UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%
  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%
  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%
  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%
  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%

  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
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I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see a new centrist party emerge with the likes of
Watson, chukka, swinson, berger, Gymiah being on the TV pundit rounds and quite possibly a big old chunk of the plp and libs forming a new centre left party in parliament if labour goes full ash sarka and declares luxury communism as a goal with wrong daily and burgon in charge

I think chukka is done with the labour party but I don't think he's done with politics
WTF is luxury communism?
And who is stupid enough to think that a party with the word ‘communism’ would ever gain any traction in C21 UK??!!
And how on earth did Sarkar gain so much influence in Labour?!

They all live in an alternate matrix. Can be no other explanation.
 
So much this. Begging for an election first rather than a referendum for a year because it was "the best way to sort Brexit", then complaining when you put up the worst performance since the 30s in that election for it being too Brexit focused, is bold.

It's not bold, it's pathetic.

Which is why those people who will blindly back whoever Corbyn and his cronies pushes as the next leader are in some ways worse than the swathes of people voting Tory because they know no better. Ignorance is one thing, but to be wilfully ignorant is another.
 
WTF is luxury communism?
And who is stupid enough to think that a party with the word ‘communism’ would ever gain any traction in C21 UK??!!
And how on earth did Sarkar gain so much influence in Labour?!

They all live in an alternate matrix. Can be no other explanation.

It's so weird, it really is.

Like the comrade shit Labour kept banging on about, particularly Thornberry. I mean, wut???
 
Wait, are we saying that calling each other comrades and talking about marxist principles ISN'T going to appeal to voters now?
 
WTF is luxury communism?
And who is stupid enough to think that a party with the word ‘communism’ would ever gain any traction in C21 UK??!!
And how on earth did Sarkar gain so much influence in Labour?!

They all live in an alternate matrix. Can be no other explanation.
What is luxury communism... Well you would have to ask ash when she isn't walking like a supermodel and feking like a champion (or somebody who just handed the Tories a landslide victory)



As to how she got so much power... Being loyal to the corbyn agenda... Momentum and the Twitter echo chamber of the left

Actually luxury communism relates to bastanis book fully automated luxury communism... Bastani founded Novato media... Ash sarker spouts shit on there
 
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He actually voted remain but now is talking about the will of the people and all that stuff. He also loves Trump. I think he’s a bit confused but refuses to listen when you try to engage with him on this stuff.
I was talking to someone a month ago who voted Remain but was now leave because of the ''democracy'' shtick(This person also mentioned eu bananas!) and yeah they wouldn't really listen to anything I was saying. You can bring up all the contradictions in their arguments but it just goes over their head.

People will say I’m arrogant etc. But this is genuine -I’ve seen some kids who think it’s rebellious and cool to see liberals pissed off and will do whatever it takes to do that, e.g vote conservative, praise Trump etc. The political correctness culture has in someways been counter productive in turning people away from liberal ideas and I can understand that frustration but geez! Is voting for the establishment the new anti-establishment ?
''Making life worse to own the libs'' seems very common(Its pretty much the bulk of modern conservative thought). There's a lot of young angry men out in the world who are looking for someone to blame(Rather than an answer to their problems)and boy does the right wing have some awful answers for them. A key pillar for conservatism is to de politicised people and if they can get whole group of men angry at some lady with blue hair on the internet then they are winning.

Its pretty sad to see.
 
Would love to see another attempt at a centrist party.There was such a clamoring for them last time.
 
To be fair I didnt actually know you could do that, although donations to government would be right at the bottom of my list. I suspect most don't know it's possible.

The bolded bit is spot on in truth. Why would anyone give extra in taxes when they could give directly to a cause where their funds actually make a difference?

Which also leads to another point. Reducing people's liquidity inevitably leads to a reduction in their ability to give to charity.

Talk about a specious argument... Tax only works when lots of people pay it together and do so predictably.

If charities, scholarship programs and various other causes for good in society can run successfully and perpetually whilst raising millions and helping millions on the donations and goodwill of the general public; without the threat of prison time for non-payment... Why wouldn't government be able to harness the apparant fact that millions of people are happy to pay billions extra in tax?

I can answer that question: firstly because government are inefficient and bureaucratic when it comes to spending money so very quickly people would decide they were getting very little bang (in the form of helping people) for their buck. Secondly these people who're eager to spend thousands extra in tax don't exist (in any meaningful numbers), from experience it's a theoretical argument generally made by people who're arguing that people other than themselves are happy to pay more.

People who're happy to spend their money in the pursuit of helping others already doing so in the form of charity. Legislating for them to have to redirect their goodwill, forcing them to spend their money instead on Velodromes, the Theatres Trust or the salary of people working at the House of Lords Appointment Commission instead of causes that are generally close to their hearts is outrageous.
 
This is a non-argument. People don't say that because they think they individually can fund any programs on their own, which is what donating a voluntary tax would essentially amount to.
I'm sure I've seen that argument used by some right wing media outlet in an attempt to "catch out libs", genuinely didn't think people used it as an actual argument.
 

Didn't take long for the JC to revert to type. Good job their views weren't heavily published during the election eh.
 

Didn't take long for the JC to revert to type. Good job their views weren't heavily published during the election eh.

Yeah I've read that too this morning. The lack of introspection is disturbing. I'd like to see someone even try to justify the bilge in this article...

https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/don-t-fall-for-bogus-claims-of-islamophobia-1.494367

Pretty obvious all along that the far right/populist movement is a push back against Islam. I don't think it will end there though, so those siding with it now should be well aware of the genie that's been let out of the bottle.
 
Yeah I've read that too this morning. The lack of introspection is disturbing. I'd like to see someone even try to justify the bilge in this article...

https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/don-t-fall-for-bogus-claims-of-islamophobia-1.494367

Pretty obvious all along that the far right/populist movement is a push back against Islam. I don't think it will end there though, so those siding with it now should be well aware of the genie that's been let out of the bottle.
I’d say you listen to the affected group when they claim racism. So you listen to Jews about antisemitism. You listen to Muslims about islamophobia. And you don’t listen to Melanie Philips about anything.
 
Well for one thing (maybe slightly digressing here) Universal Credit has been an unmitigated disaster for low income people. My sister is on it and honestly, the delays in payments and levels of bullshit you have to cut through just to get a payment are astounding. Labour have recognised that it’s a system that doesn’t work and did pledge to get rid of it. I honestly thought this would be a hugely popular decision but I barely heard anyone mention it in this election.

As for the worker rights, you don’t have sick pay or any stable employment in a zero hours contract. It’s what many people
Can only find work wise. Conservatives love to say that we have record low employment but it’s all distorted by people on zero hours or part time work that barely covers the bills. I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong that Ed Milliband in previous years tried to get them banned if he got in, again though nothing came of it.

I was speaking to someone who works in social housing and his view was that on the face of it the sliding scale universal credit system is a great idea...but it has been a disaster because of the way they've set it up. Delays in payments, everything in arrears. People who drop out of the working system have been really hit hard by it. They need to review and reform it.

I like the idea of zero hours contracts, get rid of them and you can just end up on a 1 hour contract I guess. I see no advantage or reason to banning zero hours contracts. Improve workers rights but don't ban them.
 
I’d say you listen to the affected group when they claim racism. So you listen to Jews about antisemitism. You listen to Muslims about islamophobia. And you don’t listen to Melanie Philips about anything.

In general I agree with you. However it can sometimes be difficult to ascertain who is reliably speaking for which group. Also, I think Melanie Philips article in the Times today was excellent.
 
I was speaking to someone who works in social housing and his view was that on the face of it the sliding scale universal credit system is a great idea...but it has been a disaster because of the way they've set it up. Delays in payments, everything in arrears. People who drop out of the working system have been really hit hard by it. They need to review and reform it.

I like the idea of zero hours contracts, get rid of them and you can just end up on a 1 hour contract I guess. I see no advantage or reason to banning zero hours contracts. Improve workers rights but don't ban them.

I was on a zero hours contract with an agency last year for about 6 months. Was ideal for me being at uni because I could be flexible when I could work and pick and choose which shifts to work. Definitely have their uses but sadly too many businesses have taken advantage of them. I know people who work in restaurants who do the same shifts every week and yet the company refuse to give them a proper contract.

I’d be against scrapping them completely, but there needs to be a reform of them to stop businesses abusing them as they are currently doing.
 
I’d say you listen to the affected group when they claim racism. So you listen to Jews about antisemitism. You listen to Muslims about islamophobia. And you don’t listen to Melanie Philips about anything.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. The trouble with this approach is how certain members of said affected groups weaponise claims of bigotry for their own disingenuous means. I wouldn't jump to treating a very right wing Jewish group's claims of antisemitism as gospel, especially if their intent is to silence any criticism of Israeli crimes, for the same reason I wouldn't trust someone like Anjem Choudhary on the issue of Islamophobia. By all means we should listen carefully to the concerns of these communities, but we also also shouldn't shy away from making objective claims ourselves.
 
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. The trouble with this approach is how certain members of said affected groups weaponise claims of bigotry for their own disingenuous means. I wouldn't jump to treating a very right wing Jewish group's claims of antisemitism as gospel, especially if their intent is to silence any criticism of Israeli crimes, for the same reason I wouldn't trust someone like Anjem Choudhary on the issue of Islamophobia. By all means we should listen carefully to the concerns of these communities, but we also also shouldn't shy away from making objective claims ourselves.

Yet when Jewish voters are leaving Labour in droves and the Chief Rabbi comes out in strong criticism of the party its still not enough.

But when a minority community with more electoral weight, the Indian community, made the first bit of noise about being upset about the Kashmir stance taken by Labour members, that stance was dropped like a stone.

It doesn't look good.
 
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Mods. Isn't it about time that the poll was removed from this thread.
It is totally meaningless now.
 
If charities, scholarship programs and various other causes for good in society can run successfully and perpetually whilst raising millions and helping millions on the donations and goodwill of the general public; without the threat of prison time for non-payment... Why wouldn't government be able to harness the apparant fact that millions of people are happy to pay billions extra in tax?

Because Governments and charities are two totally different beasts, both in scale and in activity. Its absurd to compare one with the other. If a Government's income was as precarious as the charity sectors it would have macro-economic consequences. When a Government posts unexpected drops in income, it can trigger recessions or spook the market. Suggesting a Government should consider this as a plan of action beggars belief.

I can answer that question: firstly because government are inefficient and bureaucratic when it comes to spending money so very quickly people would decide they were getting very little bang (in the form of helping people) for their buck.

It costs the charity sector £1 to raise £5 from the public. It costs the Government £1 to raise £175 in taxation. Your claim that charities are more efficient is, at best, debatable.

Secondly these people who're eager to spend thousands extra in tax don't exist (in any meaningful numbers), from experience it's a theoretical argument generally made by people who're arguing that people other than themselves are happy to pay more.

In which case arguing that optional payments should be part of a Governments remit would be pretty daft then, no?

People who're happy to spend their money in the pursuit of helping others already doing so in the form of charity. Legislating for them to have to redirect their goodwill, forcing them to spend their money instead on Velodromes, the Theatres Trust or the salary of people working at the House of Lords Appointment Commission instead of causes that are generally close to their hearts is outrageous.

Outrageous would be expecting individual donors to make country wide assessments of societal need, coordinate donation patterns with all their fellow donors across the UK, while knowing that people would suffer if they got it wrong.
 
Yet when Jewish voters are leaving Labour in droves and the Chief Rabbi comes out in strong criticism of the party its still not enough.

But when a minority community with more electoral weight, the Indian community, made the first bit of noise about being upset about the Kashmir stance taken by Labour members, that stance was dropped like a stone.

It doesn't look good.

Problem is, it wasn't just an extreme group as Kaos seems to say, they are actually being investigated.

I said it before, and so I'll say it again, I'm astounded how quickly some on here have been to dismiss this. There's plenty of fecking smoke, what is everyone going to say if that investigation goes sour for them?
 
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. The trouble with this approach is how certain members of said affected groups weaponise claims of bigotry for their own disingenuous means.

Sure. But Maureen flippin' Lipman? You lose her, you've lost the argument.
 
Sure. But Maureen flippin' Lipman? You lose her, you've lost the argument.

Lipman was formerly a Labour Party supporter, but declared in October 2014, that she would no longer be voting Labour due to the party's support for recognition of Palestine.

See what I mean.
 
I was on a zero hours contract with an agency last year for about 6 months. Was ideal for me being at uni because I could be flexible when I could work and pick and choose which shifts to work. Definitely have their uses but sadly too many businesses have taken advantage of them. I know people who work in restaurants who do the same shifts every week and yet the company refuse to give them a proper contract.

I’d be against scrapping them completely, but there needs to be a reform of them to stop businesses abusing them as they are currently doing.

This is the main issue with these contracts. If the employee is fully committed to the business and turns up for the same shifts over 3-6 months then a proper contract with guaranteed hours should be offered. There is a clear difference between the mutual benefits employee and employer might experience like yourself when at Uni and the people relying on the job for a living/future and in a position where the rug can be pulled without warning.
 
Lipman was formerly a Labour Party supporter, but declared in October 2014, that she would no longer be voting Labour due to the party's support for recognition of Palestine.

See what I mean.
I do, but you don't.

Here's the source for the quote. She makes clear she supported a two state solution. She strongly objected to the timing for reasons she mentions in the article.
 
I do, but you don't.

Here's the source for the quote. She makes clear she supported a two state solution. She strongly objected to the timing for reasons she mentions in the article.
Don't want to open that can of worms here, but I'm going to simply question why declaring support for a Palestinian state is seen as incensing issues of anti-semitism, not least when the initiative was proposed by a Jewish party leader, inline with the sentiments of the international community.

The initial point was you can't simply and blindly adhere to the the notion that sentiments expressed by related group should be treated as objective gospel. Lipman clearly objects to the notion of Palestinian statehood, (and being supportive of a 'two-state' solution means nothing, its mere lip service even echoed by Israel's most unapologetic supporters), so its not hard to see why she might not approach this debate with a reasonable sense of objectitivty.
 
I do, but you don't.

Here's the source for the quote. She makes clear she supported a two state solution. She strongly objected to the timing for reasons she mentions in the article.

A lot of these anti-palestine racists say they support a 2-state solution in theory. It's just a cover that means feck all in practice. The timing will always be wrong for them for as long as there are still Palestinians in Palestine.
 
Don't want to open that can of worms here, but I'm going to simply question why declaring support for a Palestinian state is seen as incensing issues of anti-semitism, not least when the initiative was proposed by a Jewish party leader, inline with the sentiments of the international community.

The initial point was you can't simply and blindly adhere to the the notion that sentiments expressed by related group should be treated as objective gospel. Lipman clearly objects to the notion of Palestinian statehood, (and being supportive of a 'two-state' solution means nothing, its mere lip service even echoed by Israel's most unapologetic supporters), so its not hard to see why she might not approach this debate with a reasonable sense of objectitivty.
A lot of these anti-palestine racists say they support a 2-state solution in theory. It's just a cover that means feck all in practice. The timing will always be wrong for them for as long as there are still Palestinians in Palestine.

I'm sure what you both say is true, however you can't just assume that of everyone. If you do, then conversely you believe that anyone who isn't advocating getting rid of the state of Israel is covertly anti-Palestinian. You could just take what she is saying at face value.
 
I'm sure what you both say is true, however you can't just assume that of everyone. If you do, then conversely you believe that anyone who isn't advocating getting rid of the state of Israel is covertly anti-Palestinian. You could just take what she is saying at face value.

I'm not doing that. I don't think we should get rid of Israel either. I happen to think Maureen Lipman specifically is racist from reading and listening to what she writes and says.
 
I'm sure what you both say is true, however you can't just assume that of everyone. If you do, then conversely you believe that anyone who isn't advocating getting rid of the state of Israel is covertly anti-Palestinian. You could just take what she is saying at face value.
Except there’s no comparison there, believing Israel has a right to exist while supporting the idea of a Palestinian state (at any time) aren’t mutually exclusive positions to hold. The UN and European Union aren’t calling for Israel’s destruction for starters.

Im happy to consider anything said at face value, I just don’t buy this unspoken rule of it being gospel because it’s said by someone belonging to the same faith/gender/creed/association. People have other motivations and explanations of why they hold a certain view outside of their DNA.
 
I was on a zero hours contract with an agency last year for about 6 months. Was ideal for me being at uni because I could be flexible when I could work and pick and choose which shifts to work. Definitely have their uses but sadly too many businesses have taken advantage of them. I know people who work in restaurants who do the same shifts every week and yet the company refuse to give them a proper contract.

I’d be against scrapping them completely, but there needs to be a reform of them to stop businesses abusing them as they are currently doing.
Pretty much this.

I worked for a silver service agency as a student back in the early 90s, and it was a great way to earn whilst studying. I was also an adjunct lecturer for a while in the 00s, which was essentially zero hours and I would say more exploitative than the student gigs - universities take the mickey.

The idea of zero hours is actually good. It is just that the power imbalance is too far in favour of the employers. So rather than abolishing them, they should look instead to regulate how companies use them. For example, there could be contracts to ensure employers have to give sufficient notice of when they do or don't need you; perhaps even retention contracts, holiday/sickness pay as part of the hourly rate etc. Indeed, these are some of the things the universities union have been fighting for in the current dispute with universities.
 
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