UAP - Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon

[Buster15]

I particularly like how you present your pure speculation as absolute fact.


Have you considered that if there is definitely one advanced civilisation out there, then probability states there will likely be billions. It then becomes possible that one of those might show an interest in us.

That might be the case, although somehow I doubt it.

We must remember that were it not for that Meteor impacting our planet some 65 billion years ago, the world would not be dominated by Mammals. And that is just one example of the very high hurdles that our so called intelligent species had to overcome.
Starting of course with how single celled bacteria not only evolved into multi cells. But how it was able to completely change the function of those cells, which was in all probability the biggest hurdle.

I do believe that life of some sort might be reasonably likely to exist elsewhere.

But a combination of the universal laws of physics and those massive hurdles leads me to believe that the chance of other lifeforms capable of interstellar travel, coinciding when we inhabit our planet is extremely improbable.

Nevertheless, it is fun to ponder.....

Edit. Million not billion.

 

[Redlambs]

I particularly like how you present your pure speculation as absolute fact.


Have you considered that if there is definitely one advanced civilisation out there, then probability states there will likely be billions. It then becomes possible that one of those might show an interest in us.

I have presented nothing as "absolute fact".

Your responses to me are pretty odd. It's almost as if I've offended you by suggesting we wouldn't be all that remarkable to an alien lifeform that could travel all this way to bother to observe us.

 

[luke511]

These replies are based off of what we know in our tiny little sphere. Do you honestly think a lifeform capable of the kind of feat well beyond our capabilities can't study their own "ants" and "chimpanzees"? You think somehow we are much more remarkable than the billions of other species they have already studied?

Sure we could be super complex, we could be the most interesting life in the whole universe...but that seems very unlikely considering what you guys want to be the truth, no?

How do you mean, their own 'ants'? Do you think they have their own humans from Earth for them to study? Perhaps you missed the point of it being an analogy. It's about the value of studying evolution and life as a whole on exoplanets, to educate and potentially help answer fundamental theories.

What if there are a number of complex civilisations in the galaxy, us included, and they send probes to each planet to collect data. Just because they're monitoring us doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere as well. It's a baffling thought to think we're not even worth observing right now, given that right now is one of the most interesting periods of time in the Earth's entire history.

 

[Pexbo]

How do you mean, their own 'ants'? Do you think they have their own humans from Earth for them to study? Perhaps you missed the point of it being an analogy. It's about the value of studying evolution and life as a whole on exoplanets, to educate and potentially help answer fundamental theories.

What if there are a number of complex civilisations in the galaxy, us included, and they send probes to each planet to collect data. Just because they're monitoring us doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere as well. It's a baffling thought to think we're not even worth observing right now, given that right now is one of the most interesting periods of time in the Earth's entire history.

It’s also anthropomorphising the aliens by assuming they have the same motivations and interests as us. Their motivations for being here might also be conceptually alien to us and their interest in us as a species doesn’t have to signify that we are in any way special or unique. We just exist and that’s curious enough.

 

[nickm]

I particularly like how you present your pure speculation as absolute fact.


Have you considered that if there is definitely one advanced civilisation out there, then probability states there will likely be billions. It then becomes possible that one of those might show an interest in us.

I am sure there are other lifeforms out there, some of which might be interested in us. But they would have to be able to find us - not easy, then visit us - really really hard - then stay hidden while doing so - massively harder given the energies needed to travel interstellar distances at speed are pretty visible.

Unless they were a huge Interstellar empire or something, which might make it easier, but we'd surely spot something like that before they got to us. Or they had warp engines powered by zero point energy then you are so far into sci-fi there's no point in arguing.

 

[Redlambs]

How do you mean, their own 'ants'? Do you think they have their own humans from Earth for them to study? Perhaps you missed the point of it being an analogy. It's about the value of studying evolution and life as a whole on exoplanets, to educate and potentially help answer fundamental theories.

What if there are a number of complex civilisations in the galaxy, us included, and they send probes to each planet to collect data. Just because they're monitoring us doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere as well. It's a baffling thought to think we're not even worth observing right now, given that right now is one of the most interesting periods of time in the Earth's entire history.

No, it's you who seems to have missed the point. I wasn't equating your use of ants to humans...I was saying they likely have their own lifeforms to study first just like we have.

Both you and Pexbo seem intent on believing we are somehow special and unique, when it's incredibly likely that any alien life that is capable of finding us would have found so much more. It's also quite arrogant to assume this is "one of the most interesting periods" in the Earth's history and so we are worth watching. Even more so that their science must follow the same path as ours, who is to say they need to travel lightyears to answer fundamental theories? Who says that we even need to?

It’s also anthropomorphising the aliens by assuming they have the same motivations and interests as us. Their motivations for being here might also be conceptually alien to us and their interest in us as a species doesn’t have to signify that we are in any way special or unique. We just exist and that’s curious enough.

It's about the value of studying evolution and life as a whole on exoplanets, to educate and potentially help answer fundamental theories.

Agreed Pexbo. He does seem to be doing that. I, on the other hand, think they'd likely not be even remotely interested in us since they'd have surely come across all kinds of species on their way over here and chances are whatever their motives are long since moved past studying emergent species. And even if they were interested, I highly doubt we'd have grainy footage or crashed spacecraft to argue over anyway. I mean, come on...they've come all this way and yet we can kind of see them, or they just crash into us? I find it hard to believe basic sci-fi tropes match reality.

I agree with @Buster15 that it is fun to think about and wonder. But I also think it's kind of weird to get to annoyed when it's pointed out how unlikely it is to be real when you really think about it. And as I said before, it's not just about distance...the much, much bigger issue is the timeframe matching too.

 

[altodevil]

Great thread

 

[luke511]

No, it's you who seems to have missed the point. I wasn't equating your use of ants to humans...I was saying they likely have their own lifeforms to study first just like we have.

Both you and Pexbo seem intent on believing we are somehow special and unique, when it's incredibly likely that any alien life that is capable of finding us would have found so much more. It's also quite arrogant to assume this is "one of the most interesting periods" in the Earth's history and so we are worth watching. Even more so that their science must follow the same path as ours, who is to say they need to travel lightyears to answer fundamental theories? Who says that we even need to?

@Buster15 asks why they would travel all this way to fly about in the sky, I suggest it could be for educational purposes given how valuable that data is scientifically, your whole point is that they have their own lifeforms to study? No value in studying the peak of billions of years worth of evolution on another planet when you can study your own right?

 

[Redlambs]

@Buster15 asks why they would travel all this way to fly about in the sky, I suggest it could be for educational purposes given how valuable that data could be scientifically, your whole point is that they have their own lifeforms to study? No value in studying the peak of billions of years worth of evolution on another planet when you can study your own right?

Except that's not what I said at all.

You brought up why we study things, I merely said they have plenty to study already and likely would have encountered far more along the way than us. I never said we aren't worth studying, I question why that would be foremost in their plans. That's not unreasonable a thought, it's certainly not as arrogant as expecting us to be so interesting and "complex" whilst being in "one of the most interesting periods of time in the Earth's entire history".

But still, you want to make up arguments rather than address the various points, such as how they'd be detected let alone somehow crash, why we'd stand out more than the endless lifeforms encountered along the way, or more so how their timeframe coincides with ours even if they could get here.

 

[luke511]

Except that's not what I said at all.

You brought up why we study things, I merely said they have plenty to study already and likely would have encountered far more along the way than us. I never said we aren't worth studying, I question why that would be foremost in their plans. That's not unreasonable a thought, it's certainly not as arrogant as expecting us to be so interesting and "complex" whilst being in "one of the most interesting periods of time in the Earth's entire history".

But still, you want to make up arguments rather than address the various points, such as how they'd be detected let alone somehow crash, why we'd stand out more than the endless lifeforms encountered along the way, or more so how their timeframe coincides with ours even if they could get here.

I'm not arguing, just trying to unravel the point you're trying to make, suggesting they study their own lifeforms first has zero relevancy. If they're sophisticated enough to send technology here then it's likely that they'll send probes elsewhere too, multiple planets at once. The scale of complexity within these civilisations doesn't change this, I don't see why it would be as linear as you make out.

 

[MrMarcello]

Researching the evolution of complex life on an exoplanet would be pretty interesting.

I'm fairy certain a species that has managed to travel light years could just deploy some drones or whatever technology we can't even think of in our primitive minds (in comparison) to watch us without needing to risk their own lives and whatnot.

 

[The Purley King]

Travelling light years across the galaxy would be impossible, unless they were a species that live far longer than we could ever imagine, unlikely.

Most likely answer would be their ability too control gravity, if you control gravity you can basically do anything, bend space and time how you want.

Which leads me to Nuclear Weapons, nuclear weapons distort, distrupt and heavily affect the fabrics of space time. It is widely believed too be a theory in why they crash, if they are using anti gravity technology then a disruption/distortion too the fabric of space could be a reason why they crash, could also explain why they have a huge interest in our Nuclear sites world wide. It’s not the only reason as there have been crashes before the invention of the nuclear bomb.

Too white wash the hole topic as a load of nonsense in this day and age with the information that is out there too me is quite astonishing. I’m not saying being sceptical of the topic is stupid, but too say there’s nothing going on is about as outrageous as it gets.

One of my favourite films is event horizon.
In that film Sam Neil asks the question “what is the quickest journey between point a and b”
It’s not a straight line, you bend spacetime using gravity to make point a and b exist in the same space and then travel through. Then you unbend everything and you are millions/trillions of light years away from where you started in an instant.
In the film you have to travel to hell in another dimension which isn’t great, but I’ve wondered since then if it might be possible to break the speed of light with unlimited technology. In the example above it’s not really breaking it it’s just existing in one place and then another place a long way away in a short period of time.
(I didn’t do well in physics so feel free to shoot me down)

 

[Buster15]

Great thread

Yes it is a great thread and one I relish reading.
So interesting to read and understand others opinions without some of the usual negative posts.

One of the main reasons I am so sceptical is that I could accept it if there was just one or two of these things, due to the obvious challenges of interstellar travel.

But there appear to be quite a number of them in different shapes and sizes.

I mean. Is it really likely that a number of aliens are coming to Earth at pretty much the same point in time?
Just my view.

 

[Buster15]

I am sure there are other lifeforms out there, some of which might be interested in us. But they would have to be able to find us - not easy, then visit us - really really hard - then stay hidden while doing so - massively harder given the energies needed to travel interstellar distances at speed are pretty visible.

Unless they were a huge Interstellar empire or something, which might make it easier, but we'd surely spot something like that before they got to us. Or they had warp engines powered by zero point energy then you are so far into sci-fi there's no point in arguing.

Good post.

 

[prateik]

I am sure there are other lifeforms out there, some of which might be interested in us. But they would have to be able to find us - not easy, then visit us - really really hard - then stay hidden while doing so - massively harder given the energies needed to travel interstellar distances at speed are pretty visible.

Unless they were a huge Interstellar empire or something, which might make it easier, but we'd surely spot something like that before they got to us. Or they had warp engines powered by zero point energy then you are so far into sci-fi there's no point in arguing.

They cant be that advanced if they keep crashing everytime they get close to some small town in the US.

 

[nickm]

I'm fairy certain a species that has managed to travel light years could just deploy some drones or whatever technology we can't even think of in our primitive minds (in comparison) to watch us without needing to risk their own lives and whatnot.

They could yes, but getting here with all those drones completely undetected would require a mind boggling level of sophistication. A decent sized craft able to accelerate to a decent % of light speed is going to throw off a vast amount of energy which we would detect pretty easily across a wide spectrum. Shielding or cloaking that kind of output requires unknown physics.

 

[nickm]

One of my favourite films is event horizon.
In that film Sam Neil asks the question “what is the quickest journey between point a and b”
It’s not a straight line, you bend spacetime using gravity to make point a and b exist in the same space and then travel through. Then you unbend everything and you are millions/trillions of light years away from where you started in an instant.
In the film you have to travel to hell in another dimension which isn’t great, but I’ve wondered since then if it might be possible to break the speed of light with unlimited technology. In the example above it’s not really breaking it it’s just existing in one place and then another place a long way away in a short period of time.
(I didn’t do well in physics so feel free to shoot me down)

The speed of light is baked into the fabric of the universe, any craft would be bound by it. While the equations of relativity technically allow the sort of bending of spacetime you mention, you need galactic amounts of a kind of energy that has never been seen in nature, to make it work. Arguably it's just a result of playing with equations rather than it telling you anything that's really permitted by the universe.

On the earlier point of nukes, while seemingly very powerful they don't really distort spacetime very much. Energy wise, they are firecrackers compared to the sorts of energies that do.