It's amazing how many people do think it was a Conservative government though. When I pointed out on here that it was in fact a coalition someone promptly disagreed and said the government was Conservative. I gave in, there's not much else you can say.
UK General Election 2015 | Conservatives win with an overall majority
- Thread starter langster
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It's amazing how many people do think it was a Conservative government though. When I pointed out on here that it was in fact a coalition someone promptly disagreed and said the government was Conservative. I gave in, there's not much else you can say.
I think I've seen that in the 40s recently. I'm one of the Lib Dem ones.
In the event that i choose to spoil my ballot, i am deciding upon five policies or pithy political slogans to write in each box.
During the past 20-25 years both the Tories and Labour have been responsible for significant wrongs, decisions which contine to be felt today, however the Conservatives were never on Brand's radar to begin wth so what is their relevance in this case?
During the past 20-25 years both the Tories and Labour have been responsible for significant wrongs, decisions which contine to be felt today, however the Conservatives were never on Brand's radar to begin wth so what is their relevance in this case?
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Looks like Clegg might be saved by tactical Tories in Sheffield - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...tical-votes-to-save-nick-clegg-in-hallam-poll
Surely they wouldn't be able to continue with him as leader, once any remaining doubt nationwide that he's a rentboy to the Tories has been cast aside?
I think that if they wanted to be in government alongside Labour, Labour would probably demand he be removed as leader as they'll still be pissed that he did the same of Brown in 2010. If it's with Tories then I imagine he'll stay on. If they went into opposition there'd probably be a bit of jockeying for power between him and Farron.
Also, from Cameron's latest campaign event:
Seems to be confusing some of the things that happened in his government with things that happened under Labour in his new found pumped-up rage.
Indy all but endorses a re-run of the Con-Lib coalition - http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/in-defence-of-liberal-democracy-10224221.html
It shall not get my money for a good while
It shall not get my money for a good while
I'm finding it very difficult to motivate myself for this election. It's all just one big mess and has led me to believe that our FPtP system is immensely undemocratic.
If you were trying to design a system to give a kind of randomness of power in what is a technically democratic system with the intention to confuse and frustrate, this would be it.
If you were trying to design a system to give a kind of randomness of power in what is a technically democratic system with the intention to confuse and frustrate, this would be it.
It really is. I'd struggle to ever align with either of the two big parties as well when it's clear that they could probably change it if they want to, but they don't because they know it benefits them immensely and gives them more seats.
The standard defence seems to be that we rejected AV a few years back, ignoring the fact that AV is only one of many possible systems, and isn't a PR one either.
One of the main reasons FPtP was maintained by the electorate in the referendum was because British people did not like the idea of coalition. But seeing as though we seem to be moving in the direction of coalition politics even with FPtP, it raises an interestingly possibility of the debate being reopened, only with PR coming into the mix.
Appalling record. There can't be many constituencies where that (voting against same sex marriage) is seen positively?
That's the problem, it was implemented long before the current multi-party system was in existence. It's no longer fit for purpose. It'll take one of the main two parties being existentially threatened to abandon it though.
The Indy is shit with minimal readership anyway. Doubt anyone buying that crap would vote Tory anyhoo.Indy all but endorses a re-run of the Con-Lib coalition - http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/in-defence-of-liberal-democracy-10224221.html
It shall not get my money for a good while
Are people here really endorsing spoiling a ballot paper?
Do you know what happens when you 'spoil' a ballot paper?
Nothing. Zip.
Some 65 year old pensioner decides that you were probably too stupid to understand how to fill it in properly (as happens all the time). And casts the paper aside within seconds.
Nobody reads it, nobody thinks 'ooh who's this person with their string political views'. It gets ignored.
Also, it doesn't make you look less lazy, if you feel the current political class doesnt represent your views to the extent that you want to spoil a ballot it only says 2 things about you:
1: you're to lazy to run for candidacy yourself.
2: you are in a significant minority, and either haven't taken the time to understand where most political parties stand or your views are so extreme that is probably best for everyone that number 1 is true
Do you know what happens when you 'spoil' a ballot paper?
Nothing. Zip.
Some 65 year old pensioner decides that you were probably too stupid to understand how to fill it in properly (as happens all the time). And casts the paper aside within seconds.
Nobody reads it, nobody thinks 'ooh who's this person with their string political views'. It gets ignored.
Also, it doesn't make you look less lazy, if you feel the current political class doesnt represent your views to the extent that you want to spoil a ballot it only says 2 things about you:
1: you're to lazy to run for candidacy yourself.
2: you are in a significant minority, and either haven't taken the time to understand where most political parties stand or your views are so extreme that is probably best for everyone that number 1 is true
Oh feck of, standing as an independent is the biggest waste of time in the world.
I'm assuming the Greens are the closest party to your worldview, or maybe one of the Socialist/ Trade Union parties? Why not vote for them/ whoever is at least on your side of the political spectrum? Or the Lib Dems to help them work towards electoral reform? It's rare to impossible that a party's going to exactly match your ideas for how the country should be run, and if you think that's a terrible injustice then you have to run yourself.
As far as I'm concerned spoiling is pointless because it tells the parties nothing about the reason why you're unhappy. It could just as easily represent a far right viewpoint as a far left. It could mean you hate your local candidate, or you hate the party leader.
Besides, why exactly would Labour or the Tories worry about people who spoil votes when there's no way of them knowing who those vote spoilers are and whether they would ever vote for their party in any case, when they could focus on the people that do actually vote and whose votes contribute to the outcome?
Besides, why exactly would Labour or the Tories worry about people who spoil votes when there's no way of them knowing who those vote spoilers are and whether they would ever vote for their party in any case, when they could focus on the people that do actually vote and whose votes contribute to the outcome?
Was it so for Richard Taylor and the Wyre Forest? Was he nbot what he did good for politics?
People will bemoan their choices and cry foul of the the system, yet how many of these disaffected individuals have ever been active contributors in the process? A member of a party, stood as a councillor, volunteered for a pressure group e.t.c.
For my part i think that there are serious concerns about both the Greens and UKIP, but the possibility which they represent, that votes can no longer be viewed with complacence, is what might help to bring about the very change some desire
What are elections if not a demonstration of one's support for democracy through political choices? If you are presented with a ballot paper upon which are written but five name, and all are quite unsuitable, what alternative course of action is there?
Standing as an independent candidate can potentially be useful, but to be fair to Silva, it's not something you can just do in your spare time because you don't like politics. If you do it, then you've got to give it a lot of dedication and effort, knowing there's a good chance it'll be all for nothing if you live in a safe seat.
It's all well and good telling someone to stand as a candidate, but if they have their own career, family or job, then it's not something that can just be done on a whim. The majority of people wouldn't have the time to do it, plus getting a deposit costs money.
It's all well and good telling someone to stand as a candidate, but if they have their own career, family or job, then it's not something that can just be done on a whim. The majority of people wouldn't have the time to do it, plus getting a deposit costs money.
Run yourself, apparently. If you don't you're just a lazy git.
I'm not sure what your point is; in most constituencies the effect of voting for any party has no effect whatsoever on anything. Nothing. Zip. Certainly in my constituency a vote for Labour, Green, Lib Dems or UKIP is a wasted vote. Hell even a vote for the Conservatives is a wasted vote unless the difference between an 18000 majority and an 18001 majority makes you feel part of the decision.
Spoiling your ballot is the same as voting for a small party that best represents your views but has no chance of winning a seat in your constituency. It is a recorded statistic that if high enough may have an effect on how politicians act in the future.
If 3 million people vote for the Green party, even if they get no seats, you can bet that the main parties will be looking at the policies that have seduced those 3 million people in order to convert them in the future. See UKIP and Euro-skepticism within the Tory party as an example. Likewise if 3 million or more voters spoilt their ballot you could bet that the parties would be looking at why such a ridiculously high proportion were disenfranchised and would actively try to target that voter going forward. They'd talk to the electorate, find out the typical "ballot spoiler" and potentially try to change their policy to suit.
There are a significant portion of the population that realise that almost every vote in this Country is completely pointless. They want to be involved but realise that firstly: the main parties are too similar to care whether the Turd Sandwich or the Giant Douche come out on top; and secondly even if they did the voting system means their vote is almost always irrelevant to even the seat, let alone the result.
Funny how the turnout for the Scottish referendum was 85%, whereas the turnout to the last general election was 65%. If you could the 85-100% category as people who are completely uninterested and wouldn't vote regardless, the 20% difference alone still amounts to over 9 million people that would probably vote if they felt it'd make any difference.
If enough people spoilt their ballots the main parties would actively find out why they did so because it's in their best interests to try and woo them going forward. If there's 3 million people who want to vote but are disenfranchised enough to spoil, that could be the difference between a Tory or Labour Government in the 2020 election.
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I attempted that several years ago (albeit for local elections), alas the goodship Nick never quite made it out of port.
Lucy Powell either dropping a bollock or being remarkably honest, depending on your point of view, admitting that Ed will break a bunch of his election promises.
A cynic would think the senior Lib Dems are just trying to cling onto cabinet positions.
The Lib Dem party need to quickly get rid of the self serving Clegg and replace him with someone who will actually represent the views of the left.
There's no way that man actually thinks that forming a coalition with the tories is more representative of voters intentions than a Lab/Lib or Lab/SNP coalition
The Lib Dem party need to quickly get rid of the self serving Clegg and replace him with someone who will actually represent the views of the left.
There's no way that man actually thinks that forming a coalition with the tories is more representative of voters intentions than a Lab/Lib or Lab/SNP coalition
He's only going to be kept in his seat by tories voting for him, so he may as well defect.
Which applies to like 99.9999% of the population, so why single ballot spoilers as out as being lazy? Voting for some dickhead you don't like is just as "lazy".
Because those that argue that the 'only' option is to spoil a ballot are inherently wrong.
If they are SO disenchanted with the political choices, they have a much better option of running themselves and have much more impact. ..more impact than having no impact whatsoever.
These people are using 'disenfranchisement ' as an excuse to do something they believe makes them all 'anti-establishment' and rebellious.
If they were THAT bothered, they wouldn't be too lazy to run themselves. My point is, they aren't THAT bothered in the first place.
Well, thats a good way to twist words but yeah.
My argument is, if you are THAT bothered, you wouldn't be too 'lazy' to run.
Thing is, people who spoil votes, simply aren't THAT bothered. It's attention seeking.
That's it, I've decided that I'm standing as an independent candidate across all constituencies. My policies are;
Free seeing-eye humans for all teenagers so that they can continue to stare at their phones without the risk of bumping into people when they walk around.
A ban on oxygen for all over-65's to reduce the country's expenditure on pensions.
Scotland to be hauled into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean by tug boat and renamed Tax Avoidance Island to encourage foreign investment.
Vote Mr. Pigeon for a better tomorrow today (or whenever I get around to it).
Free seeing-eye humans for all teenagers so that they can continue to stare at their phones without the risk of bumping into people when they walk around.
A ban on oxygen for all over-65's to reduce the country's expenditure on pensions.
Scotland to be hauled into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean by tug boat and renamed Tax Avoidance Island to encourage foreign investment.
Vote Mr. Pigeon for a better tomorrow today (or whenever I get around to it).
SNP claiming they'll vote for proportional representation in Westminster, that's sealed it for me then.
Or perhaps too poor, or too busy, or unsuited to running...
How exactly does ballot spoiling draw attention to oneself?
Even that 10X increase would be less than a fifth of the total number of people who failed to vote at all in the last election. So, sure, if we got a 30X increase in people spoiling their ballot they might become a priority for the big parties, but that's fairly unlikely.
A party benefiting from FPTP arguing for a more proportional electoral system? What is this madness?
Spoiling a ballot is a regrettable turn of events and hardly something to brag about. I would argue that much of your label of laziness depends on how informed a voter is, for if somebody throws their support behind a particular candidate almost out of reflex, where lies the effort and due consideration?
As I said before there are a large % of the population that will never vote, irrespective of anything. I've set this figure at 15%, as that's how many people didn't turnout for the Scottish referendum, a vote that was significant for the Country and each vote did (potentially) have a direct impact on an important outcome. This 15% would represent around 7 million people that all parties will never be fussed about. Short of offering these 7 million people a wod of cash for their vote, they won't bother.
So the question is how to get the 20% that probably would vote if they felt their vote would make any difference or if they felt there was a party that was worth voting for. That's around 9 million people that don't bother voting because they're disenfranchised.
Now there's a big difference between politicians thinking there are 16 million people who will never vote regardless and therefore there's no reason to waste any time on them; versus them thinking that 9 million of them would vote for their parties if their views were heard. Spoiling the ballot changes your stance from "ungettable" to "potentially gettable" and they'll canvas why you aren't voting and what they'd have to do to get your vote.
Just like deciding to vote Green or UKIP in 99% of constituencies has zero effect on anything, but if millions of people do it i can have an effect on policy. With the moronic FPTP system the vast majority of votes mean nothing anyway; so either you think voting is worthwhile and therefore spoiling is worthwhile, or you think voting is pointless and therefore spoiling is pointless. The bolded statement you could say about any small party: why bother forming at all as unless you get a 30x increase in popularity you won't be a priority.
TL;DR If you believe that voting for the vast majority of the population is a worthwhile endeavor; so is spoiling.
I agree. But my argument is that if you are so bothered about the system that you feel the only answer is to spoil a ballot, then being too busy or unsuited isn't going to cause a problem. The money is another issue I agree.
Secondly, if one doesn't feel spoiling a ballot doesn't draw attention to oneself, or something in particular, then why do it? Why not just not vote?
Spoiling a ballot does nothing, says nothing and achieves nothing. It is the exact same as not voting. So why bother doing it?
The only answer I can think of is that the perpetrator *believes* it achieves something. Which it does not.
The 'lazy' comment was one of relative laziness. Yes, they are too lazy to run for themselves, just like I'm too lazy to become a nuclear physicist. It's not wrong that I'm not, but I could if I wanted.
Those that argue spoiling a ballot is their only option are wrong.
Is a pointless exercise, and the fact we are having this debate does show to an extent that it is about bringing attention to oneself. ..because I only commented when others talked about doing it as of it was a legitimate democratic process
Interesting juxtaposition between the Telegraph's 'UK suicide note' splash and the UKIP DPS ad across p2-3.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/may/05/ukip-daily-telegraph-ad
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/may/05/ukip-daily-telegraph-ad
A great loss to nuclear physics, I'm sure.
finneh made good points. I'm far too lazy to add to them.