UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%

  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%

  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%

  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%

  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%

  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%

  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%

  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%

  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%

  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%
  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
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CassiusClaymore said:
Sounds like my brother...



I've come to the conclusion that people will just believe what they want to believe.
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It's an extremely scary world we live in to be honest. Quotes like that terrify me because it really does add to the 'argument' that the majority of people are stupid. Really lacking in intelligence. Not really because he's voted Tory, but his reasoning for voting Tory - you would probably have seen identical quotes back in the days of Tony Blair regarding voting Labour. There is just a scary number of stupid people walking the streets who simply just do and say what they are programmed to do and say.

"I voted for change". The bloke has clearly read or heard this soundbite but doesnt actually know what the word 'change' actually means. Scary.
 
Ducklegs said:
The net benefit equation is only applicable to the first generation of immigrants.

When they have children here, its THEN that the CHILDREN become and always continue to be through out their life, a net loss, due to their greater use of public services, and seeing as the birth rate among immigrants from ALL countries is higher than UK nationals, this drags the overall "net contribution" figure down.

In short, its first generation immigrants from the EU that have had a net contribution once they have kids here, they cost us more than they contribute.
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Their kids are not immigrants. They are UK citizens and if there actually is proof that they become a net drain on resources the only thing that is evidence of is that our society is broken and these people are not being given the opportunities they should be. If we are spending the same per second generation immigrant head as we are native heads then they should have every chance to become valued contributing members of society. If they are not then we need to fix our broken infrastructure not our immigration system.
 
sullydnl said:
It definitely wasn't all down to Corbyn. You don't get a result this bad because of one particular factor and anyone analyzing it in that way is being overly simplistic.

Though judging by the opinions expressed by voters in the polling at least, Corbyn was the first and primary factor. His unpopularity was actually astonishing, with him being trusted less than Johnson even on issues like the NHS. Any leader who is that much of a turn off for voters will almost certainly cost you an election.

However, I think you're right that they would have lost anyway (albeit to a much lesser extent) even without Corbyn as Brexit (which seems to register as the 2nd biggest issue that turned people off Labour) would split a lot of Labour votes in key areas while the Conservatives more successfully harnessed leave votes. Of course Corbyn's own extended weaknesses and policy issues on Brexit likely exaggerated that split further but the reality is that even if Labour has magically found the optimum approach to Brexit it would still have split their votes. The political landscape was against them, regardless of who the leader was.
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Exactly. That's the issue for me. Corbyn was a terrible leader, but even if they had someone stronger, we would've had the same outcome, imo. When Brexit is done and Labour sorts their shit out, i think they can win back those voters who opted for the Conservatives. But they were fighting a losing battle on this one.
 
nimic said:
You can say liberal left, but it doesn't give it meaning. You already said that you wanted a party that is specifically "business and middle-class friendly", which makes it clear you don't want a left-wing party to begin with. Besides, you realize the Lib Dems exist already?
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If this is your definition then Corbyn was centre right, because he was often at pains to say he was business friendly and that taxes would only go up for people on over 80k. You can be business and middle class friendly and still benefit the working class (see even Blair's government, which lowered poverty and homelessness, brought in a minimum wage and tax credits, spent massively on public services).
 
Ubik said:
If this is your definition then Corbyn was centre right, because he was often at pains to say he was business friendly and that taxes would only go up for people on over 80k. You can be business and middle class friendly and still benefit the working class (see even Blair's government, which lowered poverty and homelessness, brought in a minimum wage and tax credits, spent massively on public services).
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You can, but if the way you describe your perfect party is "business and middle class friendly", you're not looking for a left-wing party. That doesn't mean left-wing parties can't talk about business or the middle class. And like I said, the UK already has a liberal party in the centre. There is no room for Labour to be that too.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Sounds like my brother...



I've come to the conclusion that people will just believe what they want to believe.
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A few other similar anecdotes in the replies to that. Also a link to an article on a NHS report which was delayed to be released after the election results came out revealing that three pregnant women died because they mistakenly believed they would have to pay for care as the Conservative government introduced rules about 'health tourists' paying. They delayed seeking help and by the time they went to hospital it was too late - turned out all three were eligible for care and wouldn't have been charged as they weren't 'health tourists'.
 
In an alternate universe in which Corbyn did more to help Remain win the referendum rather than be passive perhaps he would be in pole position to win an election in May 2020 as the fixed term act dictated. Brexit has unleashed a culture war from which Labour many not recover.
 
Conservative MP Ben Bradley, who increased his majority in Mansfield to 16,000 at this election, has written a lengthy Twitter thread about why he thinks Labour performed poorly in its traditional heartland.

He says that since he won his seat from Labour in 2017, he has been "at pains to try and explain the difference between Labour voters in Islington and in Mansfield - it's not ideological up north, it's historic".

He says that he thinks it used to be the "party of the workers" but that it "doesn't get that any more" and it "looks down on working people".

He says that in his constituency of Mansfield, Labour has "spent decades harking back instead of looking forwards".
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That part angers and saddens me.
 
Boycott said:
In an alternate universe in which Corbyn did more to help Remain win the referendum rather than be passive perhaps he would be in pole position to win an election in May 2020 as the fixed term act dictated. Brexit has unleashed a culture war from which Labour many not recover.
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Did he want to remain?

I think, and this is just guesswork, that he was firmly leave. But couldn't risk pissing off those voting labour who went remain.
 
What worries me is that I think their is a real chance of the Conservatives holding on to their northern and midland gains for without doubt when you look at the seats where the Labour Party is still strong the majority are all in the metropolitan liberal elite areas.....they really have lost touch with their roots which does not bode well for having an effective opposition.
 
Virgil said:
What worries me is that I think their is a real chance of the Conservatives holding on to their northern and midland gains for without doubt when you look at the seats where the Labour Party is still strong the majority are all in the metropolitan liberal elite areas.....they really have lost touch with their roots which does not bode well for having an effective opposition.
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if the Tories keep hold of these seats in 5 years, it’s because they are doing something right. If that’s the case, then good. A big majority is an opportunity to move the country forward (not even talking about Brexit), and actually get some much needed legislation through Parliament.
 
Virgil said:
What worries me is that I think their is a real chance of the Conservatives holding on to their northern and midland gains for without doubt when you look at the seats where the Labour Party is still strong the majority are all in the metropolitan liberal elite areas.....they really have lost touch with their roots which does not bode well for having an effective opposition.
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It's actually pretty frightening how closely we are mirroring America. Labour, like the Democrats are focused on doing what is best for the average working class person. Meanwhile the Conservative/Republicans attach themselves to single emotive issues and convince the average working class person that they have their best interests at heart while they do the complete opposite and look after the corporations instead.
 


Campaign really does come across as Clinton levels of bad.
 
One thing the hard left get so wrong about the working class is they are invoking the spirit of the working class from a bygone era. The miners, the ship builders, factory assemblers, the union loyalists who wore being working class as a badge of honour. Those people are either really old now or dead. Those traditional traits of the working class is dead.

Today there are more people who identify themselves as middle class. And the working class of today enjoy more social mobility than their fathers and grandfathers. That's not to say they aren't struggling. Millions are. But they're not struggling to the extent their older generation were because the older generation fought to give them a better start in life. They're not in an "us vs them" class struggle as their fathers and grandfathers were. A kid who leaves school and follows his dad and does an apprenticeship may very well have a more secure job and income than a university graduate whose parents are professional workers. The solidarity among the old working class (men) is a cool thing of history to read on but you're not bringing it back. For starters men are no longer the breadwinner of the family. Furthermore nostalgia of it may backfire because there are in fact 50-60 year olds who probably saw their father toil away 18 hour days at the pits receiving dirt pay and not really seeing him around growing up. The old man may have wore that a badge of honour doing the hard graft and following a local lineage but the toil affected everyone.

Now in those small towns there is an "us vs them" race struggle because Brexit has unleashed the hidden xenophobia from the surface. Some of these towns barely have a migrant population but they've been conditioned into believing immigration in this country is to blame for job losses. That Westminster's uselessness is a direction of Brussels.
 
Redlambs said:
Did he want to remain?

I think, and this is just guesswork, that he was firmly leave. But couldn't risk pissing off those voting labour who went remain.
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He was historically a eurosceptic like Tony Benn and other old school left wing figures. But leaving the eu is going to paralyse this country for a generation and it would have been better for him, and for the country, if remain won so we could have addressed the problems in this country rather than outsource the blame to foreigners.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Sounds like my brother...



I've come to the conclusion that people will just believe what they want to believe.
Click to expand...

Being a political activist in this climate is pointless.
Stupid country full of stupid people.
 
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P-Ro said:
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Corbyn's Labour didn't do this.

Political parties have always had extreme sore losers. It's just now we have social media to make it viral and perpetuate a culture war. And the fact is Labour are losing elections in the social media era. If Corbyn got in the right wing would not have accepted it and moved on having done all they could to character assassinate him for four years.
 
Ducklegs said:
The net benefit equation is only applicable to the first generation of immigrants.

When they have children here, its THEN that the CHILDREN become and always continue to be through out their life, a net loss, due to their greater use of public services, and seeing as the birth rate among immigrants from ALL countries is higher than UK nationals, this drags the overall "net contribution" figure down.

In short, its first generation immigrants from the EU that have had a net contribution once they have kids here, they cost us more than they contribute.
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The children born in our country are British. What is this argument? That all children cost more than they contribute? That only children of EU immigrants are more likely to cost more than...I don't know..."real" British children?
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Sounds like my brother...



I've come to the conclusion that people will just believe what they want to believe.
Click to expand...


You have to understand this person is not wholly stupid. His thinking is that Brexit is the answer and their Labour MPs are blocking Brexit. They believe it and that’s why they have come to the “I’ve voted for a change” conclusion. I’ve seen many interviews of similar wording in the last few days and they’re all banking on the sunny uplands promised with Brexit. It’s only going to hit home when nothing materialises.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
The children born in our country are British. What is this argument? That all children cost more than they contribute? That only children of EU immigrants are more likely to cost more than...I don't know..."real" British children?
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Thanks for articulating this. I couldn’t quite work out why that post bothered me because it felt fundamentally racist but you’ve nailed it.
 
Ultimate Grib said:
You have to understand this person is not wholly stupid. His thinking is that Brexit is the answer and their Labour MPs are blocking Brexit. They believe it and that’s why they have come to the “I’ve voted for a change” conclusion. I’ve seen many interviews of similar wording in the last few days and they’re all banking on the sunny uplands promised with Brexit. It’s only going to hit home when nothing materialises.
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Maybe. On another level it's also a fundamental misunderstanding as to how councils get their funding.

Our Labour MP was just ousted by the latest parachuted in Tory despite figures showing he was the hardest working MP in the county. There's plenty who blame him for blocking Brexit no doubt but a lot who see the state of the town and think he/Labour are the ones responsible. The same kind of people who I assume believe Sadiq Khan is singularly to blame for knife crime in London.
 
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