UK General Election 2015 | Conservatives win with an overall majority

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Do you believe that children of richer people don't have a hugely significant advantage over their peers in modern society? Do you think that's fair? Do you believe in a genuinely meritocratic society?

It is highly questionable whether you could describe many of those caught in the IHT net as abundantly wealthy. Equally as plausible, is that these were/are people on low to middle incomes who have striven and sacrificed over many years, in a region where costs are higher to boot. Labour would clobber "hard working families" at a time of loss.

If the issue is one of council tax reform or channels of revenue in life, well that's another matter perhaps.

 

[Silva]

But cutting IHT doesn't benefit the ones who worked hard, it benefits their children.

 

[ThierryHenry]

It is highly questionable whether you could describe many of those caught in the IHT net as abundantly wealthy. Equally as plausible, is that these were/are people on low to middle incomes who have striven and sacrificed over many years, in a region where costs are higher to boot. Labour would clobber "hard working families" at a time of loss.

Well yeah, I'll be caught in that 'IHT net' when my parents pass away, and they live in a pretty shit part of London (Walthamstow for the record). We're hardly wealthy, but our house is worth about five(!) times what it was when they bought it just over twenty years ago. You could barely argue that they've earned that wealth, let alone me, who's already massively benefited from their cultural capital to get a decent education in an area with a poor public schools system. Some of that money has to go back to improving our area rather than all lining my middle-aged pocket by the time they pass.

This idea that a family are being 'clobbered' when being taxed on a one-off, unearned, windfall of over £650k is ridiculous.

The geography argument is more valid, no-one is going to disagree that more needs to be done to de-centralise wealth in the country.

 

[Silva]

Are 20 people here really going to vote for UKIP?

 

[LitterBug]

What right has government to interfere with the lawful dispensing of goods by an individual(s)? In all likelihood these will already have been taxed according to their value through other channels.

As others have mentioned the geographical disparity is farcical, provided that you live in the right part of the country (typically with a lower cost of living) bequeathing any assets is little trouble at all. @Jippy put forward the possibility of charitable donations as an alternative, certainly people would have more confidence in that form of disposal than than government.

Laughable to suggest that charities spend money better than the government. At least you know where every penny of the government money goes to, but with Charities billions goes amiss all over the world, ending up in corrupt officials pockets and a lot of it funding terrorism and possibly every other cause Charities are fighting against.

We have many clients who are charities and their spending is RIDICULOUS. I have used caps there because it truly is something to scream about. They buy all top of the line equipment money can buy and go on a spending frenzy if
they haven't allocated all their budget. Sure they do some work but I can say this with complete confidence at least for IT, that 75% of their spending is absolutely wasted!

Its logical, why would they care about managing it better if its not their money?

 

[soap]

In what way has the deficit not been halted?

*halving. fecking predictive text

 

[MikeUpNorth]

It is highly questionable whether you could describe many of those caught in the IHT net as abundantly wealthy. Equally as plausible, is that these were/are people on low to middle incomes who have striven and sacrificed over many years, in a region where costs are higher to boot. Labour would clobber "hard working families" at a time of loss.

I hate to say this Nick, but you have it backwards with your focus on the higher cost of housing in London and the South East. Given that owner-occupied housing is afforded abundant tax-breaks (what other investment incurs no capital gains tax?!) the South East has had a huge advantage in that it gets to generate wealth without paying an equivalent amount of tax for this increase in value.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

But cutting IHT doesn't benefit the ones who worked hard, it benefits their children.

And? I should like to think that most parents have some regard for the fate of their children?

With stamp duty and council tax various arms of the state have already snacked upon wealth as it is reflected in the value of a home,

 

[Silva]

And? I should like to think that most parents have some regard for the fate of their children?

With stamp duty and council tax various arms of the state have already snacked upon wealth as it is reflected in the value of a home,

And it's a damn big advantage they have on kids who don't have rich parents. How is that right? It's the kind of thing that leads to and reenforces long term inequality.

 

[evra]

Do you believe that children of richer people don't have a hugely significant advantage over their peers in modern society? Do you think that's fair? Do you believe in a genuinely meritocratic society?

An inheritance tax is a way to (only somewhat partially) offset the way that wealth breeds inequality, and in that respect it's barely a dip in the ocean. The suggestion we live in a socialist country is

I never said we lived in a socialist country, I said that the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. Presumably this notion of increasing inheritance tax would be to fund inherently socialist initiatives, such as the NHS.

Rich children have advantages and not everyone that gets rich deserves to get rich, this is all obvious. I just don't think the best way to increase average living standards is to increase taxation. I believe in capitalism with government intervention to counter market failures (mainly public goods). That method has been responsible for most of the advances in average living standards over the last few centuries.

 

[Jippy]

This is actually quite a good summation of the election campaign.

I don’t get pretty much everything that is happening in the election campaign. It is a ceaseless and tiresome stream of confrontational and antagonistic soundbites. Doesn’t anyone have anything either positive or reconciliatory to say? And how is anyone to have any confidence in a coalition where the partners have spent weeks slagging everything one another stands for? I suppose it could be worse: the American campaign has started and there is 18 months to go.

 

[Smores]

And? I should like to think that most parents have some regard for the fate of their children?

With stamp duty and council tax various arms of the state have already snacked upon wealth as it is reflected in the value of a home,

Fate of their children? You're talking about being taxed on inheritances above 325/650k, I think they'll survive.

This isnt about being worried for the welfare of benefactors at all, the argument always comes back to 'its not fair I earned it' and distrust in government spending which in that case you have the option of giving it to charity.

 

[Ubik]

This is actually quite a good summation of the election campaign.

The slagging off despite knowing it'll be coalition/minority time after the election point is a good one, and it's primarily thanks to the electoral system. Neither the Tories or Labour will admit they're contemplating such deals as it undermines their manifestos and looks vaguely defeatist given the point of FPTP is to produce strong single party majorities. In countries where coalitions are the norm and majorities are highly unusual, there's often some form of alliance agreement in place and publicly stated pre-election so voters have a better idea of where they stand and the likely compromises to be made. But it doesn't make much sense, for instance, for the Lib Dems to say today "we applaud Labour for demonstrating a commitment to responsibility in addition to their long-standing pursuit of social justice", as that's their entire platform gone and more votes lost to Labour. So instead you get Nick Clegg comparing them to a relapsing alcoholic.

 

[Smores]

And it's a damn big advantage they have on kids who don't have rich parents. How is that right? It's the kind of thing that leads to and reenforces long term inequality.

You're forgetting the magical trickle down effect. We're all better off if the wealthy have the money rather than the government.

The poor are obviously at fault for such inequality anyway spending their welfare checks on cigs and booze rather than investing in assets to pass onto their children. Ungrateful plebs

 

[LitterBug]

You're forgetting the magical trickle down effect. We're all better off if the wealthy have the money rather than the government.

The poor are obviously at fault for such inequality anyway spending their welfare checks on cigs and booze rather than investing in assets to pass onto their children. Ungrateful plebs

The only way the wealth will trickle down if it is forcefully collected via tax otherwise the glass magically gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger without a drop trickling down.

One very easy example is supermakret profits. They have been getting bigger and bigger and bigger while continuously paying minimum wage to staff.

 

[peterstorey]

You can write what they know about fiscal responsibility on the back of a postage stamp.

Tell that to your pals in global finance, the only 'responsibility' they embrace is that of filling their boots at others expense.

 

[Jippy]

Are 20 people here really going to vote for UKIP?

Am sure than that will given the swathes who don't come into the CE. They are strangely quiet about their voting intentions publicly though.

 

[peterstorey]

I believe in capitalism with government intervention to counter market failures

Of course you do - the good old 'privatise the profits and socialise the losses' game that we're still playing

 

[Jippy]

Tell that to your pals in global finance, the only 'responsibility' they embrace is that of filling their boots at others expense.

My wife works in hedge funds, so we are likely to have different views on tax etc...tbh

 

[Ubik]

Ed's speech went down well by all accounts, hopefully undoes some of the damage from the 'mare at the conference.

 

[peterstorey]

My wife works in hedge funds, so we are likely to have different views on tax etc...tbh

You can't argue against the facts that global finance caused a worldwide recession that ordinary people are still paying for. how is that fair, equitable or desirable?

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Presumably this notion of increasing inheritance tax would be to fund inherently socialist initiatives, such as the NHS.

As far as I know, no one is proposing to increase inheritance tax. The Tories are proposing to cut inheritance tax... another tax cut for the rich.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

For those either interested or sad enough, the Labour Party manifesto is available for viewing/download here :: http://labour.org.uk/manifesto2015

As i heard one political commentator observe the other day, it is often the policies you don't see mentioned (or at least not in great detail) which can be the most revealing.

 

[ThierryHenry]

Am sure than that will given the swathes who don't come into the CE. They are strangely quiet about their voting intentions publicly though.

Would be good to have a few fighting their corner for the smaller parties - Lib Dems, Greens, UKIP etc. Don't think I've heard anything from the 10 LDs. There's even five voting for 'other' parties... who are they? SWPs? Monster Looneys?

 

[Ubik]

Would be good to have a few fighting their corner for the smaller parties - Lib Dems, Greens, UKIP etc. Don't think I've heard anything from the 10 LDs. There's even five voting for 'other' parties... who are they? SWPs? Monster Looneys?

Northern Irish parties I imagine, the main UK based parties don't stand there.

 

[ThierryHenry]

Northern Irish parties I imagine, the main UK based parties don't stand there.

I know I know... just hopeful.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I've just been reading through the section on governance and electoral reform, these are some of the key points:


- 16/17-year-olds to get the vote.

- An elected "Senate of the Nations" to replace the House of Lords.

- To fulfil devolution commitments for both Scotland and Wales.

- Set up a commission to examine the idea of constitutional change in England (expected completion date of 2035 ).

- Oh, and it looks like Labour is going to make another attempt at implementing Prescott's Regions idea.

 

[Ubik]

I've just been reading through the section on governance and electoral reform, these are some of the key points:


- 16/17-year-olds to get the vote.

- An elected "Senate of the Nations" to replace the House of Lords.

- To fulfil devolution commitments for both Scotland and Wales.

- Set up a commission to examine the idea of constitutional change in England (expected completion date of 2035 ).

- Oh, and it looks like Labour is going to make another attempt at implementing Prescott's Regions idea.

I've always liked the sound of the Senate idea, probably go straight into the long grass should they win though.

 

[rednev]

I've just been reading through the section on governance and electoral reform, these are some of the key points:


- 16/17-year-olds to get the vote.

- An elected "Senate of the Nations" to replace the House of Lords.

- To fulfil devolution commitments for both Scotland and Wales.

- Set up a commission to examine the idea of constitutional change in England (expected completion date of 2035 ).

- Oh, and it looks like Labour is going to make another attempt at implementing Prescott's Regions idea.

Urgh, more devolution....just what the UK needs.

 

[Redlambs]

As far as I know, no one is proposing to increase inheritance tax. The Tories are proposing to cut inheritance tax... another tax cut for the rich.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but in what way is this a tax cut for the rich? Isn't it on all houses up to a million? I guess they could limit it to, say, half that.


Anyway, I'm still breaking my lifetime habit and voting Tory. There was as interesting article in one of the papers today about small business owners, and I know exactly how they feel. Under Labour a lot went to shit for my work and is only now recovering. I've given up caring about who says what and sticking with Labour, it's about providing for my family and working hard to do that, and right now this government if far better for that than the frankly disastrous efforts of Labour. I've just lost all faith in them, they clearly aren't fit to be in charge, and bringing Prescott back potentially? Feck right off with that.

 

[evra]

I've just been reading through the section on governance and electoral reform, these are some of the key points:


- 16/17-year-olds to get the vote.

- An elected "Senate of the Nations" to replace the House of Lords.

- To fulfil devolution commitments for both Scotland and Wales.

- Set up a commission to examine the idea of constitutional change in England (expected completion date of 2035 ).

- Oh, and it looks like Labour is going to make another attempt at implementing Prescott's Regions idea.

Add to that increasing the top rate of tax to 50% and increasing CT by a point. Both will decrease the likelihood of talented people and profitable businesses coming to the UK. It's stunningly cynical given that it has been shown time and time again that a higher top rate actually decreases tax revenue, it's purely a political move to appear tough on the enemy, namely anyone successful.

Look at what happened in France when they increased the top rate, look at the increased tax revenues the exchequer received when the Conservatives cut the rate. The policy is completely nonsensical and exemplifies Labour's economic incompetence.

 

[Jippy]

As far as I know, no one is proposing to increase inheritance tax. The Tories are proposing to cut inheritance tax... another tax cut for the rich.

And it's a damn big advantage they have on kids who don't have rich parents. How is that right? It's the kind of thing that leads to and reenforces long term inequality.

Owning a house worth over £325k does not equate to rich. Some very loose definitions of the word on here.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I've always liked the sound of the Senate idea, probably go straight into the long grass should they win though.

Whilst there can be little doubt that the House of Lords has become somewhat bloated in recent years, i'd almost rather single chamber than yet another layer of government, particularly with electoral participation being what it is.


This passage i agree with unreservedly however. Ironically, and perhaps to the dislike of some of its voters, UKIP was an early advocate for greater assistance to Syrian refugees.

We will end the
indefinite detention of people in the asylum and immigration system, ending
detention for pregnant women and those who have been the victims of sexual
abuse or trafficking. And we will ensure Britain continues its proud history of
providing refuge for those fleeing persecution by upholding our international
obligations, including working with the UN to support vulnerable refugees from
Syria.

Besides some rhetoric about this year's UN summit on climate change (for which there is cross-party agreement i believe), and a reference to one-million interest free loans for improved energy efficiency, environmental policy seems to be a bit scant. Labour do intend to put a halt to the cull of badgers and that will be received positively, on the other hand there is no mention of the words "greenfield" or "green belt" anywhere in the manifesto. I expected them to make a greater push with the threat posed by the Greens.

I've lost count of the number of committees and commissions that are to be established, so the lawyers will be happy.



ETA: I can't discover any means by which these one-million interest free loans are to be funded, this would go against Miliband's pledge of the day.

 

[Ubik]

Owning a house worth over £325k does not equate to rich. Some very loose definitions of the word on here.

The IFS themselves say that the Tory policy disproportionately benefits those "towards the top of the income distribution" - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...itance-tax-plan-human-instinct-george-osborne

Again, when you're about to cut even further into public services, your priorities for spending say a lot.

 

[rednev]

Add to that increasing the top rate of tax to 50% and increasing CT by a point. Both will decrease the likelihood of talented people and profitable businesses coming to the UK. It's stunningly cynical given that it has been shown time and time again that a higher top rate actually decreases tax revenue, it's purely a political move to appear tough on the enemy, namely anyone successful.

Look at what happened in France when they increased the top rate, look at the increased tax revenues the exchequer received when the Conservatives cut the rate. The policy is completely nonsensical and exemplifies Labour's economic incompetence.

The point on the laffer curve at which a higher rate of tax produces less tax revenue is highly variable, and nobody can pinpoint an exact figure for maximal revenue. When Labour increased the top rate of tax to 50%, revenue increased by a small amount....which is probably more significant than the contrary example you have given about revenue increasing when the Tories decreased the rate, seeing as though this happened as Britain was coming out of a recession.

You are right to say that this is political and not so much about economics, though. The 50% rate will not result in a great deal more revenue than 40% or 45%, but nor will it result in a great deal less. We would probably see similar revenues at anywhere between 40% and 50%.

 

[Jippy]

The IFS themselves say that the Tory policy disproportionately benefits those "towards the top of the income distribution" - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...itance-tax-plan-human-instinct-george-osborne

Again, when you're about to cut even further into public services, your priorities for spending say a lot.

What about the geographic argument? You can buy a five bedroomed detached house in some parts of the country for £325k. That wouldn't get you close to a two bed flat in Brook Green. Maybe they could introduce a square footage metric into the equation.

EDIT: Example of what money buys outside of London.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property...2;jsessionid=134315D89E6521F1AC48D3CB0BC52AC0

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Add to that increasing the top rate of tax to 50% and increasing CT by a point. Both will decrease the likelihood of talented people and profitable businesses coming to the UK. It's stunningly cynical given that it has been shown time and time again that a higher top rate actually decreases tax revenue, it's purely a political move to appear tough on the enemy, namely anyone successful.

Look at what happened in France when they increased the top rate, look at the increased tax revenues the exchequer received when the Conservatives cut the rate. The policy is completely nonsensical and exemplifies Labour's economic incompetence.

The increase to the top rate of tax was widely expected i imagine, however the change to CT does run contrary to the boasting nature of Labour's manifesto when foreign investment is mentioned.

The lurking and quietly forgotten tax hike, is when Balls announced his intention to lower the threshold for the 40p rate. Were he to declare such now the polls would not respond favourably.

 

[Ubik]

What about the geographic argument? You can buy a five bedroomed detached house in some parts of the country for £325k. That wouldn't get you close to a two bed flat in Brook Green. Maybe they could introduce a square footage metric into the equation.

EDIT: Example of what money buys outside of London.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property...2;jsessionid=134315D89E6521F1AC48D3CB0BC52AC0

As others have mentioned previously though, London and the South East have enjoyed a continuing house-price boom which accordingly benefits those who own there.

 

[Jippy]

The IFS themselves say that the Tory policy disproportionately benefits those "towards the top of the income distribution" - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...itance-tax-plan-human-instinct-george-osborne

Again, when you're about to cut even further into public services, your priorities for spending say a lot.

It was somewhat farcical when both parties are quoting the IFS's criticisms of their opponents' policy costings, while ignoring the fact the IFS's criticisms of their own.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Laughable to suggest that charities spend money better than the government. At least you know where every penny of the government money goes to, but with Charities billions goes amiss all over the world, ending up in corrupt officials pockets and a lot of it funding terrorism and possibly every other cause Charities are fighting against.

We have many clients who are charities and their spending is RIDICULOUS. I have used caps there because it truly is something to scream about. They buy all top of the line equipment money can buy and go on a spending frenzy if
they haven't allocated all their budget. Sure they do some work but I can say this with complete confidence at least for IT, that 75% of their spending is absolutely wasted!

Its logical, why would they care about managing it better if its not their money?

I beg to differ. But then my trust in central government and its decision making is variable at best, and virtually non-existent so far as my local authority goes.

It would also be their choice, whether they wish to see a portion of their money be taken up by administrative costs for a cause they believe in, rather than a wasteful and ineffectual bureaucracy.