You can compare a player with his peers, but for example none of the players you mentioned are even close to Nesta and Maldini, does that mean that they are not top players in 2015? Because when you rate a young player, you rate him in the context of his generation not in the context of "the hall of fame".
United have made an offer for Daniele Rugani
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You can compare a player with his peers, but for example none of the players you mentioned are even close to Nesta and Maldini, does that mean that they are not top players in 2015? Because when you rate a young player, you rate him in the context of his generation not in the context of "the hall of fame".
1. Let's not discuss Bonucci anymore mate. That's a tangential argument for a Rugani thread, because what Bonucci does, or did in the past does not have a major bearing on Rugani's performances, apart from lending some minor anecdotal evidence based on the common denominator of their nationality.
2. That's the case with every talented player. You must believe in their potential, and allow them to develop. If everyone kept thinking about how these players might fail, how are they supposed to grow up? Cristiano Ronaldo could have fizzled, Wayne Rooney could have fizzled, De Gea could have fizzled. You will have your share of players that don't live up to their potential, but that should dissuade you from signing talent with the hope of molding said talent because there will also be players that become the best around. As a United fan, seeing a youngster develop, and becoming one of the best in the world is the most gratifying experience, almost on par with winning titles.
Also, Nesta didn't develop later. He was a young sensation at Lazio having played almost 50 games by age 20, he was easily the most talented young defender in Serie A in the mid to late '90s, and was capped for Italy in 1996 at age 20, and become a national team regular by age 21-22. With Laporte and Rugani they will have bumps on the way no doubt. But that's part of the learning curve every young player goes through. Even a 24 year old Rio Ferdinand made a mistake per match, but we made him the most expensive defender in the world. I realize that the complexion f that United team was different, but in defensive positions, it's a good thing is that we have Smalling who can cover for mistakes with his athleticism. So even if a Rugani or Laporte struggle initially if we sign them (and they will no doubt), Smalling can limit the damage done.
3. Really believe that the point about learning is overplayed at times to be honest. Cleverley learnt from Scholes, Eagles learnt from Giggs; while Vidić and Evra and Stam learnt from no one of great significance. If a player has requisite amounts of raw talent, he doesn't need to rely upon learning to a large degree, and Rugani is currently learning from Chiellini at Juventus for what it's worth, and Chiellini believes that he is arguably the best defender Italy has produced in a while too. Rugani can also learn from Smalling, who is no longer a youngster, and had grown in stature under Van Gaal. Juventus are mentalists for not playing Rugani, even their own supporters say that, and they fear that he will leave if this keeps up, something that's mirrored in their current league position.
We won't have to forget about winning the Champions League. Winning the Champions League is going to be a process, any realistic supporter knows we can't win it or the next 2-3 years, barring some minor miracle. Madrid, Bayern and Barcelona are too far away, and they are strengthening continuously, while we have to play catch up. United is a young team at its core. Rooney will likely leave by the time we are genuine European contenders, while the likes of Martial and Shaw will be looking ahead to their best playing days. We are at the start of a growth curve, so intuitively it makes sense to not just sign experienced players (who will be close to declining stage by the time Martial and Shaw fully grow up, thus necessitating replacement), but also players who can grow up with the young core when they are reaching their peak performance years. Rugani would represent the latter kind, just as Boateng did for Bayern Munich to cite one example when they bought him off City where he played just 16 league matches, and in just 2 seasons he became one of he best around.
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How good is he on the ball? It also sounds like he's a very intelligent defender, not receiving a single booking playing at a lower placed team like Empoli for the whole season is mighty impressive and implies one who relies heavily (and well) on his ability to read and intercept play- but how is he physically and in the air?
fair point. but the fact remains that bonucci compared his peers is till not as good as you are making him out to be. the comparison with nesta is way to show how far he is from being a great player.
Though i largely agree with the point you are trying to make i think we have a young team in terms of age and in terms of experience of playing in the first XI (and of course CL experience). adding rugani to it is not going to do a world of good. instead we should be looking at an experienced player that will give us stability.
i also dont think that the learning bit is overplayed. im talking about quality young players learning from great players. evra was 25 stam was 28 and vidic was 26. these werent young players.
rugani is only 21. theres no way we should be buying him as a starting 11 player.
I really like what I've seen of him. Hope the link is true and I believe it probably is tbh.
Who are these experienced players that will offer us a lot of stability? We tried to sign Ramos last season, Van Gaal wasn't interested in Otamendi, Hummels will not leave Dortmund and he regularly makes mistakes, Godin will not leave Atletico, Höwedes is inconsistent for Schalke, Abdennour just signed for Valencia and doesn't have a lot of European experience; the pickings are very very slim. Adding Rugani will do us a lot of good, our most reliable centerback options are Smalling, and Blind. Jones gets injured time and again, Rojo seems more setted at leftback like for the national team even though he was a centerback at Sporting, McNair is developing but Rugani is much superior. Even if we sign an experienced player, Rugani can be the 3rd option who can be subbed in like Varane was for Real Madrid, and Blind can go back to being a versatile chess piece.
And I wasn't talking about Evra, Vidić and Stam when we signed them. Vidić was at Red Star, Evra was at Nice, Stam at Zwolle at Rugani's age and they all became world class players without guidance from Ferdinand and the likes. None of them needed mentors. As long as Rugani listens to Van Gaal, ad learns from the likes of Smalling, he will be just fine. We won't buy him as a starting XI player. We will buy him as one of the Top 3 young central defenders around, someone who can become a very important player for the club. If he forces himself into the starting lineup by impressing Van Gaal in training, then brilliant, we can build on that. We placed our faith in Martial, we placed our faith in De Gea (much more difficult that being a centerback because the focus is only on one person), and have been rewarded. Maybe Rugani makes a similar impact, who knows, but sometimes you need to have faith in a player, especially one with immense potential instead of being totally risk averse and missing out on a top talent, only to later turn around and say we should have bought him when the player performs for another club.
This is where you're going wrong. He doesn't have to be a starting 11 player immediately.
Building teams means planning for the future, not just one or two seasons, and developing and watching the best young players is in Manchester United's DNA, for most of us anyway.
But thats exactly what im trying to say. If we do buy him it should not be as a first XI defender initially at least. He should learn his trade first. Even evra and vidic struggled initially despite being 26. A 21 yr old defender can have a torrid time in this league.
Im not a scout so i do not knw which defenders are great and which ones van gaal would like. From what ive seen i think Garay, Mussacchio (although hes been injured a while),Koulibaly, Bigas, maybe even Shawcross, are some good experienced defenders with different skill sets. They might not be big names but imo can add stability. Of course i would prefer if we prize away Abdennour which would be the best choice out of all below-the-top level defenders.
my point is the same as before - we have to buy an established CB and let the younger players start 15 games a season and bring them up to first XI standards slowly. as you correctly gave the example of varane, thats the same principle im applying here.
When it comes to 21 year old centrebacks I'd sooner have stones pl proven helps with English quotas but would probably cost a bomb.
Laporte is 21 as well and proven in the best league in the world (imo)
Marquinhos is 21 as is Ginter both of who can provide a good option at right back as well.
Rugani is undoubtedly talented but if money is not a major issue he would be behind the other four on my wish list
Laporte is 21 as well and proven in the best league in the world (imo)
Marquinhos is 21 as is Ginter both of who can provide a good option at right back as well.
Rugani is undoubtedly talented but if money is not a major issue he would be behind the other four on my wish list
And equally high potential on FM. Sign him up.
Bit strange if true, Juve 4th choice centre back and has only played 2 min this season, saying that he was quality for Empoli when ever I saw him,
Allegri already made 1 howler in hardly ever playing Coman befor letting him go to Bayern Munich on loan where he has been top class, can't see Juve fans being happy if he does the same to Rugani
Allegri already made 1 howler in hardly ever playing Coman befor letting him go to Bayern Munich on loan where he has been top class, can't see Juve fans being happy if he does the same to Rugani
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If he's potentially world class the club will look at him, and will look at other players in different positions we may be fully stocked in too.
Smalling has always been a better defender than Jones.
If we get Stones or Laporte than Jones career at United is sealed. No club would spend 30-40m on a defender to make him sit on the bench to watch Jones heading the pitch. Rugani on the other hand would cost us less, he would give Jones a run for his money without ruining any possible chances for the English defender of ever winning a first team place
If anything martial and alli has taught us, it's to play the player based on his talent and form rather than age and experience. If he is good enough who cares about his age?
Would be interesting to have a poll on this. Stones any day for me.
Stones is certainly the one I'd back to become a top class CB. That doesn't necessarily mean he's better right now though.
Plenty of examples for both arguments I would say. Eg. Smalling was slowly ushered into the first XI.
IMO ideally young players shouldn't be playing week in and week out. They need to be managed in a way that they don't burn out at an early age.
Not necessarily, just in my opinion. I'd much rather have him than Jones in our team.
Can someone who has watched him a significant amount comment on his physical traits i.e his ability to play in a high line against powerful/aggressive runners?
LvG has been largely on point with his transfers, that's good enough for me.
That is preferable if the player is a 17 or 18 year old who hasn't played professionally before. This guy is a 21 year old who has played 80 games for empoli.
No doubt..but there's a difference between the rigours of serie A and B and premier league and CL. Besides I wouldn't play a 21yr old centrally in the CL- neither CB nor CM (if there was a choice). Yes ability matters but at that age one makes more mistakes than a first class experienced player inspite of ones ability. That's just how it goes. Either way there's no end to this argument. Its about opinions. I have mine and you have yours. Don't think he will end up here anyway.
Varane starts at CB for Real at 19, just putting it out here.
Completely disagree with this that. Should martial start only 15-18 games this season? Should Rooney/Ronaldo/Fabregas have done so when they were kids? Special talents are always at a level in their teens that other players are much further in their careers. Martial at 19 is playing better than many 26 year olds would in our team or ones that we could have signed.
In the current scenario we can't afford it can we? But even a player like ronaldo started 15 games in his first season not 30 and then 25 the season after and 25 again the season after before he started playing 30+ games a season. Same for Rooney or Pogba. And look at Rooney now, he's started showing sign of burn out since his late 20s. I believe in giving young players a chance but overplaying them doesn't make sense. It costs both the player and the team ( in terms of mistakes). Ideally martial shouldn't be playing every game.
Since this is the rugani thread..as you can see he can't get a game at juve at the moment but some are talking about buying him for a starting spot. Clearly juve are also following the same philosophy of giving him time at the highest level.
Jones definitely gets more criticism then he deserves but this hasn't been true for the last two seasons.
Stones is miles ahead of Jones. Far better footballer.
As someone said, Varane, Zouma and all played in their teens at the highest level. Ferdinand was a starter for England by 21. Mistakes are common especially at CB. Even the more experienced ones make them. Not playing a highly rated 21 year old on the off chance he may make a mistake is a very cowardly stance which I'm sure LvG won't take.
Whether he will be at United or not is an entirely different debate. He is a highly rated CB apparently and is getting very less chances at juve even though they have hardly been robust this season. There's a possibility that he may look to leave them for playing time. But I don't expect juve to let him go easily.
This. You guys should be going all out for Stones - not Rugani. Stones and Smalling together
Ronaldo was a complete novice when he came to us though. The standard he had played at was Sporting. This chap seems to be much more proven. Haven't a clue whether he's in the "special" bracket of young players but I'm just arguing on the premise that he is. Rooney isn't the exception either in terms of starting a fair deal of games as a teenager. It's usually how it is. You can't hold back players of a certain standard despite their age. Every special young player does it. Fabregas did it. Martial will do it. Gotze did it. Pogba did it at Juve (?). Giggs did it before. Not to mention Rooney and Ronaldo of course. Ronaldo playing 25 in his second season is pretty much a regular starter at 19. All these players were regular starters before they turned 21 playing a vital role in week in week out for their clubs.
Having disagreed with that point of yours, that special young players should be used sparingly and someone else should be first choice, I don't actually disagree with you regarding the choice of centre back for us. Ideally we should be getting in someone experienced or in his prime/approaching his prime to play alongside Smalling. For example, the kind of player City signed in Otamendi. However, if we go for this kid, and he's truly a special talent, or we go for Stones, who is supposedly a special talent too, it doesn't make sense to have him as backup. Players like that, including Martial, you want to give them a big role so that by the time they're 23 they can be close to being the complete package. And there's no guarantee btw, that the experience chap will actually perform better than the 21 year old.
So, fans on this forum are now giving the thumbs up based on Football Manager stats and simulations?
The mind boggles.
The mind boggles.
Sky Sports use FM as well, it's researched extensively by real life scouts. Some clubs have admitted to using their database to look for potential players. It's no more laughable than people watching a four minute YouTube clip of him then claim to be an expert.So, fans on this forum are now giving the thumbs up based on Football Manager stats and simulations?
The mind boggles.
Sorry, I'm not sure which website you thought you were visiting and what level of insight you were hoping for, but this is Redcafe.
So, fans on this forum are now giving the thumbs up based on Football Manager stats and simulations?
The mind boggles.
I think some posters think it's funny, they must be a laugh a minute on a night out, but others are genuine loons who think it's real.