UAP - Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon

dinostar77 said:
Humans are obviously at the apex of science. Unless we can figure out a way to travel the vast distances no other sentient civilisation which could have a 1000, 10,000 1,000,000 year headstart on us could.

Also there are many people who are 99.999999% we have been visited at some point. The percentage could be 100% but they dont want to shove that in peoples faces.

If we have never been visited then how do you account for the following:

In 1994, 60 young children at Ariel school in Ruwa, Zimbabwe said they'd seen a 'UFO' and 'aliens with big eyes' in bush land near their school playground. The story was reported around the world.

A BBC crew were among the first on the scene and spoke to pupils and teachers. There were also reports of strange lights and a 'craft' in the sky in other parts of Zimbabwe, as well as in Zambia and South Africa.

They asked the 60 children to draw what they saw and they all drew the same thing. John Mack a Harvard professor of psychiatry flew out to zimbabwe to interview them.

How easy is it to get 60 ypung children to tell the same story and draw the same picture?

Recently some of those kids now much older adults came back to the school to talk about their experience and they are adamt about what they saw and experienced. This is just one example of countless others.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-57749238

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Modern Physics has been established by a huge number of experiments. Not just huge, it is absolutely enormous. And the speed of light is a very hard limit. If there is something with mass that travels faster than light, it will be under very very unusual conditions (black holes etc). Hard to imagine that a living cell or any machinery will be undisturbed under these conditions.

By the way, I am an atheist. I don't give a fart if millions and millions of people have heard the voice of God.
 
frostbite said:
Modern Physics has been established by a huge number of experiments. Not just huge, it is absolutely enormous. And the speed of light is a very hard limit. If there is something with mass that travels faster than light, it will be under very very unusual conditions (black holes etc). Hard to imagine that a living cell or any machinery will be undisturbed under these conditions.

By the way, I am an atheist. I don't give a fart if millions and millions of people have heard the voice of God.
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Well heres a few ideas..

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20110015936
Warp Field Mechanics 101

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6382/abe692
Breaking the warp barrier: hyper-fast solitons in Einstein–Maxwell-plasma theory
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6382/abdf6e
Introducing physical warp drives

As an aside:

http://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020APS..APRH12005S/abstract
Presenting a New Theory about the Feasibility of Existence of Speed Faster than Light in Several Ways
 
dinostar77 said:
Well heres a few ideas..

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20110015936
Warp Field Mechanics 101

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6382/abe692
Breaking the warp barrier: hyper-fast solitons in Einstein–Maxwell-plasma theory
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6382/abdf6e
Introducing physical warp drives

As an aside:

http://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020APS..APRH12005S/abstract
Presenting a New Theory about the Feasibility of Existence of Speed Faster than Light in Several Ways
Click to expand...

This is worse bullshit than the Fleischmann-Pons cold fusion. It happens.
 
Buster15 said:
Ok thanks for that.
I must be a bit dim because I struggle with a flat expanding infinate Universe.
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Also what do we mean by universe? Is it the proliferation of stars, Galaxies, cosmic Web etc? Or space-time? I struggle to imagine the stars being infinite as the universe is 'only' 13.8by old.
 
dinostar77 said:
Humans are obviously at the apex of science. Unless we can figure out a way to travel the vast distances no other sentient civilisation which could have a 1000, 10,000 1,000,000 year headstart on us could.

Also there are many people who are 99.999999% we have been visited at some point. The percentage could be 100% but they dont want to shove that in peoples faces.

If we have never been visited then how do you account for the following:

In 1994, 60 young children at Ariel school in Ruwa, Zimbabwe said they'd seen a 'UFO' and 'aliens with big eyes' in bush land near their school playground. The story was reported around the world.

A BBC crew were among the first on the scene and spoke to pupils and teachers. There were also reports of strange lights and a 'craft' in the sky in other parts of Zimbabwe, as well as in Zambia and South Africa.

They asked the 60 children to draw what they saw and they all drew the same thing. John Mack a Harvard professor of psychiatry flew out to zimbabwe to interview them.

How easy is it to get 60 ypung children to tell the same story and draw the same picture?

Recently some of those kids now much older adults came back to the school to talk about their experience and they are adamt about what they saw and experienced. This is just one example of countless others.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-57749238

Click to expand...

:lol: come on!
 
giggs-beckham said:
Also what do we mean by universe? Is it the proliferation of stars, Galaxies, cosmic Web etc? Or space-time? I struggle to imagine the stars being infinite as the universe is 'only' 13.8by old.
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Theres a new suggestion that universe is double that age, a professor from university of Ottawa has postulated it.

Because of this problem (amongst others)

"...there’s a problem. Some stars, like the Methuselah, appear to be older than the universe itself. And that’s not all. The James Webb Space Telescope has discovered early galaxies that seem to be far too advanced for their age.

These galaxies were around just 300 million years after the Big Bang but had the mass and maturity typically seen in galaxies billions of years old. What’s more, they’re much smaller than we’d expect, adding another piece to the puzzle...."

https://www.earth.com/news/new-stud...on-years-old-double-the-current-age-estimate/
 
dinostar77 said:
Well heres a few ideas..

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20110015936
Warp Field Mechanics 101

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6382/abe692
Breaking the warp barrier: hyper-fast solitons in Einstein–Maxwell-plasma theory
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6382/abdf6e
Introducing physical warp drives

As an aside:

http://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2020APS..APRH12005S/abstract
Presenting a New Theory about the Feasibility of Existence of Speed Faster than Light in Several Ways
Click to expand...

My physics only extends to proving photons have momentum so I honestly cannot assess any of these articles but it all looks incredibly theoretical with little empirical basis. It's great publishing a theory because you don't have to prove it yourself, you wait for proper scientists to do it.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Only if your line of thinking is incredibly simple.
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Not remotely. Scientific thinking is rigorous, not flighty. Considering yourself an original and “out there” thinker by decrying science doesn’t make you edgy, it makes you an idiot.
 
nimic said:
If you're going to believe in everything that a group of young children say they saw, you'll end up believing in everything. That is most decidedly not credible evidence.
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A group of 60 children saw the same thing and drew the same thing? Then stuck by their stories as adults 40 years later. A harvard professor got involved as well. But each to their own view and opinions.
 
That'sHernandez said:
My physics only extends to proving photons have momentum so I honestly cannot assess any of these articles but it all looks incredibly theoretical with little empirical basis. It's great publishing a theory because you don't have to prove it yourself, you wait for proper scientists to do it.
Click to expand...
Its called theorical physics for a reason
 
dinostar77 said:
A group of 60 children saw the same thing and drew the same thing? Then stuck by their stories as adults 40 years later. A harvard professor got involved as well. But each to their own view and opinions.
Click to expand...

Do you not understand how often this sort of thing happens? If you're going to take this as gospel, then you also have to be an avid believer in the Satanic panic, where it among other things was erroneously believed that hundreds of children had been systematically sexually abused at a pre-school. They all described in more or less detail how it had happened, and some of them have stuck by their stories as adults 40 years later. And yet... it didn't happen. None of it happened. But like you, people found it impossible to believe that so many children could tell similar stories of something that didn't happen, and real lives got ruined in the process.

There were also several cases of suspected mass poisoning in US schools around the same time. This time children actually got sick with real symptoms, and yet nothing had actually happened. There was no poison. Someone had been genuinely sick, and the rest had convinced themselves (and been helped along by the concern of the parents, teachers, police, etc) that they were also sick.
 
dinostar77 said:
A group of 60 children saw the same thing and drew the same thing? Then stuck by their stories as adults 40 years later. A harvard professor got involved as well. But each to their own view and opinions.
Click to expand...

Hang on. Ignoring the fact that it happened in 2006, so I’m not sure where you got 40 years from; are you saying that this is now definitely true? Unchallengeable? Aliens visited earth and delivered a telepathic message (although only a fraction of the children ‘received’ it - odd way for an advanced civilisation to communicate), saying ‘less pollution’, but gave it to a rural school of 6-12 yr olds in Zimbabwe?

And just to give some context, a couple of days before the reentry of the Zenit-2 rocket was viewable from Zimbabwe, and local radio and tv stations had been inundated with questions and UFO sightings. It’s an astonishing coincidence, don’t you think?

Add to that, that these pictures were off ‘big -eyed’ aliens as you see on TV. Again, that’s odd.

But just to reiterate my question; are you saying that you believe this event (alien visitation to earth on that date, at that place) is a simple fact, with no plausible explanation?
 
nimic said:
Do you not understand how often this sort of thing happens? If you're going to take this as gospel, then you also have to be an avid believer in the Satanic panic, where it among other things was erroneously believed that hundreds of children had been systematically sexually abused at a pre-school. They all described in more or less detail how it had happened, and some of them have stuck by their stories as adults 40 years later. And yet... it didn't happen. None of it happened. But like you, people found it impossible to believe that so many children could tell similar stories of something that didn't happen, and real lives got ruined in the process.

There were also several cases of suspected mass poisoning in US schools around the same time. This time children actually got sick with real symptoms, and yet nothing had actually happened. There was no poison. Someone had been genuinely sick, and the rest had convinced themselves (and been helped along by the concern of the parents, teachers, police, etc) that they were also sick.
Click to expand...

I think the best way to explain it to him, is to find something he *definitely* disbelieves in; the devil for example. And then show how many individual and joint experiences people claim to have had where the devil appeared to them. He’s committed to the alien thing, and it’s making him susceptible.
 
NicolaSacco said:
Hang on. Ignoring the fact that it happened in 2006, so I’m not sure where you got 40 years from; are you saying that this is now definitely true? Unchallengeable? Aliens visited earth and delivered a telepathic message (although only a fraction of the children ‘received’ it - odd way for an advanced civilisation to communicate), saying ‘less pollution’, but gave it to a rural school of 6-12 yr olds in Zimbabwe?

And just to give some context, a couple of days before the reentry of the Zenit-2 rocket was viewable from Zimbabwe, and local radio and tv stations had been inundated with questions and UFO sightings. It’s an astonishing coincidence, don’t you think?

Add to that, that these pictures were off ‘big -eyed’ aliens as you see on TV. Again, that’s odd.

But just to reiterate my question; are you saying that you believe this event (alien visitation to earth on that date, at that place) is a simple fact, with no plausible explanation?
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It was 1994.
 
dinostar77 said:
Humans are obviously at the apex of science. Unless we can figure out a way to travel the vast distances no other sentient civilisation which could have a 1000, 10,000 1,000,000 year headstart on us could.

Also there are many people who are 99.999999% we have been visited at some point. The percentage could be 100% but they dont want to shove that in peoples faces.

If we have never been visited then how do you account for the following:

In 1994, 60 young children at Ariel school in Ruwa, Zimbabwe said they'd seen a 'UFO' and 'aliens with big eyes' in bush land near their school playground. The story was reported around the world.

A BBC crew were among the first on the scene and spoke to pupils and teachers. There were also reports of strange lights and a 'craft' in the sky in other parts of Zimbabwe, as well as in Zambia and South Africa.

They asked the 60 children to draw what they saw and they all drew the same thing. John Mack a Harvard professor of psychiatry flew out to zimbabwe to interview them.

How easy is it to get 60 ypung children to tell the same story and draw the same picture?

Recently some of those kids now much older adults came back to the school to talk about their experience and they are adamt about what they saw and experienced. This is just one example of countless others.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-57749238

Click to expand...


Not all kids saw or experienced anything but the main problem is that it is utter bollocks.
 
So either aliens are visiting earth of there is something else going on.

I think if aliens were visiting, there would be more tangible proof. There isn’t any.

My theory: the UFO/UAP sightings and crashes are military projects that are being covered up.

The US has been working on anti-gravity engines since the 50s. It is no coincidence most sightings are in America.
 
giggs-beckham said:
Also what do we mean by universe? Is it the proliferation of stars, Galaxies, cosmic Web etc? Or space-time? I struggle to imagine the stars being infinite as the universe is 'only' 13.8by old.
Click to expand...

An even more fundamental question. My very simplistic view would be everything including the big bang. Energy and matter. Because I understand that our Universe started off with just energy and matter coalesced from that energy as it started to cool.
But like all these things, it is probably far more complex than this.
 
slyadams said:
Not remotely. Scientific thinking is rigorous, not flighty. Considering yourself an original and “out there” thinker by decrying science doesn’t make you edgy, it makes you an idiot.
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First of all I never claimed to be anti science, I trust the scientific process. I asked him that question because he likened the belief in ufos with believing and seeing God, being antivax, and all the other nutty stuff. That line of thinking seems almost religious itself.
 
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Buster15 said:
An even more fundamental question. My very simplistic view would be everything including the big bang. Energy and matter. Because I understand that our Universe started off with just energy and matter coalesced from that energy as it started to cool.
But like all these things, it is probably far more complex than this.
Click to expand...
As the universe expands or inflates the energy cools down doesn't it so that's another reason why I don't think the galaxies go on forever because the normal matter energy density must've decreased in the early years of the universe.
 
giggs-beckham said:
As the universe expands or inflates the energy cools down doesn't it so that's another reason why I don't think the galaxies go on forever because the normal matter energy density must've decreased in the early years of the universe.
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Understand that thank you and agree.
 
dinostar77 said:
A group of 60 children saw the same thing and drew the same thing? Then stuck by their stories as adults 40 years later. A harvard professor got involved as well. But each to their own view and opinions.
Click to expand...

I think the Ariel school incident is really interesting, but playing devils advocate, I have heard that some of the interview techniques in the aftermath of the event have been criticized - ie, having small group discussions while allowing other children to watch these discussions instead of talking to the children individually, thus allowing them to build a collective story. This isn't helped by the fact some of the first interviewers were also UFO enthusiasts whose techniques potentially enabled divergent aspects of individual stories to become more consistent, collective stories.

Also, there was some suggestion that the Harvard Professor, Mack, that his interview techniques were not objective, that he was obsessed with UFO encounters/abductions, and that he would make suggestive comments to lead the children to a particular conclusion. For example, Mack was an environmental advocate and critics have claimed that part of the story involving the aliens telling the children about environmental catastrophe only became a broader aspect of the children's collective story after he arrived. A few children may have mentioned it before Mack, but after he arrived, that aspect of the story became more focused and more important for many other children. I also think some of the conclusions that can be drawn from the event are exaggerated at times - ie, all the kids that witnessed something say the same thing and they stuck by their story. I don't know the details, but I remember reading that there were a group of children who claimed to have seen nothing even though they were in the same playground and some of the drawings were different (in some of the drawings, the creatures had hair, some were naked, others clothed, some were more like traditional short "greys" with big eyes others much taller with longer legs and no distinct eyes) as well as some of the stories divergent.

Also, I still have trouble wrapping my head around stuff like this, but some have suggested this as a mass hysteria event. Most of the mass hysteria events I have read about involve a large group of people fainting, having seizures for no medical reason, laughing, or believing that they are sick/have been poisoned - so similar to Ariel but not completely analogous. However, there have been mass hysteria events that involve sightings of spirits/ghosts, evil, enlarged faces and even monsters or ape-human hybrids stalking whole cities with hundreds of individual reports that generally match. Some of the children even thought the aliens were actually creatures from local folklore that had previously also caused mass hysteria events.

nimic said:
Do you not understand how often this sort of thing happens? If you're going to take this as gospel, then you also have to be an avid believer in the Satanic panic, where it among other things was erroneously believed that hundreds of children had been systematically sexually abused at a pre-school. They all described in more or less detail how it had happened, and some of them have stuck by their stories as adults 40 years later. And yet... it didn't happen.
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And people went to jail in some of those instances. I think a couple who operated a day care spent over 20 years in jail for charges related to child abuse and torture that turned out to be based on mass hysteria, bad police work, and manipulated testimony. The stories the children told were relatively consistent and involved abuse, satanic rituals, killing animals and even airplane trips that never happened
 
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mu4c_20le said:
Are you just trusting the science? So if scientists one day come out and say it's real, then you'll change your tune?
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If scientists were to come out and say that for example ghosts are real then they would have actual evidence of that, it would've been peer reviewed and it would also be testable by anyone who had the necessary equipment to do so, which makes science pretty unique in that regard. They wouldn't go "you know my science pal Steve over there thought he saw a ghost yesterday so now we think they're real and you should too".

Science has an incredible track record and even though it is obviously not always correct (which scientists are the first ones to point out) it is much, much more reliable than anything else we've ever had when it comes to explaining the world around us.
 
Zlaatan said:
If scientists were to come out and say that for example ghosts are real then they would have actual evidence of that, it would've been peer reviewed and it would also be testable by anyone who had the necessary equipment to do so, which makes science pretty unique in that regard. They wouldn't go "you know my science pal Steve over there thought he saw a ghost yesterday so now we think they're real and you should too".

Science has an incredible track record and even though it is obviously not always correct (which scientists are the first ones to point out) it is much, much more reliable than anything else we've ever had when it comes to explaining the world around us.
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Science is God! Its actually the ONLY reliable thing in this world and humans biggest achievement. If you look around yourself 99 percent of our reality is basically a product of the science..
 
Zlaatan said:
If scientists were to come out and say that for example ghosts are real then they would have actual evidence of that, it would've been peer reviewed and it would also be testable by anyone who had the necessary equipment to do so, which makes science pretty unique in that regard. They wouldn't go "you know my science pal Steve over there thought he saw a ghost yesterday so now we think they're real and you should too".

Science has an incredible track record and even though it is obviously not always correct (which scientists are the first ones to point out) it is much, much more reliable than anything else we've ever had when it comes to explaining the world around us.
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It's the best we've got right now, and I'm fine with that. I don't have anything better. I just think that modern science is barely a thousand years old, and it feels like an infancy in terms of our understanding of the universe. Is it possible that our perception of the world could radically change again in the next couple hundred years?
 
mu4c_20le said:
It's the best we've got right now, and I'm fine with that. I don't have anything better. I just think that modern science is barely a thousand years old, and it feels like an infancy in terms of our understanding of the universe. Is it possible that our perception of the world could radically change again in the next couple hundred years?
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Our scientific knowledge will grow and advance, and some things we think now will turn out to be wrong, but the scientific method itself cannot be improved upon. Observe-hypothesise-test is the only way to expand scientific knowledge, and the only real scientific theories are falsifiable ones. This is as true now as it was in Ancient Greek times.
 
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