Turkish referendum

I am not sure but most of the yes votes coming from Europe are not the most educated or rational people. Most of them went there many years ago and has working class routes. If you offer them a chance to come back Turkey, they will not accept because of the economical benefits of Europe. But they somehow constantly manage to screw us with a dream of revival of Ottoman Empire which is ridiculous.

As time passes by, I start to feel more like crying. You can probably imagine how devastated we are, but to actually live it, is incredibly bad.

A lot of first generation immigrants also happen to be massive hypocrites with a superiority complex. They seem to believe, the reason they are in the West is because they deserve to be. While their compatriots who are back home, deserve to be left there and aren't capable of knowing what's good for them. They're oblivious to the fact, that they managed to migrate often due to a lot luck and circumstances lining up for them and also because they didn't usually have much to leave behind.

The genuinely talented and educated ones, who made it on pure ability don't often share these beliefs.
 
In my opinion, this has to be the end for dual citizenship in Germany. It's absolutely unbelievable how anyone can be a German Citizen, respecting our constitution, and then go on and vote for something like this. I'm sorry, but this vote shows you are not German and you don't respect our values, history and constitution. We should force people to decide, this way we will see what's what.

I'd also be okay with this. As somebody who's clearly biased in favour of Kemalism, I'm sick of all of those German/Austrian Turks who treat Turkey like crap and then swan off back to Germany to live it up. I once lived across from an Austrian-Turkish family and they were extremely obnoxious. Generalizing, sure, but I'll forgive myself under the circumstances.
 
I dont think it will be the end of dual citizenship for quite a while under Merkel or Schulz, the whole Turkey stuff Germany was very passive and defensive.

Every citizen of the EU should decide for one citizenship and be done with it.

It just makes me absolutely sick that these people are allowed to vote in our elections. Terrible.
 
A lot of first generation immigrants also happen to be massive hypocrites with a superiority complex. They seem to believe, the reason they are in the West is because they deserve to be. While their compatriots who are back home, deserve to be left there and aren't capable of knowing what's good for them. They're oblivious to the fact, that they managed to migrate often due to a lot luck and circumstances lining up for them and also because they didn't usually have much to leave behind.

The genuinely talented and educated ones, who made it on pure ability don't often share these beliefs.

You are %100 right. I visit Germany at least once a year for a textile fair and I just can't stand the Turks around there. It amazes me how someone lives in one of the most democratic states of the world and can still support Erdogan. I really can't.

Tomorrow, I will wake up with an absolute sorrow. I fought and turned more than 10 Yes votes to No. But I don't think I have enough in the tank. I don't want my children to grow up in this madness. I had plans to move UK or USA for some years, and it is time to realize those plans.
 
You are %100 right. I visit Germany at least once a year for a textile fair and I just can't stand the Turks around there. It amazes me how someone lives in one of the most democratic states of the world and can still support Erdogan. I really can't.

Tomorrow, I will wake up with an absolute sorrow. I fought and turned more than 10 Yes votes to No. But I don't think I have enough in the tank. I don't want my children to grow up in this madness. I had plans to move UK or USA for some years, and it is time to realize those plans.

The places of Trump and Brexit? Not that good of an idea probably :p

Come here or try to get work somewhere in scandinavia.
 
You are %100 right. I visit Germany at least once a year for a textile fair and I just can't stand the Turks around there. It amazes me how someone lives in one of the most democratic states of the world and can still support Erdogan. I really can't.

Tomorrow, I will wake up with an absolute sorrow. I fought and turned more than 10 Yes votes to No. But I don't think I have enough in the tank. I don't want my children to grow up in this madness. I had plans to move UK or USA for some years, and it is time to realize those plans.

As a pessimist from all else that has occurred in Turkey, I never predicted a No victory because I assumed it would come to this, so, ironically, I'm still something of an optimist and expecting change.

All of that said, with regards to the bit bolded, I can somewhat empathise with you on that, and I sincerely wish you all the best if you choose to go ahead with it. If you want to stay in Europe but find the north full of idiotic RTE dogs, I'd recommend Spain if your circumstances permit it.
 
The places of Trump and Brexit? Not that good of an idea probably :p

Come here or try to get work somewhere in scandinavia.

I understand the irony :), but I have some tech ideas and can pull off financial side for some time. USA is the place to be for this. But I don't know. I am just torn apart and don't know what to think.

Just know that, these are not the values many educated Turkish people believe. The analysis also says so. They could not get the votes of young people. They could not get the votes of the top 10 biggest cities. We believe in democracy and Turkey is much better than what today shows. Someday this will change. This has to change.
 
He also lost in Istanbul, the city he was the mayor of and could always rely on for support. For somebody who supposedly won, he also has the body language of a loser.
Yeah, it could feel like a loss in the end. But i don't think he gives a feck, tbh.
 
There's a stark difference between Turks in Germany or the Netherlands where 60+% voted yes and those in the UK and US where more or less 15% voted yes.
Many of these people came here from the Turkish countryside so often already more conservative than the general population in Turkey and they see/hear about new roads and bridges and they think everything is great. That's legit the argument you hear here. The funny thing is, when a Turkish minister was refused entry of the Netherlands a lot of people went to Rotterdam to protest this, and some Turkish guys could be overheard saying, one warning the other that they should calm down or they would get arrested and the other responding "no don't worry, this isn't Turkey" and yet they are protesting in support of RTE who isn't really a fan of protests himself.
What should be mentioned is that the turnout in Germany was at ~50%. So the actual number of active Erdogan supporters among those eligible to vote was a tad higher than 30% in this referendum.

It should also be said that the majority (~60%) of those eligible to vote are Turkish citizens only, not dual citizens.
[Edit: The percentage is actually even higher than that; I made the mistake of factoring in all dual citizens, not only those of voting age.]

Just to add a bit more perspective to these numbers.
 
Last edited:
RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017
Recep Tayyip Erdogan didn’t just win his constitutional referendum — he permanently closed a chapter of his country’s modern history.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/16/rip-turkey-1921-2017/

On Jan. 20, 1921, the Turkish Grand National Assembly passed the Teşkilât-ı Esasîye Kanunu, or the Law on Fundamental Organization. It would be almost three years until Mustafa Kemal — known more commonly as Ataturk, or “Father Turk” — proclaimed the Republic of Turkey, but the legislation was a critical marker of the new order taking shape in Anatolia.

The new country called Turkey, quite unlike the Ottoman Empire, was structured along modern lines. It was to be administered by executive and legislative branches, as well as a Council of Ministers composed of elected representatives of the parliament. What had once been the authority of the sultan, who ruled alone with political and ecclesiastic legitimacy, was placed in the hands of legislators who represented the sovereignty of the people.

More than any other reform, the Law on Fundamental Organization represented a path from dynastic rule to the modern era. And it was this change that was at stake in Turkey’s referendum over the weekend. Much of the attention on Sunday’s vote was focused on the fact that it was a referendum on the power of the Turkish presidency and the polarizing politician who occupies that office, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Yet it was actually much more.

Whether they understood it or not, when Turks voted “Yes”, they were registering their opposition to the Teşkilât-ı Esasîye Kanunu and the version of modernity that Ataturk imagined and represented. Though the opposition is still disputing the final vote tallies, the Turkish public seems to have given Erdogan and the AKP license to reorganize the Turkish state and in the process raze the values on which it was built. Even if they are demoralized in their defeat, Erdogan’s project will arouse significant resistance among the various “No” camps. The predictable result will be the continuation of the purge that has been going on since even before last July’s failed coup including more arrests and the additional delegitimization of Erdogan’s parliamentary opposition. All of this will further destabilize Turkish politics.

Turkey’s Islamists have long venerated the Ottoman period. In doing so, they implicitly expressed thinly veiled contempt for the Turkish Republic. For Necmettin Erbakan, who led the movement from the late 1960s to the emergence of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) in August 2001, the republic represented cultural abnegation and repressive secularism in service of what he believed was Ataturk’s misbegotten ideas that the country could be made Western and the West would accept it. Rather, he saw Turkey’s natural place not at NATO’s headquarters in Brussels but as a leader of the Muslim world, whose partners should be Pakistan, Malaysia, Egypt, Iran, and Indonesia.

When Erbakan’s protégés — among them Erdogan and former President Abdullah Gul — broke with him and created the AKP, they jettisoned the anti-Western rhetoric of the old guard, committed themselves to advancing Turkey’s European Union candidacy, and consciously crafted an image of themselves as the Muslim analogues to Europe’s Christian Democrats. Even so, they retained traditional Islamist ideas about the role of Turkey in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world.

Thinkers within the AKP — notably former Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu — harbored reservations about the compatibility of Western political and social institutions with their predominantly Muslim society. But the AKP leadership never acted upon this idea, choosing instead to undermine aspects of Ataturk’s legacy within the framework of the republic. That is no longer the case.

The AKP and supporters of the “yes” vote argue that the criticism of the constitutional amendments was unfair. They point out that the changes do not undermine a popularly elected parliament and president as well as an independent (at least formally) judiciary. This is all true, but it is also an exceedingly narrow description of the political system that Erdogan envisions. Rather, the powers that would be afforded to the executive presidency are vast, including the ability to appoint judges without input from parliament, issue decrees with the force of law, and dissolve parliament. The president would also have the sole prerogative over all senior appointments in the bureaucracy and exercise exclusive control of the armed forces. The amendments obviate the need for the post of prime minister, which would be abolished. The Grand National Assembly does retain some oversight and legislative powers, but if the president and the majority are from the same political party, the power of the presidency will be unconstrained. With massive imbalances and virtually no checks on the head of state, who will now also be the head of government, the constitutional amendments render the Law on Fundamental Organization and all subsequent efforts to emulate the organizational principles of a modern state moot. It turns out that Erdogan, who would wield power not vested in Turkish leaders since the sultans, is actually a neo-Ottoman.

Erdogan’s ambition helped propel Turkey to this point. But unlike the caricature of a man who seeks power for the sake of power, the Turkish leader actually has a vision for the transformation of Turkey in which the country is more prosperous, more powerful, and more Muslim, meaning conservative and religious values would shape the behavior and expectations of Turks as they make their way in life. The problem is that Erdogan is convinced that he is the only one with the political skills, moral suasion, and stature to carry it out. Consequently, he needs to command the state and the political arena in ways that Turkish presidents, who are supposed to be above the fray and by tradition are expected to carry out their limited but important powers in statesmanlike fashion, never have.

For all of Erdogan’s political successes, forging the “executive presidency” that he seeks has been an exercise in frustration until now. In October 2011, he announced that Turkey would have a new constitution within a year. By 2013, the interparty parliamentary committee charged with writing the new document was deadlocked, so Erdogan set his sights on a constitution written by the AKP. In order to get it passed, however, he needed to reinforce his parliamentary majority. When, in two general elections in 2015, he did not get the 367 seats (out of 550) needed to write and ratify a constitution without the public’s input, the Turkish president was forced to settle for constitutional amendments and Sunday’s referendum.

In order to bolster support for the executive presidency, Erdogan has raised the specter of the political and economic instability of the 1990s and early 2000s, when a series of coalition governments proved too incompetent and corrupt to manage Turkey’s challenges. Many Turks quite rightly regard that era as one of lost opportunities and would prefer not to repeat it. The wave of terror attacks by Kurdish insurgents that killed scores between the summer of 2015 and late 2016 added urgency to Erdogan’s message about the wisdom of a purely presidential system.

Turkey’s domineering president has also sought to clear the field of real and perceived opponents, driving and deepening Turkey’s authoritarianism. The bureaucracy has been purged, a process that began even before last July’s failed coup; the Gulen movement has been dismantled; journalists have been silenced through jail time and other threats to their livelihood; and campaigners for a “no” vote hounded. To build support for a “yes” vote, Erdogan played on nationalist sentiment and manufactured crises with the Dutch and German governments over pro-AKP rallies planned in their countries.

It should come as no surprise that Erdogan pulled out all the stops in pursuit of the constitutional amendments. After all, they alter the organization of the Turkish state in fundamental ways and in the process do away with the checks and balances in the system. Those constraints on executive power were never strong to begin with, and Erdogan has already upended them in practice. Now, he seeks to legitimize this change in constitutional principles. Why?

Besides the fact that authoritarians like to situate their nondemocratic practices in legal systems so they can claim “rule of law,” Erdogan needs the legal cover to pursue his broader transformative agenda. And the only way it seems that he can accomplish that is by making himself something akin to a sultan.

Erdogan is an authoritarian, like those found throughout the world. But he is also inspired by Ottoman history, and there are aspects of his rule that echo that era. As the Turkish president has come to rely on a smaller and smaller group of advisors, including members of his family, his “White Palace” — the presidential palace in Ankara he built on land once owned by Ataturk — has come to resemble, not merely in grandeur, the palaces of the Ottoman sultans. Yet his effort to secure the executive presidency goes much deeper than that. Erdogan wants to tear down the republic because both he and the people he represents have suffered at the hands of those who have led and defended it. It would be impractical and impossible to re-create the governing structures of the Ottoman state, but in the Turkish-Islamist imagination, the age of the Ottomans was not only the apotheosis of Turkish culture and power, but a tolerant and progressive era. For Erdogan’s core constituency, in particular, the AKP era has been a golden era, a modern day analogue to this manufactured past. These predominantly pious and middle class Turks enjoy personal and political freedoms that they were once denied. They have also enjoyed upward economic and social mobility. By granting Erdogan the executive presidency he has so coveted, they are looking forward to even greater achievements. Of course, there are the millions of Turks who voted No and fear the consolidation of authoritarianism and who regard the state and the Kemalist ideas it represents as sacrosanct.

The Turkish Republic has an undeniably complicated history. It is an enormous achievement. In the space of almost a century, a largely agrarian society that had been devastated by war was transformed into a prosperous power that wielded influence in its own region and well beyond. At the same time, modern Turkey’s history has also been nondemocratic, repressive, and sometimes violent. It thus makes perfect political sense for Erdogan to seek the transformation of Turkey by empowering the presidency and thereby closing off the possibility once and for all that people like him will be victims of the republic.

At the end of the day, Erdogan is simply replacing one form of authoritarianism with another. The Law on Fundamental Organization and the republic that followed were expressions of modernity. The Turkish Republic has always been flawed, but it always contained the aspiration that — against the backdrop of the principles to which successive constitutions claimed fidelity — it could become a democracy. Erdogan’s new Turkey closes off that prospect.
 
quite embarrassing that the majority in every major German city (probably the same in Belgium, Austria, Denmark and the Netherlands) voted for yes, while almost every major city in Turkey voted for no despite all the suppression. It is quite possible, that people with Turkish heritage from these countries tipped this election in favour of yes (ignoring that the process itself was obviously not fair).
It is fairly annoying that these cnuts are able to benefit from living in free, liberal and democratic societies, while they just officially ended the same in another country. Even worse is once you explore why they did this. A bunch of defiant, petty, sulking babies.
 
quite embarrassing that the majority in every major German city (probably the same in Belgium, Austria, Denmark and the Netherlands) voted for yes, while almost every major city in Turkey voted for no despite all the suppression. It is quite possible, that people with Turkish heritage from these countries tipped this election in favour of yes (ignoring that the process itself was obviously not fair).
It is fairly annoying that these cnuts are able to benefit from living in free, liberal and democratic societies, while they just officially ended the same in another country. Even worse is once you explore why they did this. A bunch of defiant, petty, sulking babies.
I didn't think about that but you are right, would be funny if Germany decided to kick all the Turks back to Turkey
 
Reading snippets my understanding was this election was about changing the constitution to US type of democracy.

A constitutional referendum was held throughout Turkey on 16 April 2017 on whether to approve 18 proposed amendments to the Turkish constitution that were brought forward by the governing Justice and Development Party (AKP) and the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP). If approved, the office of the Prime Minister would be abolished and the existing parliamentary system of government would be replaced with an executive presidency and a presidential system.[2] The number of seats in Parliament were proposed to be raised from 550 to 600 while the president was proposed to be given more control over appointments to the Supreme Board of Judges and Prosecutors (HSYK)

Wiki
 
I'd also argue Kemal (Ataturk) was never a liberal or a democrat. Secularism, as we know in the West, is understood to mean separation of religion from the state, with the state ensuring religious freedom for all individuals and non-interference in affairs of worship, providing equality for all citizens before the law, regardless. Kemalist secularism included anti-religion bias and basically based on paralysing of religion from society, and his main goal was repressing and removing religious and cultural heritage of civilisation from the state.

There is a massive difference between Kemalist Secularism and Western secularism. Kemal was a nationalist extremist secularist. His programme was to allow only the ethnic Turk and non-religionist to prosper.

Western liberal secularism gives rights and freedoms to all equally despite their religion, race, colour or creed.
 
I didn't think about that but you are right, would be funny if Germany decided to kick all the Turks back to Turkey
Where to begin?

1. The only political groups that demand such a thing over here are neo-Nazis. (Doesn't mean they're the only people with such phantasies of ethnic cleansing, many more share them in private.)

2. Apart from that, you of course equate a certain group among a population with the population as a whole. That's the exact reason I tried to add some (very basic) perspective to the percentages from the elections some posts above, because voting results =/= social reality. But I have no illusions there could be a lot of interest in this kind of perspective when it comes to immigration-related topics among people with a certain agenda.
 
Last edited:
Reading snippets my understanding was this election was about changing the constitution to US type of democracy.

A constitutional referendum was held throughout Turkey on 16 April 2017 on whether to approve 18 proposed amendments to the Turkish constitution that were brought forward by the governing Justice and Development Party (AKP) and the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP). If approved, the office of the Prime Minister would be abolished and the existing parliamentary system of government would be replaced with an executive presidency and a presidential system.[2] The number of seats in Parliament were proposed to be raised from 550 to 600 while the president was proposed to be given more control over appointments to the Supreme Board of Judges and Prosecutors (HSYK)

Wiki
From what I understood the president will have much more competences than US president. He can decide about the budget (in US, it needs senate approval), he will decide about the majority of justices (in US, it needs senate approval), he will decide about ministers (in US it needs senate approval) among other things.

Somewhere between an absolute monarch and an US president when it comes to competences.

That of course, doesn't mean it is a bad thing. There are different forms of democracy (although the referendum doesn't seem to have been that democratic in the first place), and Turkey definitely needs to be lead by a strong politician. Otherwise, coup d'etats will happen.

Quite agree with you about secularism in Turkey. It was borderline anti-theism before Erdogan. Apparently women couldn't wear handkerchief in an Istanbul university, but they can do that in Rome.
 
Reading snippets my understanding was this election was about changing the constitution to US type of democracy.

Nah, it's not really comparable, there are now zero checks and balances of the type that we've seen frustrate the hell out of Trump lately. Read the article I posted above. Also, having ruled Turkey for 17 years or so (even as President which was previously a largely ceremonial role), Erdogan has now set the clock back to reset to ensure he'll now rule probably until he dies. This was all about placing the maximum amount of power possible in the one pair of hands he trusts to execute his life ambition - his own. And he's done it by locking up critical journalists, dominating the media, purging the judiciary, civil service, military, academia, etc. of tens of thousands of perceived enemies of the state, manipulating foreign crises, I could go on and on.

Not that I think Erdogan is a cynical dictator like those who have dominated Arab politics in the last century. He represents a genuinely popular Islamist current which has appeal across not just Turkey but the entire Islamic world. As I wrote in another thread - "when Erdogan speaks of 'democracy' I don't think he's being a hypocrite or disingenuous - I think he believes secular Turks are living a kind of false consciousness due to the overwhelming impact of the West, and that true 'democracy' can only prevail once he and his party, using the power of the modern state, frees their minds and allows them to recognize their true Islamic identity and heritage."

I'd also argue Kemal (Ataturk) was never a liberal or a democrat. Secularism, as we know in the West, is understood to mean separation of religion from the state, with the state ensuring religious freedom for all individuals and non-interference in affairs of worship, providing equality for all citizens before the law, regardless. Kemalist secularism included anti-religion bias and basically based on paralysing of religion from society, and his main goal was repressing and removing religious and cultural heritage of civilisation from the state.

I don't think anyone is arguing Kemal was a democrat, and everyone acknowledges the illiberal nature of his secularism and general ideology. I'd argue that many of these steps were largely superficial, but most were necessary to first save Turkey from the ashes of the war, and then build it into a strong state in its own right. Kemalist Turkey was far from perfect, but relative to the other post-Ottoman successor states in the Middle East and the Balkans, it was a success which generally managed to avoid the horrors of the police state, civil war, and foreign intervention i.e. all the things which have plagued its Arab neighbours. With Erdogan's determination to insert Turkey into the region's dysfunctional politics, that is something else that has come to an end in recent years.

True Kemal played a big role in ensuring the military would continue to have an overbearing influence on Turkish politics after his death. However he also laid the foundations that allowed a truly multi-party system to emerge during the 1950 elections when his successor Ismet Inonu accepted defeat and handed power peacefully over to the opposition. That was a crucial moment which truly distinguished Turkey from its neighbours. Since then there has been a steady reintroduction of Islam into public life since 1950, as doing so has been an obviously popular political platform for any parties in opposition. The main tension has been between the military and the Islamist current currently represented by the AKP.

So militarism and genuine multi-party politics - this was Kemal's dual legacy on the Turkish political system which Erdogan has seemingly managed to bring to an end in the last few years, to be replaced with authoritarian one-man rule on the model of the last real Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II (he suspended the first Ottoman constitution and ruled unimpeded for over 30 years, and is now being rehabilitated as a Turkish hero in modern Turkey).
 
I have a feeling a lot of opposition against Erdogan in Europe and in Turkey is due to his perceived or real leanings towards Islam more than his move towards changes to the electoral and governance system.
 
I have a feeling a lot of opposition against Erdogan in Europe and in Turkey is due to his perceived or real leanings towards Islam more than his move towards changes to the electoral and governance system.

Undoubtedly true in many cases.

At the same time, I get the feeling that much of the willingness on the part of his Muslim supporters to overlook his blatant authoritarianism is due to the same reason.
 
Undoubtedly true in many cases.

At the same time, I get the feeling that much of the willingness on the part of his Muslim supporters to overlook his blatant authoritarianism is due to the same reason.
Absolutely
 
I have a feeling a lot of opposition against Erdogan in Europe and in Turkey is due to his perceived or real leanings towards Islam more than his move towards changes to the electoral and governance system.
Any autocratic state, which is diminishing democracy in this manner would attract concern from Europe. I suspect the Islamic element doesn't help, but there is a natural distrust of theocracies innate in the, loosely secular, generic political preference of Europe. Would a concerted move towards totalitarianism in a Christian state be attracting as much concern? I think it would to be honest. I suspect the Islamic element merely adds another dimension.
 
Written a couple of days before the vote:

Turkey’s Constitutional Referendum Will Be Neither Free Nor Fair

https://ottomansandzionists.com/201...nal-referendum-will-be-neither-free-nor-fair/

On Sunday, Turks will turn out for yet another election after a nearly 18 month reprieve to vote in a referendum that will overhaul Turkey’s constitution if passed. The culmination of a decade and a half of AKP rule and President Erdoğan’s burning ambition to be the most consequential leader in Turkish history, the constitutional amendments that the government would like Turks to approve will replace Turkey’s parliamentary democracy with a presidential system and create a presidency that controls the other two branches of government, effectively destroying any real semblance of checks and balances. Turkey will still lay claim to being a democracy that holds regular elections, but to call the proposed system democratic stretches the bounds of credulity. Yet, there is something else taking place on Sunday that is in some ways even worse than the proposed constitutional amendments themselves because it represents a truly unprecedented step in Turkey’s political development.

One of the reasons that Sunday’s vote is being given so much attention is because it is, in fact, a vote. While a win for the Yes camp will be the latest derailment of the Turkish democracy train, the government is pointing to the fact that the constitutional overhaul’s fate will be determined by voters and is thus an affirmation of Turkish democracy rather than a blow to it. Like the government’s rhetoric surrounding the substance of the amendments themselves, this rhetoric about the process is Orwellian doublespeak. The vote on Sunday is not going to be a democratic one, but a thoroughly authoritarian one whose outcome has been largely predetermined. The standard for a democratic vote is one that is free and fair, and this one will be neither. In fact, it is quite possible that this will be the least free and fair vote ever conducted in Turkey under the auspices of a civilian government, which is what makes the vote on the referendum as bad as the content of the referendum.

Free and fair elections are what distinguish electoral democracies from competitive authoritarian regimes. Under competitive authoritarianism, elections are contested but they are not free and fair. According to Stanford political scientist Larry Diamond, who is the preeminent expert on elections and democracy, elections are free when supporters of different sides are free to campaign and solicit votes and voters are not subject to coercion in the voting process; elections are fair when they are neutrally administered, ballot secrecy is respected, police and courts treat all sides impartially, independent monitoring is allowed at all voting locations, one side is not given an advantage over the other in terms of public media access, and there are no questions over the legitimacy and fairness of the vote count. With the possible exception of the last variable, the Turkish referendum violates every other one of these elements on both parts of the equation. The idea that a vote to ratify the new constitution will be a democratic one is an offense to anyone with sentient consciousness who has been paying even a smidgen of attention during the run-up to the referendum.

For starters, supporters of the No campaign have been subject to intimidation, harassment, and arrest. They have been shot at, beaten up, and prohibited from carrying signs or publicly rallying for No. They have been tear gassed by police, arrested, and both Erdoğan and Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım have said that a vote for No is akin to supporting terrorism and the PKK. There is no plausible argument to be made that Turks have been free to campaign for the No side, and given the widespread intimidation and use of violence, no plausible argument to be made that this will not unduly influence the way people actually vote. After all, if No wins and you are suspected to have voted No, why should you assume that you will not be a target of the state and the roaming groups of thugs that it has empowered?

On the fair aspect, things have been just as bad. Despite the fact that the vote in the Grand National Assembly to amend the constitution and thereby trigger a referendum is mandated by law to be secret, AKP parliamentarians cast their affirmative votes publicly in an effort to intimidate others into doing the same and voting for the package of amendments. Supporters of Yes have been given hundreds of hours on television stations, while supporters of No have gotten almost none, and the government has stripped the election board’s power to sanction stations that do not devote equal time to both sides. Hundreds of media organizations have been shut down and journalists jailed, ostensibly for supporting terrorism or the failed coup last July but almost all of whom coincidentally just happen to oppose the constitutional amendments. Selahattin Demirtaş and Figen Yüksekdağ, the two leaders of the HDP, which is the third largest party in the parliament and the one most vociferously opposed to the amendments, are both in jail along with other HDP members. Independent election monitors will not be at every polling station, and the only news organization with access to report the official results as they come in will be the state news agency. Even if people do feel free to vote their conscience, there has been an unprecedented advantage conferred upon the Yes side by the government and its supporters in a way that will be nearly impossible to overcome.

The fact of the matter is that whether the outcome is Yes or No, Turkey already has a presidential system, rendering the outcome a sideshow. Since being elected president, Erdoğan has done everything possible to neuter the office of the prime minister and assume that office’s powers for himself. He has chaired cabinet meetings, overhauled the cabinet itself, selected party lists, and acted as the head of government in every conceivable way. If Yes wins – and I fully expect that it will – this will only formalize a process that has been well underway since 2014. That Turkey will have a presidential system will not be unprecedented, because the precedent has been set. What will be unprecedented is the degree to which the vote will be unfree and unfair after Turks have been subjected to months of authoritarian coercion. When Turks voted for their current constitution, they did so while living under military rule following the 1980 coup and voted on a document drafted by the army. It came after hundreds of thousands of arrests and purges, tens of thousands of citizenship revocations, and thousands of suspicious deaths and disappearances. It passed with over 90% of the vote, and the surprise is that the tally wasn’t higher given the environment that the military created. The nine months since the failed July 15 coup attempt have been nothing like what Turks went through in the early 1980s, but it is also nothing like Turks have been through under civilian rule before. Just because there will be a vote involved on Sunday does not make this a milestone to be celebrated or lauded.

Erdoğan and the AKP are about to eviscerate any balance that the political system has had and create a presidency that is among the least democratic of any country that holds contested elections. That they will do so in a completely undemocratic manner should surprise no one. Far too many are focusing on the substance while giving the government a free pass on the process. But as Turks go to vote on Sunday, let’s all take a moment to recognize that this is not a free and fair vote, that the legitimacy of elections has not been respected, and that no matter the outcome, this will in no way be a triumph for democracy.
 
I have a feeling a lot of opposition against Erdogan in Europe and in Turkey is due to his perceived or real leanings towards Islam more than his move towards changes to the electoral and governance system.
Reading snippets my understanding was this election was about changing the constitution to US type of democracy.

A constitutional referendum was held throughout Turkey on 16 April 2017 on whether to approve 18 proposed amendments to the Turkish constitution that were brought forward by the governing Justice and Development Party (AKP) and the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP). If approved, the office of the Prime Minister would be abolished and the existing parliamentary system of government would be replaced with an executive presidency and a presidential system.[2] The number of seats in Parliament were proposed to be raised from 550 to 600 while the president was proposed to be given more control over appointments to the Supreme Board of Judges and Prosecutors (HSYK)

Wiki


In the case of various other countries I’d probably agree with this statement (I’d say that Egypt is a good example where this would be true), but when it comes to Erdogan it is quite disingenuous. He was seen very favorable for a long time. That only changed once he started to clamp down on any opposition with police and courts. Even that was overlooked for quite some time. I’d actually argue that the very opposite is true. European politicians and most mainstream journalists showed a lot of sympathy and consideration despite very hostile foreign policy and authoritarian domestic policies due to the specific role of Turkey as bridge (lit. and fig.) between the Middle East and Europe.

With this referendum any pretense about democracy (not that much was left anyway) is gone. I think it is fair to say, that I am usually advocating for very restraint/cautious foreign policy, but that only works when the other side does the same. Erdogan acted extremely hostile towards various European countries (very hostile language and symbolic acts; jailing citizens; mobilizing people with Turkish heritage for his benefits and sadly other things that are even worse). Continuous appeasement is not a functional strategy to handle this. The first step has to be to accept, that there are quite substantial disagreements/tensions between Turkey and Europe, while interest are not aligned anymore.
 
In the case of various other countries I’d probably agree with this statement (I’d say that Egypt is a good example where this would be true), but when it comes to Erdogan it is quite disingenuous. He was seen very favorable for a long time. That only changed once he started to clamp down on any opposition with police and courts. Even that was overlooked for quite some time. I’d actually argue that the very opposite is true. European politicians and most mainstream journalists showed a lot of sympathy and consideration despite very hostile foreign policy and authoritarian domestic policies due to the specific role of Turkey as bridge (lit. and fig.) between the Middle East and Europe.

With this referendum any pretense about democracy (not that much was left anyway) is gone. I think it is fair to say, that I am usually advocating for very restraint/cautious foreign policy, but that only works when the other side does the same. Erdogan acted extremely hostile towards various European countries (very hostile language and symbolic acts; jailing citizens; mobilizing people with Turkish heritage for his benefits and sadly other things that are even worse). Continuous appeasement is not a functional strategy to handle this. The first step has to be to accept, that there are quite substantial disagreements/tensions between Turkey and Europe, while interest are not aligned anymore.

Good points - for years all we heard in the West about the AKP was how the Turkish 'model' was a supremely successful example of the melding of Islam to modern politics. This didn't even change after Erdogan fell out with Israel in 2010 (it even gave him a bump in certain quarters). Right up until 2012 we had Davutoglu's "zero problems with neighbours" nonsense being used to highlight the model.
 
I have a feeling a lot of opposition against Erdogan in Europe and in Turkey is due to his perceived or real leanings towards Islam more than his move towards changes to the electoral and governance system.

I know that the current system in Turkey has had a history of maintaining power via coups, so they're not exactly liberal. And yes, I am sad this is happening since Turkey was home-grown secularism which had (decent) popular backing and is now being attacked by an Islamist snake-oil seller.

I remember coming across a dozen thin books called, Women Living under Muslim Law dossiers probably from the 80s. Countries like Saudi Arabia had almost the full book dedicated to them. Turkey had 5 pages, mostly talking about hostilities to gays.

Edit: google tells me this is a London-based group. I had no idea. http://www.wluml.org/section/resource/results/taxonomy-108?page=2
 
I have a feeling a lot of opposition against Erdogan in Europe and in Turkey is due to his perceived or real leanings towards Islam more than his move towards changes to the electoral and governance system.
There's nothing wrong with that. Soon, if we hear women should not wear trousers in public. Would that be right?
 
Interesting and depressing results. The one in Germany would look far worse, if we consider that 20%-25% of the voters are Kurds, Alavites, chr. Assyrians and other minorities, who probably oppose this reform fairly unanimously.

infografik_8980_so_stimmten_tuerken_weltweit_beim_verfassungsreferendum_ab_n.jpg





Good points - for years all we heard in the West about the AKP was how the Turkish 'model' was a supremely successful example of the melding of Islam to modern politics. This didn't even change after Erdogan fell out with Israel in 2010 (it even gave him a bump in certain quarters). Right up until 2012 we had Davutoglu's "zero problems with neighbours" nonsense being used to highlight the model.


I think a lot of Europeans had this hope/vision for Turkey as role-model for other Muslim majority countries and ignored everything that didn’t confirm to it. It was a very attractive idea.

Since Ahmet Davutoglu became foreign minister, the foreign policy is nothing short of a car-crash. Did you (or anyone else) read his book Strategik Derinlik, Turkiye’nin Uluslararasi Konumu (Strategic Depth, Turkey’s International Position)? I haven’t (does it even exist in English?), but it might still be very relevant and interesting.
 
Last edited:
Interesting and depressing results. The one in Germany would look far worse, if we consider that 20%-25% of the voters are Kurds, Alavites, chr. Assyrians and other minorities, who probably oppose this reform fairly unanimously.

infografik_8980_so_stimmten_tuerken_weltweit_beim_verfassungsreferendum_ab_n.jpg








I think a lot of Europeans had this hope/vision for Turkey as role-model for other Muslim majority countries and ignored everything that didn’t confirm to it. It was a very attractive idea.

Since Ahmet Davutoglu became foreign minister, the foreign policy is nothing short of a car-crash. Did you (or anyone else) read his book Strategik Derinlik, Turkiye’nin Uluslararasi Konumu (Strategic Depth, Turkey’s International Position)? I haven’t (does it even exist in English?), but it might still be very relevant and interesting.
How come the UK is not in there out of interest?
 
I was on this train as well, but fortunately nobody asked me to write about it. Recently looking at Turkey, all I can see are political, cultural, societal and economic factors that are going to create instability in the country. I struggle to see any positive way out of this. Instead of being a model for the region, Turkey follows the region down the rabbit-hole of continuous crisis.
 
Interesting and depressing results. The one in Germany would look far worse, if we consider that 20%-25% of the voters are Kurds, Alavites, chr. Assyrians and other minorities, who probably oppose this reform fairly unanimously.




I think a lot of Europeans had this hope/vision for Turkey as role-model for other Muslim majority countries and ignored everything that didn’t confirm to it. It was a very attractive idea.

Since Ahmet Davutoglu became foreign minister, the foreign policy is nothing short of a car-crash. Did you (or anyone else) read his book Strategik Derinlik, Turkiye’nin Uluslararasi Konumu (Strategic Depth, Turkey’s International Position)? I haven’t (does it even exist in English?), but it might still be very relevant and interesting.

Do you know if the Kurdish areas within Turkey were firmly no? I have a feeling I read somewhere it wasn't that clear (but I cant find my sources).