines how effective it will be. Rodgers has clearly motivated and instilled a belief in the players beyond anything that went before, and that is being proven in their results and performances. Management is all about improvement, improving confidence, performances and most importantly results. That is how you take take your team to the next level. Rodgers has done that and then some,and it seems to me that Swansea are gaining even more confidence and belief from their results this season and are getting even better.
 
apotheosis said:
Really? Can you have a style that continues through different managers? I wouldn't have thought so myself, each manager does things differently. Take Spurs, they have always been a passing, attacking team, but i think you would have to give Redknapp all the credit for making them highly effective while maintaining their principles.

I don't see how it can be any different with Rodgers. Regardless of Swansea maintaining a principle of passing football, Rodgers has clearly took them to a completely different level than they were at before. To deny him credit for that, would be similar to denying Redknapp credit for his success with Spurs, because Jol employed similar principles a few years before him.

A principle is just that, it is how the principle is applied that determines how effective it will be. Rodgers has clearly motivated and instilled a belief in the players beyond anything that went before, and that is being proven in their results and performances. Management is all about improvement, improving confidence, performances and most importantly results. That is how you take take your team to the next level. Rodgers has done that and then some,and it seems to me that Swansea are gaining even more confidence and belief from their results this season and are getting even better.
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Well yes, you can. It won't be exactly the same but the ethos at Swansea for several years has been to build from the back and keep possession. To hear Rodgers talk it's as if he transformed them from playing Stoke. He hasn't.

I'm not saying he's not done a good job. He has. What he hasn't done is revolutionised the way Swansea played their football.
 
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