Read the post again.
UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
- Status
Read the post again.
It's because we can all spell.Just like Redcafe mostly is.
That's like minded people for you I guess
Bolshit
I know, I was just being faseshus.
Ok yankie trumpie. Say it hows you c it.
There was a suggestion that corbyn wouldn't whip against it. You should have seen the reactions here.
Kerching.
To be fair Corbyn shat the bed on Brexit during the referendum itself by not backing Remain as strongly as he should have. I even understand his position since one of my left wing friends in UK voted for leave due to precisely the same reasons I suspect Corbyn was lukewarm on EU membership. But as a leader of a major political party Corbyn should have been much more pragmatic. But yeah the absolute cynical and cunning political play after brexit would have been to let Tories take the blame by facilitating the deal to go through. I guess one can argue that same should still happen by the next election since now all the blame of any adverse effect of Brexit would fall on Johnson/Tories.
Corbyn just isn't cynical and calculating enough to be PM it seems. That's politics these days, power over principles.
All time classic
That was an egregious strategic error by Corbyn. They were so convinced at the time that they’d win a general election even though Corbyn's ratings were on the floor. It would have totally stitched up the Tory party as well and caused internal war between the ERG and the moderates.
Truth is that the ’talent’ behind the scenes with the hard left is woefully inadequate. They were completely played by Cummings and fell into every trap he set for them. Boris even used the line ‘I voted for Brexit more times than Corbyn’ in the election race as ‘proof‘ for the case that Labour wanted to stop it altogether.
It's so bad to wish for death but its great to vote to increase death.
When wasn't it... you can't put much policy into effect if you can't win power
@Classical Mechanic @crappycraperson
I'm absolutely for cynical leadership. I am in favor of fake news. I sincerely believe that the only thing stopping a bad man with many lies is a good man with more lies. I admire Mitch McConnell, and in India, a credibly-accused murderer who is now the union home minister. They are skilled in creating propaganda networks, bullying and cajoling and threatening allies and opponents into winning important votes, manipulating the judiciary, managing the press either through direct ownership (one America network, republic tv) or indirect control (Fox, times now*).
It is a fact, with some academic papers backing this, that the press was amazingly biased against corbyn, it is always a fact that the left will not have the institutional access that the right does. But these are not excuses. These are reasons to play the game in an equally cynical and ruthless way as your opponent. That is my main criticism of Corbyn. Are memes with you and the IRA, often with fake pics, circulating on FB? Why the feck aren't things about Johnson's stated contempt for the working class in constant circulation from the day he became leader? Why doesn't JRM have the prominence of Dianne Abbott?
I am not sure a decisive stance on the referendum would have worked better than this. The party was hopelessly divided, and that was obvious since 2015. What was needed was better and simpler messaging. Parliament sucks, and could not deliver on the people choice to leave. We are "taking back control" from the idiots in Westminster back to the people and protecting you from a "Westminster Brexit"/ "Jacob Rees Mogg Brexit".
*My mother writes for 2 Indian papers not known to be in favor of the govt, and in both she wasn't allowed to criticize the PM directly for creating religious discord, some months back she wasn't allowed to name the home minister either, and last week a reference to their party was removed.
I'm absolutely for cynical leadership. I am in favor of fake news. I sincerely believe that the only thing stopping a bad man with many lies is a good man with more lies. I admire Mitch McConnell, and in India, a credibly-accused murderer who is now the union home minister. They are skilled in creating propaganda networks, bullying and cajoling and threatening allies and opponents into winning important votes, manipulating the judiciary, managing the press either through direct ownership (one America network, republic tv) or indirect control (Fox, times now*).
It is a fact, with some academic papers backing this, that the press was amazingly biased against corbyn, it is always a fact that the left will not have the institutional access that the right does. But these are not excuses. These are reasons to play the game in an equally cynical and ruthless way as your opponent. That is my main criticism of Corbyn. Are memes with you and the IRA, often with fake pics, circulating on FB? Why the feck aren't things about Johnson's stated contempt for the working class in constant circulation from the day he became leader? Why doesn't JRM have the prominence of Dianne Abbott?
I am not sure a decisive stance on the referendum would have worked better than this. The party was hopelessly divided, and that was obvious since 2015. What was needed was better and simpler messaging. Parliament sucks, and could not deliver on the people choice to leave. We are "taking back control" from the idiots in Westminster back to the people and protecting you from a "Westminster Brexit"/ "Jacob Rees Mogg Brexit".
*My mother writes for 2 Indian papers not known to be in favor of the govt, and in both she wasn't allowed to criticize the PM directly for creating religious discord, some months back she wasn't allowed to name the home minister either, and last week a reference to their party was removed.
Last edited:
Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but it’s not surprising that the majority of conservative voters were in the older age brackets.
Labour need to find a way to get more votes, but they need to be careful not to lose the young majority they have.
Don't hold your breath, the young tend to shy away from the left naturally once they become older, wiser, and learn how the world actually works.
People keep saying this but that theory is built entirely around a generation of people who were given every opportunity in life to acquire that wealth with affordable housing and free education.
Stands to reason that they'd shift to the right to keep it.
This is true actually.
People talk about this as if it is a known fact of life in democracies.
Firstly, most countries haven't had truly functioning democracies for long enough to say people tend to do anything. In the UK itself, we only achieved universal suffrage a century ago. In that time, we've pretty much had steady growths where each generation is better off than the last one, especially so for the boomers. This may be the first time in a long time that this is not the case.
It will be interesting to see if our kids' generation also moves to the right when they're working gig economy jobs and not managing to get on the property ladder until their 30s/40s.
Tories going all in on the BBC for anti-Tory bias
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/15/boris-johnson-threatens-bbc-with-two-pronged-attack
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/15/boris-johnson-threatens-bbc-with-two-pronged-attack
There's also the condescending, cynical, callous and arrogant assumption that the politics of the left are naive, unwise and immature.
I'm 43. My politics have not shifted right. My income is high but I have not stopped believing in redistribution of wealth or equality. I do not believe that self interest ends at taxation and that I personally benefit from a fairer society. I admire ideals and do not find them stupid. I am not unwise or a callow idiot for feeling so and I do not appreciate the continued explicit and implicit inferences that I am.
But I am not surprised. This narrative and its cousins of related ilk have always existed and now they dominate.
It is the youth I look to for hope and that they may change the future for the better as some controlling generations have in the past and that the current controlling generations have not.
I think conservative attempts to defund the BBC are quite short sighted. It is an excellent soft power tool globally for this country.
Well I’d reply but the posts above have explained why this post is misinformed.
As for all old people being wise, all I can say is.
The lessons from American election of 2016 are the same as the lessons of Brexit and of UK election this week: the electorate won't necessarily vote for the best for their nation or even the best for themselves personally; they're apparently more concerned about voting for whichever 'team' they've pinned their colours to. And those 'teams' seem to increasingly be defined by race and identity politics.
It seemingly doesn't matter if Brexit causes a white working class family to lose their income, as long as it's a win for the white working class overall. The logic seems to be that they'll eventually get a bigger share of the pie because non-white non-working class individuals are going to be denied theirs.
If Labour want to achieve anything, they need to simmer down on the inclusiveness rhetoric and learn how to play the dog whistle. Trump figured it out, Boris figured it out, and the Russians figured it out.
It seemingly doesn't matter if Brexit causes a white working class family to lose their income, as long as it's a win for the white working class overall. The logic seems to be that they'll eventually get a bigger share of the pie because non-white non-working class individuals are going to be denied theirs.
If Labour want to achieve anything, they need to simmer down on the inclusiveness rhetoric and learn how to play the dog whistle. Trump figured it out, Boris figured it out, and the Russians figured it out.
It's an actual fecking disgrace. They have also threatened Channel 4. They are actively and openly seeking to control the press that they currently do not absolutely control. It is totalitarian. It is terrifying.
They are just putting pressure on them to be more favourable to the Tories. I agree that they'd be crazy to destroy it because as you say, it is a crown jewel brand for us.
Very well said.
Widening the discussion a bit, changing misconceptions about immigration will be crucial to winning back a lot of these lost seats.
If Brexit was the issue that dominated this election, then immigration was the issue that dominated Brexit for a lot of people. People that were told that globalisation would make everybody richer but haven't seen any changes besides from the makeup of their communities.
The easy answers to societies ills peddled by the right (it's the fault of immigrants and Brussels bureaucracy, let's take back control!) has been more effective than the more complicated and nuanced version presented by the left.
I don't fault the Labour party for fighting for anti-racism, because it's a battle that needs to be fought, but we need to find a way to do it that speaks to the disillusioned, and that will be incredibly difficult.
I don't know how we change the minds of people who think their lives would be better if we ended freedom of movement, but I know that it woke centrism doesn't work.
I'm starting to think that changing the narrative about immigration in a way that connects with people in these towns without sounding patronising is a key step on the road to rebuilding the Labour party.
They will....90% of people do, eventually, as they inherit what their parents leave to them as their inheritence.
Don't get me wrong - I count myself enormously fortunate to have been born when I was and where I was and my generation probably are going to be the last to have it as good as it's been.
But to believe that hard left socialism is the answer to 21st century money and wealth problems is to reject all the evidence that it absolutely isn't.
It worries me too. I mean it looks like they are going to spend on the NHS but I really feel they're trying to make the UK a one party state. They have to be aware of the age demographics on voting and how they are alienating 'generation rent' from a natural drift to the Tories as they get older. It feels like they are now looking at more subversive measures to ensure they hold on to power. The essence of the Tory party is a feeling that they have a divine right to rule this country. The other thing that worries me is how much easier totalitarianism will be with the aid of modern technology.
I totally agree. The fair play ideal is a road to complete domination by the Tories. I think the left completely underestimated Boris and his team too, to quick to dismiss them as idiots because of Boris's persona.
Do you mean your mum's editor told them to hold back to be tasteful or is it because they fear repercussions?
That’s not the reason. The reason is, in the past, the older you got, the more you stood to lose, whether that’s assets, property or family (all conservative priorities). Whether that’s still the case, we will see.
People of my age, early 40's/late 30's, basically the tail end of Gen-X and start of Millenials are are still holding left I would guess.
From memory a big reason labour won in 97 was because of outrage over years of Tory sleaze. Basically the next labour govt will likely get in because the Tories have become corrupt to the point of exasperating the electorate.
I hope so but currently it seems they can do whatever they want no matter how bad and it just doesn't matter. Johnson alone has enough on him he'd have been destroyed in the 90s and it has no impact on him whatsoever.
Anything that goes wrong with the EU negotiations will be blamed on Europe. Gut wrenching levels of child poverty, rough sleepers, savage benefit cuts and the collapse of social care has not hurt them. Openly lying and threatening the media has done nothing to stop them. Causal racism appears to have gone down quite well in the UK.
I hope this changes but what would have been electoral poison in the past now seems to be positively advantageous electorally.
If the Tories play their cards right, then they can be in power for the next two decades, that is until 2040. This election result has broken Labour, it is now both a spent and a split force, where one side won't change, and the other can't!
In voting for the Tory Party, and hence to have broken with their past, with their heritage in some cases, traditional Labour voters have indeed become 'leavers' … from the Labour Party and may never return to it. From being a person ridiculed as a 'buffoon' Boris Johnson may become the most powerful/successful leader the Tory party has seen in over half a century. One specific reason that underlines this was when he ruthlessly dispensed with 21 members of the Party who wouldn't toe the line... his own 'night of the long knives' (ref Harold MacMillan). Boris may smile and joke a lot, but he will not take any prisoners, with friends in particular!
Whilst Jeremy Corbyn may (for a short while longer anyway) wake up every morning still wondering 'how the hell did I become the Leader of the Labour Party'? Then, also due to the same strange ravages of fate, Boris may wake each morning for the next decade wondering when someone is going to poke him in the ribs and say 'wake up Boris, time to go'.
The 'watershed' in UK politics that Brexit already has been seen to underpin, i.e. the breaking of traditional voter bonds, will be evidenced further down the line. The relationship between the four Countries that make up the UK will probably changed fundamentally, a new written Constitution may be brought forth. With such a large majority in Parliament what is unlikely to change any time soon, is a shift from majority voting...first past the post ensures 'the winner takes it all', as an awful lot of people are likely to find out over the next 5-10 years.
In voting for the Tory Party, and hence to have broken with their past, with their heritage in some cases, traditional Labour voters have indeed become 'leavers' … from the Labour Party and may never return to it. From being a person ridiculed as a 'buffoon' Boris Johnson may become the most powerful/successful leader the Tory party has seen in over half a century. One specific reason that underlines this was when he ruthlessly dispensed with 21 members of the Party who wouldn't toe the line... his own 'night of the long knives' (ref Harold MacMillan). Boris may smile and joke a lot, but he will not take any prisoners, with friends in particular!
Whilst Jeremy Corbyn may (for a short while longer anyway) wake up every morning still wondering 'how the hell did I become the Leader of the Labour Party'? Then, also due to the same strange ravages of fate, Boris may wake each morning for the next decade wondering when someone is going to poke him in the ribs and say 'wake up Boris, time to go'.
The 'watershed' in UK politics that Brexit already has been seen to underpin, i.e. the breaking of traditional voter bonds, will be evidenced further down the line. The relationship between the four Countries that make up the UK will probably changed fundamentally, a new written Constitution may be brought forth. With such a large majority in Parliament what is unlikely to change any time soon, is a shift from majority voting...first past the post ensures 'the winner takes it all', as an awful lot of people are likely to find out over the next 5-10 years.
Last edited:
Yeah, demographics and voting is complicated. Thatcher dominated 18-25 year olds in 1979.
It was a factor in “time for a change” but so was an electable, clearly able opposition.
Come off it trying to make Corbyn into some kind of martyr for political purity. Cynicism and pragmatism have been the driving force since the days of Robert Walpole. Corbyn was basically incapable of switching from being a rebel backbencher, where you can indulge “no compromise” principles on the basis you are not trying to influence and ultimately implement policy, to being leader of the main opposition. In short, he’s a cretin whose intellectual development stopped about 50 years ago. And the country is paying a very heavy price for having such a woefully inadequate man in charge of Labour at such a perilous time.
Well you are probably going to be one of the 18% then. But not everyone will think like you. And also maybe you feel you'd rather give most of your wealth to the government for redistribution after your death rather than your children, but again not everyone will be like you.
For a lot of old people who are thinking about death, giving their wealth (whatever's left of it) to their kids > giving it back to the government.
Last edited:
"Most" of their wealth? I assume you're referring to inheritance tax, in which case "most" is not correct.
Personally, I do agree with inheritance tax although where the threshold sits seems a reasonable area of discussion.
Happy to be a minority if that is what I am, anathema though such a concept seems to now be to the voting population this country.
Except, of course, the Tories don't reduce the tax burden proportionally for your "average working man" at all and a desire for low taxation is merely one aspect of the opinions we all seemingly develop as we grow older.
Give a person property and make them fear losing it.
Tell him the other people are coming to take his wealth and watch them hold their riches tight.
Control the press to spin your propaganda and target it well, and threaten media that does not comply, so the people know your truth.
Collapse the social care network so that inherited wealth is ever more important and create a self fulfilling feedback loop.
I have no idea which 18% you refer to and can see no clear evidence that age in of itself leads to increasingly right wing voting that is not anecdotal nor any study that proves causation. I hope it is not true and, if it is, then I hope I do not succumb to this dulling of my social conscience.
- Status