Can anyone argue against this I wonder?
When people say this isn't Corbyn's fault, they must surely at least concede that this has also been pretty damning on their competence.
UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80
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Can anyone argue against this I wonder?
When people say this isn't Corbyn's fault, they must surely at least concede that this has also been pretty damning on their competence.
To 52% of the nation they see no reason to vote again having already decided what they wanted. Then you've got the other 10-20% that want it over and done with and think it'll be done within a year.
Ok, let's take your two examples.
2017 - a hung parliament when going up against the most popular political leader since Thatcher and Blair was an electoral success for Labour and a much better result than expected.
2015 - Ed Miliband losing when leading a centre party vs Cameron leading a centre-right party, so not particularly relevant
Do I think this result will be all down to Brexit? Absolutely not. There are a lot of factors and a full inquest is needed once all of the results and data is in.
Brexit is proving to be by far the most significant factor, and I really don't think you can look at it any other way.
Other factors in no particular order appear to be:
- failure to communicate to historic Labour voters a message other than Brexit
- taking Labour heartlands for granted and fixating on shoring up remainer seats in big cities instead
- Corbyn's unpopularity
- a pretty anaemic election campaign
- a manifesto that is generally popular, but very difficult to boil down into a few key sentences
- Corbyn being too nice, and his desire to go high when the other side goes low - in hindsight it appears this electoral campaign would have benefited from a more aggressive, less statesmanlike leader
- media
- left/remain vote being split and lacking the voting discipline of the Tory party (or the electoral manoeuvrings of the Brexit Party)
Clearly Corbyn will need to go before the next election, and Labour have a lot of lessons to learn from this defeat. However, losing the gains of the Corbyn-era would be disasterous. Whether this is the shifting of the Overton Window on key policies like austerity, climate change and nationalisation, or the mobilisation of the largest grassroots campaign group in the country. These are the few positives for Labour that we will see from these results tonight, and we should recognise that.
Arron Banks was a step too far for me tonight. I’m off to bed, hopefully the Exit polls were worst case scenario and there’s some respite in the massacre.
wow
In the last 9/10 years of Tory government, hospital beds (in England) have gone from 300,000 to 150,000. Waiting lists are through the roof, cancer action has decreased in efficiency and nowhere is achieving these arbitrary 90% A+E 4hr targets.
I have no clue what the problems you've had with the NHS have been, and it's not my business to know, but to the majority of people, the repercussions that the Tories have had on it are significant. There are problems that neither party can fix, but on a whole, the NHS is going down the drain especially with the gradual sell off to private companies which has gone relatively under the radar as they are rarely reported. I expect this to increase in brazenness. By the time anyone gets up in arms about it? Too late.
In my position, I'm in the fortunate position to earn a decent amount of money if areas are privatised off within the health service. However, I've been raised in the NHS, I've worked in the NHS and I love what we have here, and I'll fight against anyone trying to change what we have on a whole.
Perhaps it's not only Clinton that's the problem
EALING NORTH
Lab Hold
CAERPHILLY
Lab Hold - Majority 6833
Swing 6.2% from Lab to Con
GATESHEAD
Lab Hold
MAKERFIELD
Lab Hold
RAYLEIGH & WICKFORD
Con Hold
LEICESTER SOUTH
Lab Hold
Lab Hold
CAERPHILLY
Lab Hold - Majority 6833
Swing 6.2% from Lab to Con
GATESHEAD
Lab Hold
MAKERFIELD
Lab Hold
RAYLEIGH & WICKFORD
Con Hold
LEICESTER SOUTH
Lab Hold
Trying to collect my thoughts.
We deserve everything we get as a nation. It's hard not to feel pessimistic. Which direction do we go in? If the country doesn't have empathy at the front of its political thinking then there's nothing to be done. Society and community withered a while ago and this will be the end of them both. If the appetite to complete Brexit is so strong that we really want to to close ourselves off from the world and shut our doors to everyone else on a grand scale then that attitude must be happening on a smaller scale as well. The hopelessness has brought on a feeling of numbness. The one sliver of hope I have for the future is that there might well be a cross-party alliance forming against them that'll come for them in 2024, or that Scotland give it another go and give us somewhere to run. That really is all I can think of.
I think this is what it's taken to beat me into the ground. I'm not even angry about this because I can't find it within me to feel anything other than grim acceptance and disappointment at what this country proves itself to be time and time again. I feel like this might permanently change me. I've always known there were millions of Tories in this country but I assumed they lived in areas I never visited, and that they were people I'd never encounter on a regular basis. Now there's no way I can look at anyone in the street and not wonder if they put their cross in that fecking box. I'm too tired to stay up any longer. Right now, I can't foresee a situation where the left doesn't just rip itself to shreds. It's done. We had a chance for a while but the country don't want us. Brexit caused a divide that sent the country completely off the edge. There's no coming back from it. A gap in society that quietly laid dormant for an entire generation was ripped wide open and the Labour vote has fallen into it.
The best thing we can do now is abandon any ambitions we had about making left-wing politics a viable option for Westminster and try our best to make sure our local communities can be rebuilt through volunteering. The quiet unity against the ruling class has to carry on.
We deserve everything we get as a nation. It's hard not to feel pessimistic. Which direction do we go in? If the country doesn't have empathy at the front of its political thinking then there's nothing to be done. Society and community withered a while ago and this will be the end of them both. If the appetite to complete Brexit is so strong that we really want to to close ourselves off from the world and shut our doors to everyone else on a grand scale then that attitude must be happening on a smaller scale as well. The hopelessness has brought on a feeling of numbness. The one sliver of hope I have for the future is that there might well be a cross-party alliance forming against them that'll come for them in 2024, or that Scotland give it another go and give us somewhere to run. That really is all I can think of.
I think this is what it's taken to beat me into the ground. I'm not even angry about this because I can't find it within me to feel anything other than grim acceptance and disappointment at what this country proves itself to be time and time again. I feel like this might permanently change me. I've always known there were millions of Tories in this country but I assumed they lived in areas I never visited, and that they were people I'd never encounter on a regular basis. Now there's no way I can look at anyone in the street and not wonder if they put their cross in that fecking box. I'm too tired to stay up any longer. Right now, I can't foresee a situation where the left doesn't just rip itself to shreds. It's done. We had a chance for a while but the country don't want us. Brexit caused a divide that sent the country completely off the edge. There's no coming back from it. A gap in society that quietly laid dormant for an entire generation was ripped wide open and the Labour vote has fallen into it.
The best thing we can do now is abandon any ambitions we had about making left-wing politics a viable option for Westminster and try our best to make sure our local communities can be rebuilt through volunteering. The quiet unity against the ruling class has to carry on.
Peterborough gain for the Tories
Am I misreading this or are we calling Theresa May a popular political leader? If so I beg to differ!
That youthquake turnout doesn't seem to have manifested. And if it has it will probably be seen as in the seats already pro-Labour pro-Remain.
Conservatives gain Vale of Clwyd from Labour
Might be what made them lose by a large margin. I know Corbyn himself is said to be the main problem but I see Labour voters also dropping away, probably Brexit Labour voters who don't want to give remain a second chance so you force their hand by putting remain back on the table.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Why does that way of thinking just go out the window when results of referendums and elections don't go the way people wanted?
Why does that way of thinking just go out the window when results of referendums and elections don't go the way people wanted?
(Sorry to snip, but the new quote function is rubbish)
On your gains:
Austerity - yes, this was a good message. They took this way too far to the extent people found it unrealistic.
Climate change - there have been no gains on this, the Tories will carry on largely ignoring it.
Nationalisation - no gains, people tend to say "yeah why not" in polls but doesn't motivate them to vote for a party an iota.
Mobilisation - They're on track to get fewer seats than Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown. If this was a benefit, I dread to think how bad it would've been if it was just on the other issues.
Labour take Putney! Get in!
ANGUS
SNP GAIN from Con
WREXHAM
Con GAIN from Lab
SNP GAIN from Con
WREXHAM
Con GAIN from Lab
Christ this Lavery bloke is the most Northern guy I've ever heard.
It's easy to forget because her time in office ended in disaster, but for most of 2017 May had the highest approval ratings of any leader since polling records began recording it in the 1970s. Corbyn on the other hand was incredibly unpopular until a massive surge during the election campaign.
It's one of the main reasons May called a general election, because she assumed it was a sure bet to win a Tory majority large enough to deliver Brexit.
If your vote can literally contribute to killing thousands of people, then don’t expect people to defend it for you.
I'm pretty depressed about this. It's just sad to see so many people being tricked into voting against their own interest. Now I'm not saying that's the case for everybody, but there's no way you can tell me that a majority of people in the country benefit from a Boris and Conservative led party and what they stand for.
88% of Conservative ads were found to be misleading for God's sake. Alas nothing is done about it anyway and they can get away with it. In this age of social media I fear that cynical political strategists and the corporate media have just become too good at manipulating democratic elections the way they want. The truth is people are very easily influenced and they've figured out exactly what buttons to press and which knobs to twist. Trump winning re-election will be there magnum opus.
88% of Conservative ads were found to be misleading for God's sake. Alas nothing is done about it anyway and they can get away with it. In this age of social media I fear that cynical political strategists and the corporate media have just become too good at manipulating democratic elections the way they want. The truth is people are very easily influenced and they've figured out exactly what buttons to press and which knobs to twist. Trump winning re-election will be there magnum opus.
comeback starts now for Labour
What the feck are you on about? You’re arguing on a forum and people are disagreeing with you. There’s no freedom of speech angle unless you’re suggesting that you should be free to make as many incoherent statements as you want without push back.
Come up to Scotland folks, we aren’t thick cnuts up here.
Title change to England fecks itself
Britain's fecked. All the opportunity in the world to turn things around, but looks like that won't be happening, shame.
Just had a long conversation with my partner. Plan is to move from England to Edinburgh and hope for the best.
Good post. Now do me a favour and try to see what I'm saying, if I can word it right that is
I'm not advocating for a return to new labour and all that, you guys just assume that's the go to because it's all left and right. That's literally all you lot care about right now, and that's not without reason.
However, regardless of brexit, Labour is split and Corbyn has failed to hold them together. Ed failed too. How much longer do you allow these failures before change is needed? You are we shouldn't lost what Corbyn has built, but we kind of have tonight no? This is an absolute humiliation. I said the other day we need a stronger speaker who can convey his core beliefs better, people kept saying we shouldn't have to have that, I said tonight that they should consider looking to move in slightly if only to claw back the floaters, I have been told if the right won't move why should we? (And also that I should vote Tory
). There basically seems no ideas or desire to even contemplating thought on anything, and when suggested we do, you guys instantly go to worst case scenario as if I'm suggesting you give up all you believe just because I'm telling you, and I am telling you, that this will keep happening over and fecking over until Labour get their act together.What gets me is you keep saying the centre is dead, but what about all those floating voters. Of which I'm one? I'm not a true centrist at all, but I'm also not represented. It's flat out wrong to suggest everyone is now left or right and that's it, it's doing exactly what Labour have clearly done all through this campaign, completely missread the situation.
We need to stop these excuses, pick ourselves up and the Labour party need to find some way to pull itself together behind a real leader. And for god's sake, stop ignoring everyone and everything else and step outside the bubble and realise there's a lot more to this than brexit.
If I'm wrong to think all that, so be it. But at the end of the day, we keep losing and now extremely badly. I can't see how staying exactly as we are is going to change anything. Not in today's climate that's for sure.
Or even more accurately 'England fecks everyone else. Again'.
It sounds like you don't understand the quote.
Jess Phillips going off live now. Can't say I disagree with most of what she's said about the loss.
Really depressing that already you can get away with comments like this like it has no impact for muslim women in this country.
Yeah the union is done now we want out of this mess England is a disgrace.
It's difficult to respond to this as you haven't actually stated your position.How can you write such a pile of rubbish when your entire thesis is being thrashed in front of you on live TV?
You remind me of Saeed al-Sahhaf, better known as Bagdad Bob or Comical Ali.
Its utter delusion!
My claim is that there's no evidence to suggest moving to the centre in this election would have resulted in a better performance for Labour.
It's a counter-factual so I'm not expecting you to completely prove it, but as I've said previously the predicted disaster for the Lib Dems along with Brexit and global populism / global Trumpism all point to the fact that the centre is not the panacea a lot of pundits will no doubt claim it is tomorrow.
This guy is having a mare.
I haven't made any incoherent statements.
I guess we will have to disagree, I've read too much philosophy to give any credence to an ideology that isn't rooted in the axioms of the left, yet we can agree the campaign and the last 2 years have been a disaster.
Thurrock hold for the Tories
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