UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%
  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%
  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%
  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%
  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%

  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
You're assuming Labour are held to the same standard. Laura K would have personally knocked on every door telling everyone Corbyn which chicken if he hadn't turned up.

Sure, that double standards are par for the course. It's a question of which set of neagtive headlines is worse I guess.


I've referenced it before about the anti-semitism, but the way Bernie was covered in 2015/16 really changed my mind on all this. If anyone is interested, this is a very detailed and long summary of how the press deals with a challenge - https://harpers.org/archive/2016/11/swat-team-2/
The rolling barrage against him began during the weeks before the Iowa caucuses, when it first dawned on Washington that the Vermonter might have a chance of winning. And so a January 20 editorial headlined level with us, mr. sanders decried his “lack of political realism” and noted with a certain amount of fury that Sanders had no plans for “deficit reduction” or for dealing with Social Security spending—standard Post signifiers for seriousness. That same day, Catherine Rampell insisted that the repeal of Glass–Steagall “had nothing to do with the 2008 financial crisis,” and that those populists who pined for the old system of bank regulation were just revealing “the depths of their ignorance.”3

The next morning, Charles Lane piled on with an essay ridiculing Sanders’s idea that there was a “billionaire class” that supported conservative causes. Many billionaires, Lane pointed out, are actually pretty liberal on social issues. “Reviewing this history,” he harrumphed, “you could almost get the impression billionaires have done more to advance progressive causes than Bernie Sanders has.”

On January 27, with the Iowa caucuses just days away, Dana Milbank nailed it with a headline: nominating sanders would be insane. After promising that he adored the Vermont senator, he cautioned his readers that “socialists don’t win national elections in the United States.” The next day, the paper’s editorial board chimed in with a campaign full of fiction, in which they branded Sanders as a kind of flimflam artist: “Mr. Sanders is not a brave truth-teller. He is a politician selling his own brand of fiction to a slice of the country that eagerly wants to buy it.”

Stung by the Post’s trolling, Bernie Sanders fired back—which in turn allowed no fewer than three of the paper’s writers to report on the conflict between the candidate and their employer as a bona fide news item. Sensing weakness, the editorial board came back the next morning with yet another kidney punch, this one headlined the real problem with mr. sanders. By now, you can guess what that problem was: his ideas weren’t practical, and besides, he still had “no plausible plan for plugging looming deficits as the population ages.”

Actually, that was only one of two editorials to appear on January 29 berating Sanders. The other sideswiped the senator in the course of settling a question of history, evidently one of the paper’s regular duties. After the previous week’s lesson about GlassSteagall, the editorial board now instructed politicians to stop reviling tarp—i.e., the Wall Street bailouts with which the Bush and Obama Administrations tried to halt the financial crisis. The bailouts had been controversial, the paper acknowledged, but they were also bipartisan, and opposing or questioning them in the Sanders manner was hereby declared anathema. After all, the editorial board intoned:
Contrary to much rhetoric, Wall Street banks and bankers still took losses and suffered upheaval, despite the bailout—but TARP helped limit the collateral damage that Main Street suffered from all of that. If not for the ingenuity of the executive branch officials who designed and carried out the program, and the responsibility of the legislators who approved it, the United States would be in much worse shape economically.

As a brief history of the financial crisis and the bailout, this is absurd. It is true that bailing out Wall Street was probably better than doing absolutely nothing, but saying this ignores the many other options that were available to public officials had they shown any real ingenuity in holding institutions accountable. All the Wall Street banks that existed at the time of TARP are flourishing to this day, since the government moved heaven and earth to spare them the consequences of the toxic securities they had issued and the lousy mortgage bets they made. The big banks were “made whole,” as the saying goes. Main Street banks, meanwhile, died off by the hundreds in 2009 and 2010. And average home owners, of course, got no comparable bailout. Instead, Main Street America saw trillions in household wealth disappear; it entered into a prolonged recession, with towering unemployment, increasing inequality, and other effects that linger to this day. There has never been a TARP for the rest of us.

Charles Krauthammer went into action on January 29, too, cautioning the Democrats that they “would be risking a November electoral disaster of historic dimensions” should they nominate Sanders—cynical advice that seems even more poisonous today, as scandal after scandal engulfs the Democratic candidate that so many Post pundits favored. Ruth Marcus brought the hammer down two days later, marveling at the folly of voters who thought the Vermont senator could achieve any of the things he aimed for. Had they forgotten “Obama’s excruciating experience with congressional Republicans”? The Iowa caucuses came the next day, and Stephen Stromberg was at the keyboard to identify the “three delusions” that supposedly animated the campaigns of Sanders and the Republican Ted Cruz alike. Namely: they had abandoned the “center,” they believed that things were bad in the United States, and they perceived an epidemic of corruption—in Sanders’s case, corruption via billionaires and campaign contributions. Delusions all.

And then, mirabile dictu, the Post ran an op-ed bearing the headline the case for bernie sanders (in iowa). It was not an endorsement of Sanders, of course (“This is not an endorsement of Sanders,” its author wrote), but it did favor the idea of a sustained conversation among Democrats. The people of Iowa “must make sure” that the battle between Clinton and Sanders continued. It was the best the Post could do, I suppose, before reverting to its customary position.

On and on it went, for month after month, a steady drumbeat of denunciation. The paper hit every possible anti-Sanders note, from the driest kind of math-based policy reproach to the lowest sort of nerd-shaming—from his inexcusable failure to embrace taxes on soda pop to his awkward gesticulating during a debate with Hillary Clinton (“an unrelenting hand jive,” wrote Post dance critic Sarah L. Kaufman, “that was missing only an upright bass and a plunky piano”).

The paper’s piling-up of the senator’s faults grew increasingly long and complicated. Soon after Sanders won the New Hampshire primary, the editorial board denounced him and Trump both as “unacceptable leaders” who proposed “simple-sounding” solutions. Sanders used the plutocracy as a “convenient scapegoat.” He was hostile to nuclear power. He didn’t have a specific recipe for breaking up the big banks. He attacked trade deals with “bogus numbers that defy the overwhelming consensus among economists.” This last charge was a particular favorite of Post pundits: David Ignatius and Charles Lane both scolded the candidate for putting prosperity at risk by threatening our trade deals. Meanwhile, Charles Krauthammer grew so despondent over the meager 2016 options that he actually pined for the lost days of the Bill Clinton presidency, when America was tough on crime, when welfare was being reformed, and when free trade was accorded its proper respect.

Ah, but none of this was to imply that Bernie Sanders, flouter of economic consensus, was a friend to the working class. Here too he was written off as a failure. Instead of encouraging the lowly to work hard and get “prepared for the new economy,” moaned Michael Gerson, the senator was merely offering them goodies—free health care and college—in the manner of outmoded “20th century liberalism.” Others took offense at Sanders’s health-care plan because it envisioned something beyond Obamacare, which had been won at such great cost.

This brings us to the question of qualifications, a non-issue that nevertheless caused enormous alarm among the punditry for a good part of April. Columnist after columnist and blogger after blogger offered judgments on how ridiculous, how very unjustified it was for Sanders to suggest Clinton wasn’t qualified for the presidency, and whether or not Clinton hadn’t started the whole thing first by implying Sanders wasn’t qualified, and whether she was right when she did or didn’t make that accusation. Reporters got into the act, too, wringing their hands over the lamentable “tone” of the primary contest and wondering what it portended for November. Maybe you’ve forgotten about this pointless roundelay, but believe me, it happened; acres of trees fell so that every breathless minute of it could be documented.

Then there was Sanders’s supposed tin ear for racial issues. Jonathan Capehart (a blogger, op-ed writer, and member of the paper’s editorial board) described the senator as a candidate with limited appeal among black voters, who had trouble talking “about issues of race outside of the confines of class and poverty” and was certainly no heir to Barack Obama. Sanders was conducting a “magic-wand campaign,” Capehart insisted on another occasion, since his voting-reform proposals would never be carried out. Even the inspiring story of the senator’s salad days in the civil-rights movement turned out to be tainted once Capehart started sleuthing. In February, the columnist examined a famous photograph from a 1962 protest and declared that the person in the picture wasn’t Sanders at all. Even when the photographer who took the image told Capehart that it was indeed Sanders, the Post grandee refused to apologize, fudging the issue with bromides: “This is a story where memory and historical certitude clash.” Clearly Sanders is someone to whom the ordinary courtesies of journalism do not apply.

Extra credit is due to Dana Milbank, one of the paper’s cleverest columnists, who kept varying his angle of attack. In February, he name-checked the Bernie Bros—socialist cyberbullies who were turning comment sections into pens of collectivist terror. In March, Milbank assured readers that Democrats were too “satisfied” to sign up with a rebel like Sanders. In April, he lamented Sanders’s stand on trade on the grounds that it was similar to Trump’s and that it would be hard on poor countries. In May, Milbank said he thought it was just awful the way frustrated Sanders supporters cursed and “threw chairs” at the Nevada Democratic convention—and something close to treachery when Sanders failed to rebuke those supporters afterward.4 “It is no longer accurate to say Sanders is campaigning against Clinton, who has essentially locked up the nomination,” the columnist warned on the occasion of the supposed chair-throwing. “The Vermont socialist is now running against the Democratic Party. And that’s excellent news for one Donald J. Trump.”
 
As I've always suspected, the I hate Brexit but not as much as poor people Tory vote will see them a majority.
I'm not so sure.

I know faith in the polls has been shot to pieces recently, but even ignoring that, this is an incredibly difficult election to call.

For all of the 'Labour will lose seats in leave heartlands as Brexiteers desert them' stories driven by recent polling data, that's still a mostly unsubstantiated claim. We don't know if Brexiteers in these seats voted Labour in 2017 or whether they were mostly UKIP/Tory voters in 2017 anyway. As such the direct 'loss' for Labour is guesswork.

Nevertheless, some polls are now putting the Tories and Labour within the margin of error (ICM). Add to this the fact that the massive poll boost given to the Tories by the Brexit Party collapse seems to have now stagnated, and Labour has more 'potential gains' in the next week if they can win over Lib Dems and centrist remainers.

My own opinion is that we'll be left with another hung parliament (hopefully with Labour being the largest party), but I wouldn't put any money on the outcome either way as there are far too many variables.

The odds are certainly stacked against Labour, from the December election hurting Labour's superior ground game, to the sycophantic media coverage of Johnson, to the non-stop attacks on Corbyn and the establishment pushback to their policies. However, The way Johnson has handled the London bridge attack appears to have cost him centrist support, and we know what an unpredictable liability Trump can be, even to his closest allies.

That all adds up to an election which is still all to play for, and the next 8 days might make all of the difference.
 
I'm not so sure.

I know faith in the polls has been shot to pieces recently, but even ignoring that, this is an incredibly difficult election to call.

For all of the 'Labour will lose seats in leave heartlands as Brexiteers desert them' stories driven by recent polling data, that's still a mostly unsubstantiated claim. We don't know if Brexiteers in these seats voted Labour in 2017 or whether they were mostly UKIP/Tory voters in 2017 anyway. As such the direct 'loss' for Labour is guesswork.

Nevertheless, some polls are now putting the Tories and Labour within the margin of error (ICM). Add to this the fact that the massive poll boost given to the Tories by the Brexit Party collapse seems to have now stagnated, and Labour has more 'potential gains' in the next week if they can win over Lib Dems and centrist remainers.

My own opinion is that we'll be left with another hung parliament (hopefully with Labour being the largest party), but I wouldn't put any money on the outcome either way as there are far too many variables.

The odds are certainly stacked against Labour, from the December election hurting Labour's superior ground game, to the sycophantic media coverage of Johnson, to the non-stop attacks on Corbyn and the establishment pushback to their policies. However, The way Johnson has handled the London bridge attack appears to have cost him centrist support, and we know what an unpredictable liability Trump can be, even to his closest allies.

That all adds up to an election which is still all to play for, and the next 8 days might make all of the difference.

https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/labours-electoral-dilemma/#.XarA7mZ7n8C

"a clear majority of Labour voters supported remain (68%)"

"in Labour seats where there was a Leave majority, 60% of Labour voters voted to Remain in 2016 compared to 76% in Remain seats. In other words while unsurprisingly there were more Labour leave voters in leave seats, on average there was still a substantial Remain majority. Even in those with a Leave vote of greater than 60%, a clear majority (57%) of Labour voters voted Remain in 2016. "
 
Based on polling, there's a ~8% loyalty gap between the Tories and Labour. The Tories are carrying 80-85% of their 2017 vote, with ~2-3% defection to Labour and <8% to the Libs, while Labour is carrying 72-78% of their 2017 vote with ~8-10% defection straight to the Tories and a smaller number to the Libs. I can only imagine those voters (who seem to be crucial) are Leave voters.
[Lib loyalty is in the low 70s and is split equally between the big 2 parties].
 
It’s so incredibly frustrating watching people spout such utter untruths. The wealthy people will be worse off after Brexit and the poorer will be better for it.


It takes incredible skill to convince people this is the case. You ask yourselves why the party that has imposed a decade of austerity are about to get another five year mandate, this is your answer. Ultimately, the electorate are at fault. It is your responsibility to educate yourself. No one is doing it for you.
 
No great escape: Tory scales bins and fence to exit climate hustings

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...fence-and-bins-to-exit-climate-hustings-lewes

:lol:

The teenager, who did not wish to be named, said: “I left about an hour early and about half an hour after she [Bikson] left the stage. I came outside and I was about to cycle off and she was behind the gate next to our school canteen which was locked and said, ‘excuse me, can you help me?’ She sounded quite desperate. I said the only way back out is through the auditorium and she said she didn’t want to go back through the auditorium because of everyone. She said ‘they all despise me … and they don’t want me to go back in there’.”

Explaining that she felt sorry for the stranded politician, the teenager added: “I went back into the canteen to try and open the door from the inside [allowing her a route of escape] but it was locked. Then I got a caretaker. I said a caretaker is coming but she said, ‘don’t worry, I’ll just climb over the gate’. And she got up on the school bins and climbed over the gate. She’d been out there for a while.”
 
27 days of train strikes around here - not sure anyone can justify that at this time of year
Of course they can if they are getting rid of train/platform guards. People are striking about losing their jobs and the reduction of safety on trains. It's all on the unions nothing about the greedy directors trying to get an extra million in Christmas bonuses or what ever the reason is for the job/safety cuts.
 
Was a very interring conversation for me as it confirmed everything I've thought: that Corbyn has hijacked the Labour party in much the same way as Johnson has done in the Conservatives. And that Labour will not get re-elected until someone unifies the left and left centrist flanks.
This is a given.
 
So sick of traditional Labour voters telling me Corbyn is 'unelectable' so they won't be voting for him. It's the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy, and however they perceive the issues with his leadership qualities, they pale in comparison to the actual lying fecking idiot we have currently serving as Prime Minister.
 
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So sick of traditional Labour voters telling me Corbyn is 'unelectable' so they won't be voting for him. It's the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy, and however they perceive the issues with his leadership qualities, the pale in comparison to the actual lying fecking idiot we have currently serving as Prime Minister.

This is your opinion though, and obviously a lot of people disagree. To change their minds you've got to engage, not just say the other guy is worse.

I don't like either of them, and currently think I won't vote for either. I would prefer Johnson to Corbyn though.
 
So sick of traditional Labour voters telling me Corbyn is 'unelectable' so they won't be voting for him. It's the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy, and however they perceive the issues with his leadership qualities, the pale in comparison to the actual lying fecking idiot we have currently serving as Prime Minister.

Yes heard the same myself. When pushed on why exactly they're never able to given a reason that doesn't sound like it's been ripped from the front page of the tabloid press either.
 
It takes incredible skill to convince people this is the case. You ask yourselves why the party that has imposed a decade of austerity are about to get another five year mandate, this is your answer. Ultimately, the electorate are at fault. It is your responsibility to educate yourself. No one is doing it for you.
I feel your frustration too but I don't think the mentality of blaming the ignorant for being ignorant will get us anywhere. It's an education and a regulatory issue. People need to be given the tools to better process and interpret information, ideally from a young age. Promote healthy scepticism and critical thinking or clamp down on the manipulation.
 
So sick of traditional Labour voters telling me Corbyn is 'unelectable' so they won't be voting for him. It's the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy, and however they perceive the issues with his leadership qualities, the pale in comparison to the actual lying fecking idiot we have currently serving as Prime Minister.

The level a lot if not most people engage with politics is simple statements they hear or read and parrot. They can't be bothered or have no interest in looking at anything beyond that.

It took a long time before those same people learned to stop saying "Labour caused the crash" or that they "spent all the money" and the best of all the comparisons to a household budget.

The Tories campaign as if people are stupid for a very good reason.
 
I feel your frustration too but I don't think the mentality of blaming the ignorant for being ignorant will get us anywhere. It's an education and a regulatory issue. People need to be given the tools to better process and interpret information, ideally from a young age. Promote healthy scepticism and critical thinking or clamp down on the manipulation.
A lot of ignorant people are just lazy(politically). What tools do you talk about?
 
Ultimately, the electorate are at fault

Really? Who would that be then, I.e. those who are at 'fault';

Those who could not be 'bothered to vote?
Those who chose not to vote deliberately/or as some sort of protest (non-vote)?
Those who voted for someone they didn't like, to prevent someone they liked less, getting elected?
Those who voted for the candidate and/or party that they preferred, even when they knew it would allow the party and/or leader they hated to win?
Those who voted without reading through all the Party Manifesto's?
Those who voted how their mates/wife/husband had told them to?
Those who voted because the candidate they chose, 'looked nice/honest/trustworthy/etc?'
Those who put a tick rather than an X on the ballot paper and invalidated their vote?
Those who voted mistakenly for the wrong candidate and only realised it when they came out of the polling station?
or perhaps;
Those who voted against the party with the political leanings you agree with?

The electorate are only 'at fault', when the result goes against the losers wishes, ask those who voted remain!
 
So sick of traditional Labour voters telling me Corbyn is 'unelectable' so they won't be voting for him. It's the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy, and however they perceive the issues with his leadership qualities, the pale in comparison to the actual lying fecking idiot we have currently serving as Prime Minister.
Exactly. You have to choose the lesser of 2 evils.
 
The level a lot if not most people engage with politics is simple statements they hear or read and parrot. They can't be bothered or have no interest in looking at anything beyond that.

It took a long time before those same people learned to stop saying "Labour caused the crash" or that they "spent all the money" and the best of all the comparisons to a household budget.

The Tories campaign as if people are stupid for a very good reason.

:lol:

As opposed to the Labour campaign to promise free everything because they know their target voters don't care/don't understand/dont know that it all has to be paid for somehow.

I wait to hear the qualifications you possess that allow you to see what nobody else can. Or are you just another 20 something who thinks they know everything?
 
It takes incredible skill to convince people this is the case. You ask yourselves why the party that has imposed a decade of austerity are about to get another five year mandate, this is your answer. Ultimately, the electorate are at fault. It is your responsibility to educate yourself. No one is doing it for you.
I mean, in reality, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Keeping people undereducated and their communities underfunded while pumping them full of propaganda is part of the problem. The other part of the problem is like you say, their sheer reluctance to research anything in depth and end up regurgitating Tory sound bites any time you try to engage them in debate.
 
This is your opinion though, and obviously a lot of people disagree. To change their minds you've got to engage, not just say the other guy is worse.

I don't like either of them, and currently think I won't vote for either. I would prefer Johnson to Corbyn though.
The trouble is that’s often a dead end too. It’s excruciatingly frustrating seeing voters unable to provide a reason for Corbyn being deemed ‘untrustworthy’, despite the fact his opponent is objectively lying through his teeth on a daily basis. The whole Brexit factor has also annoyingly muddied the waters for any form of constructive debate - a large chunk of the electorate have bought into this fallacy that Brexit is this catch all silver bullet that will remedy any concerns they have over the economy, jobs, public services and security. It’s hard to divert away from that narrative if they’ve stubbornly bought into it.

Out of interest why do you prefer Johnson over Corbyn?
 
:lol:

As opposed to the Labour campaign to promise free everything because they know their target voters don't care/don't understand/dont know that it all has to be paid for somehow.

I wait to hear the qualifications you possess that allow you to see what nobody else can. Or are you just another 20 something who thinks they know everything?
Labour have costed their manifesto pledges. Whether or not you think they’re feasible is your own opinion, but it’s certainly a more tangible roadmap than simply promising that the Brexit fairy will solve all your problems, which has pretty much been the entire campaign mantra for the Tories.
 
Guys if you don't believe in the Brexit fairy then it can never be real.
 
So sick of traditional Labour voters telling me Corbyn is 'unelectable' so they won't be voting for him. It's the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy, and however they perceive the issues with his leadership qualities, the pale in comparison to the actual lying fecking idiot we have currently serving as Prime Minister.
Yes, but Johnson is perceived as posh, and there's still a bizarre deference to people who have plummy accents and say "girly swot". If Johnson had a Brummy or Scouse accent, people wouldn't see him in the same way at all.
 
Labour have costed their manifesto pledges. Whether or not you think they’re feasible is your own opinion, but it’s certainly a more tangible roadmap than simply promising that the Brexit fairy will solve all your problems, which has pretty much been the entire campaign mantra for the Tories.

'Costed' is one word for it. All I see from Corbyn is some vague promise that he will negotiate a new and fantastic EU deal, despite being told repeatedly that the EU wont do this, and some unrealistic and quite ridiculous taxation revenue claims to support the largest spending plans most of us have ever seen. If, as pretty much every economic expert in the country predicts, it doesn't work as planned, we will be paying for it figuratively and literally for the rest of our lives.

Labour play all the same tricks and games the Tories do. In an echo chamber you just don't see it.
 
A fine place to escape inequality, crime, political tension and racial tension.

Oh, I am under no illusions what it's like there.

It's more to do with the experience of living and working abroad, and obviously my London wage will go a lot further in Cape Town.
 
I don't like either of them, and currently think I won't vote for either. I would prefer Johnson to Corbyn though.
Johnson is genuinely cruel, and is focused entirely on wealth and power. Corbyn is indecisive and arguably an incompetent leader (as is Johnson), but is well intentioned. The two are eons apart in terms of who they are and what they represent.
 
It bothers me that the Labour diehards best push is that Corbyn in the lesser of two evils.

I mean sure, he is and we should all vote labour, but surely if you were all that enlightened you would realise that's not actually going to win power and in actual fact we should expect more from the major opposition? We should expect a party that offers more than that, and also one equipped to tackle the most obvious ploys like the tories pull?

It's all well and good making excuses for Corbyn's ability to go toe to toe, it's all well and good blaming the media in all forms, but why aren't they fighting that fight then? The moral highground ends with a Tory government and Brexit.
 
It bothers me that the Labour diehards best push is that Corbyn in the lesser of two evils.

I mean sure, he is and we should all vote labour, but surely if you were all that enlightened you would realise that's not actually going to win power and in actual fact we should expect more from the major opposition? We should expect a party that offers more than that, and also one equipped to tackle the most obvious ploys like the tories pull?

It's all well and good making excuses for Corbyn's ability to go toe to toe, it's all well and good blaming the media in all forms, but why aren't they fighting that fight then? The moral highground ends with a Tory government and Brexit.

It's an easier argument to make, when the entire media narrative, and therefore the lens that most people see Corbyn through, has been relentlessly negative, and the Tories basically have propaganda organisations representing them as the country's biggest news outlets.

I think Corbyn is great, if flawed, is one of the few MPs that has the right idea about what this country needs, has been on the right side of history more often than most blah blah blah. But even for me, when I'm talking to my Dad who says he just can't trust the man, it's easier for me to make the argument that you would be letting in someone who is objectively less trustworthy, than to try and convince my Dad that he should trust Corbyn more.

You don't know how tiring it is being a Corbyn supporter. It's not about moral highground, it's because I really believe that he's the best option for the country right now, but I don't have the energy to deal with the gish gallop of criticisms. The Twitter thread that was posted earlier by @Raven says it all really - so many of Corbyn's high profile critics have contradicted themselves whilst falling over themselves to criticise the man. And it's working, unfortunately.
 
:lol:

As opposed to the Labour campaign to promise free everything because they know their target voters don't care/don't understand/dont know that it all has to be paid for somehow.

I wait to hear the qualifications you possess that allow you to see what nobody else can. Or are you just another 20 something who thinks they know everything?
The arrogance in this post is fairly impressive.
 
A lot of ignorant people are just lazy(politically). What tools do you talk about?
True, maybe I'm too naive / hopeful.
But education could also be used to improve political engagement - e.g. I had no political education growing up. It would need to be done in a balanced way combined with the learning I previously described.
 
It's an easier argument to make, when the entire media narrative, and therefore the lens that most people see Corbyn through, has been relentlessly negative, and the Tories basically have propaganda organisations representing them as the country's biggest news outlets.

I think Corbyn is great, if flawed, is one of the few MPs that has the right idea about what this country needs, has been on the right side of history more often than most blah blah blah. But even for me, when I'm talking to my Dad who says he just can't trust the man, it's easier for me to make the argument that you would be letting in someone who is objectively less trustworthy, than to try and convince my Dad that he should trust Corbyn more.

You don't know how tiring it is being a Corbyn supporter. It's not about moral highground, it's because I really believe that he's the best option for the country right now, but I don't have the energy to deal with the gish gallop of criticisms. The Twitter thread that was posted earlier by @Raven says it all really - so many of Corbyn's high profile critics have contradicted themselves whilst falling over themselves to criticise the man. And it's working, unfortunately.

But the point is the Labour leader needs to be better and stronger. Someone who can fight the real fight, not do just alright in situations like the head to heads. He's had so many chances, in his own words, yet at best just held ground.

I'm surrounded by people who should be voting Labour but are not, and mostly because of the media shit. However, can you honestly tell me he's doing his best in dealing with that? I mean you know the problem here, I do, we all do. And yet it's still being used as an excuse.

Instead of fecking moaning about the coverage they receieve, they should be reversing it. Especially online where you can much easier. The question is, just like last election, why are we in exactly the same position? Why are we already making the same excuses?

Labour never learn. And I don't think I'm being unfair in questioning why. Why, in the face of all this shambolic government, are we still making the same excuses for failure we already see coming.
 
But the point is the Labour leader needs to be better and stronger. Someone who can fight the real fight, not do just alright in situations like the head to heads. He's had so many chances, in his own words, yet at best just held ground.

I'm surrounded by people who should be voting Labour but are not, and mostly because of the media shit. However, can you honestly tell me he's doing his best in dealing with that? I mean you know the problem here, I do, we all do. And yet it's still being used as an excuse.

Instead of fecking moaning about the coverage they receieve, they should be reversing it. Especially online where you can much easier. The question is, just like last election, why are we in exactly the same position? Why are we already making the same excuses?

Labour never learn. And I don't think I'm being unfair in questioning why. Why, in the face of all this shambolic government, are we still making the same excuses for failure we already see coming.

Sorry if I've picked you up wrong but it seems you're essentially blaming Labour for not overcoming a biased media?

Granted it's easier to hit back against it in the online era but the problem is the most gullible people are the older generation who rely on the hugely biased BBC, Sun, Daily Mail and Express for their news. Then there's also the issue that these companies all have online outlets too where they peddle their agendas so it's really a never ending cycle.
 
But the point is the Labour leader needs to be better and stronger. Someone who can fight the real fight, not do just alright in situations like the head to heads. He's had so many chances, in his own words, yet at best just held ground.

I'm surrounded by people who should be voting Labour but are not, and mostly because of the media shit. However, can you honestly tell me he's doing his best in dealing with that? I mean you know the problem here, I do, we all do. And yet it's still being used as an excuse.

Instead of fecking moaning about the coverage they receieve, they should be reversing it. Especially online where you can much easier. The question is, just like last election, why are we in exactly the same position? Why are we already making the same excuses?

Labour never learn. And I don't think I'm being unfair in questioning why. Why, in the face of all this shambolic government, are we still making the same excuses for failure we already see coming.

I'm not really sure what your overall point is. That the media is fine and shouldn't be criticised? You act like criticising the media is all that Labour and its activists have done. This couldn't be further than the truth.

Labour are actually fighting this election. Maybe you should start too rather than just moaning about Labour not being good enough. What is the point in that at this stage of the election, unless you want the Tories to win?
 
It's an easier argument to make, when the entire media narrative, and therefore the lens that most people see Corbyn through, has been relentlessly negative, and the Tories basically have propaganda organisations representing them as the country's biggest news outlets.

I think Corbyn is great, if flawed, is one of the few MPs that has the right idea about what this country needs, has been on the right side of history more often than most blah blah blah. But even for me, when I'm talking to my Dad who says he just can't trust the man, it's easier for me to make the argument that you would be letting in someone who is objectively less trustworthy, than to try and convince my Dad that he should trust Corbyn more.

You don't know how tiring it is being a Corbyn supporter. It's not about moral highground, it's because I really believe that he's the best option for the country right now, but I don't have the energy to deal with the gish gallop of criticisms. The Twitter thread that was posted earlier by @Raven says it all really - so many of Corbyn's high profile critics have contradicted themselves whilst falling over themselves to criticise the man. And it's working, unfortunately.
Yep, no wonder nobody knows why they don't want Corbyn, because the contradictory propaganda against him has lead to people being angry at him but confused as to why.
 
This is your opinion though, and obviously a lot of people disagree. To change their minds you've got to engage, not just say the other guy is worse.

I don't like either of them, and currently think I won't vote for either. I would prefer Johnson to Corbyn though.

No, I just mean it stands to reason that if you don't vote for someone because you've been told that they are 'unelectable' - which is a nonsense word in itself as anyone is electable, as proven time and again - then they won't be able to be elected, but only as you haven't voted for them.
 
Yes heard the same myself. When pushed on why exactly they're never able to given a reason that doesn't sound like it's been ripped from the front page of the tabloid press either.
Exactly. It's the political equivalent of 'you know, the thing about Arsenal is they always try to walk it in'. It's just parroting.
 
The Sun's headline today splashed on the front page is "'Trump thumps chump over NHS lies' - Regarding Corbyn.

The Sun has a circulation of almost 1.4million daily at last count. For anyone that's not seen the circulation figures, The Mail sits 2nd at 1.2m, with 3rd and 4th being the weekend variants.

We've got no chance whilst shit like that is being lapped up Joe public. It still had topless women on Page 3 until not long ago and it's some peoples only source of political intake, literally. Some people very close to me are out on the doors trying to get a decent message out there to the working classes for hours of an evening and all weekend. I can see why they don't give up, but I would.
 
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