Turkey

2cents said:
I'm starting to think that, beyond the obviously cynical motive of energizing his base, this is just who he actually is and the way he genuinely thinks.
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That looks increasingly likely to me too. He is genuinely thinking that he is doing the right thing for Turks.
 
onemanarmy said:
He's doing exactly the same Trump is doing, as is Wilders, De Wever, Le Pen.
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Now I'm no fan of Wilders, but Erdogan is not doing the same thing. He's going much much much much much much much further with his crazyness.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Now I'm no fan of Wilders, but Erdogan is not doing the same thing. He's going much much much much much much much further with his crazyness.
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I agree he goes a bit further than Wilders, but he's trying to create a climate of fear and nationalism, which is what Wilders is doing.
 
onemanarmy said:
I agree he goes a bit further than Wilders, but he's trying to create a climate of fear and nationalism, which is what Wilders is doing.
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In essence sure. Wilders is old news though, it's all about Thierry Baudet now. He's like Wilders, but more narcissistic and better looking. He's also slightly better at hiding the fact that he's a racist cnut.
 
Erdogan is basically playing on the minds of people to strengthen himself and shore up support. Anyone who opposes Turkey's war in Syria against the Kurds is being labelled as "anti-national' by Erdogan and his lackeys.

After the coup attempt failed, he was quick to clear the civil services and other offices of people seen as opposed to him. This confontation with the Kurds may turn out to be the rope that ends up hanging him. Assad's forces have joined the Kurds now. NATO are opposed to Erdogan, Russia are doing what is best for themselves and the US will do the same whilst being wary of him.

Reading some of his rhetoric against Tillerson and the US was a bit gobsmacking. The US doesn't forget these sort of things. I'm not sure he wants good relations with the NATO nations.
 
Not sure on the credibility of the source of translation. The girl appears to be crying:

 
Water Melon said:
As much as I dislike Erdogan, I doubt those quotes are true.
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This is from the opposition paper Cumhuriyet, google translate seems to confirm it, but would be nice to have a Turkish speaker on here have a listen:

 
2cents said:
Not sure on the credibility of the source of translation. The girl appears to be crying:

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Reported reactions from other Turkish parties suggest that at least the gist of the translation is correct.
Opposition figures and lawmakers in Turkey slammed President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Saturday over remarks in which he wished martyrdom for a little girl in military uniform at a convention of his party.

“Mashallah. She has a flag too in her pocket. If she becomes a martyr, inshallah (God willing) they will lay the flag [on her],” Erdogan said upon seeing the child wearing a uniform of the Turkish special forces.
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The leader of the newly-formed nationalist right-wing IYI Party (Good Party), Meral Aksener, accused Erdogan of being on the same path as the Palestinian Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), which the Turkish government supports despite the US and Israeli designation of the group as “terrorist.”

“He is following Hamas. I am calling on Mr. Erdogan to stop being a loudmouth. Get serious,” said Aksener who leads a faction that splintered from the far-right Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) for allying with the President.
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Pro-Kurdish Peoples’ Democratic Party (HDP), the only bloc that has opposed the campaign [against the YPG], was more critical [than CHP] of the President’s words.

“The mindset that abuses children by promising them death will lose,” a tweet on the party’s official feed read.
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http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/553d6c47-7b31-472a-ba01-958a6f555580
 
2cents said:
This is from the opposition paper Cumhuriyet, google translate seems to confirm it, but would be nice to have a Turkish speaker on here have a listen:

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Bloody hell. I speak Turkish fluently and the quote is: "she has the flag of Turkey in her pocket ready. If she becomes a martyr (dies during military actions), she will be wrapped in the flag, God willing". Unbelievable :(
 
Water Melon said:
Bloody hell. I speak Turkish fluently and the quote is: "she has the flag of Turkey in her pocket ready. If she becomes a martyr (dies during military actions), she will be wrapped in the flag, God willing". Unbelievable :(
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Thanks :(
 
Far from surprising, to be fair. He has always been a tool, now he just can show it freely.
 
Turkey has immense importance not only in the middle east peace process but also with regard to politics and migration in Europe. Tough to see such a nut job in control of a nation at a geographic crossroads that may control the fate of millions of Kurds and Syrians.
 
Nikhil said:
Turkey must be removed from NATO. They are supporting questionable groups in Syria and have always treated Kurds inhumanely.
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You cant do that. Cant push a country like Turkey to a hostile position. There are enough problems in that region. What you think would happen with all the refugees settled in Turkey in the west start treating the country as an enemy?
 
Charles Miller said:
You cant do that. Cant push a country like Turkey to a hostile position. There are enough problems in that region. What you think would happen with all the refugees settled in Turkey in the west start treating the country as an enemy?
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What would happen to them if Turkey was chucked out? Erdogan and his lackeys are being belligerent to the point that they are making the region even more unstable than it already is.
 
Nikhil said:
What would happen to them if Turkey was chucked out? Erdogan and his lackeys are being belligerent to the point that they are making the region even more unstable than it already is.
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Maybe, but this is the world. Life is not perfect, let alone international affairs. We need to choose the lesser evil.
 
Nikhil said:
Turkey must be removed from NATO. They are supporting questionable groups in Syria and have always treated Kurds inhumanely.
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You are right, but what you are forgetting is that even other nato countries are supporting those same groups in syria.
 
Nikhil said:
What would happen to them if Turkey was chucked out? Erdogan and his lackeys are being belligerent to the point that they are making the region even more unstable than it already is.
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It wouldn't do much good to throw them out, as Erdogan would simply run into Putin's arms, and of course the US, which has at least one base in Turkey, would probably lose a strategic Air Force base for both Iraq, Syria, and Russia. There really is no salient policy to deal with Erdogan other than to simply wait him out.
 
VidaRed said:
Turkey will become the next pakistan and launch pad for terrorists into europe.
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Fener1907 said:
No, it won't.
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RedTiger said:
OK Nostradamus.
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2 years to the date.

Turkey is turning into another Pakistan

There isn’t much that Turkey’s president can do these days to further debase his reputation in the West. Recep Tayyip Erdogan has crushed peaceful protests at home and abroad, closed newspapers, threatened American soldiers and collectively scapegoated Kurds. But over the weekend, Erdogan managed to go even lower.

At a rally at Kahramanmaras, the Turkish leader brought a trembling 6-year-old girl on stage dressed in military garb and told her she would be honored if she died as a martyr. He sounded like a terrorist. We expect this kind of child abuse from the fanatics in Hamas or Hezbollah. Erdogan though is the leader of an important NATO ally.

Turkey is beginning to resemble Pakistan, a perpetually failing state whose military leadership has tolerated and advanced a vision of political Islam deeply hostile to US and Western interests.

To be sure, Turkey is not quite there yet. There is still a majority of Turks who want to eventually join the European Union. The Turkish economy is stronger than Pakistan’s, and its banks are more trusted.

And unlike in Pakistan, the driving force to further Islamize society has come from Erdogan, an elected leader, not the military.

That said, Erdogan is following the Pakistani model in disturbing ways, according to Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistani ambassador to Washington. Haqqani, a former journalist, is in a unique position to evaluate this trend because he wrote the best history of how the Pakistani military embraced Islamic fundamentalism.

In an interview Haqqani said Erdogan’s approach was reminiscent of Pakistan’s military dictator between 1978 and 1988, Zia ul-Haq. Like Zia, Erdogan has instituted legal and societal reforms to further Islamize society.

“Erdogan has taken the Pakistani formula of mixing hard-line nationalism with religiosity,” Haqqani said. “Zia imposed Islamic laws by decree, amended the constitution, marginalized secular scholars and leaders, and created institutions for Islamization that have outlasted him. Erdogan is trying to do the same in Turkey.”

The clearest parallel with Pakistan is Turkey’s current approach to the war in Syria. In January, Erdogan launched a new offensive against America’s Kurdish allies in Afrin. Even though the Turks have worked against the regime in Damascus, during the first weeks of that offensive they actually coordinated with their erstwhile adversaries in Syria.

This is a less toxic version of Pakistan’s broader approach to the US-led war in Afghanistan. There, the Pakistani military and intelligence services have tolerated and at times encouraged the Haqqani Network (no relation to the ambassador) to become a lifeline for the Afghan Taliban and other terrorists attacking US forces and the elected government in Kabul.

At the same time, the Pakistanis have been important allies for the United States. Of course, when the US finally tracked down Osama bin Laden, it found him living in the same town as Pakistan’s prestigious military academy, Abbottabad.

Again, Turkey has not yet sunk to this level. But it’s heading down this path. In the first years of the Syrian civil war after 2011, Turkey’s border with that country was a sieve for new Islamic State recruits joining the short-lived caliphate in Raqqa. To this day, Turkey remains a friendly outpost for Hamas, the terror group that has run Gaza since 2007.

As a former US ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, told me this week: “Turkey is not Pakistan yet, but if it continues on the trajectory that Erdogan has put it on, there is a prospect it could become like Pakistan.”

This is the deep challenge today for Washington. So far however the US government has not shown Ankara the tough love necessary to stop Turkey’s slide. The latest high-level visit for example, from Secretary of State Rex Tillerson last month, sought to paper over Turkey’s campaign in Afrin and Erdogan’s recent threat to deliver an “Ottoman slap” to the US.

This kind of short-term thinking is understandable, but it doesn’t address the slow-motion disaster happening now in Turkey. Here it’s important, at the very least, to draw some boundaries for Erdogan and convey that he cannot maintain the current relationship with the US if he crosses them.

A good starting point would be to demand Erdogan stop threatening US soldiers.

https://nypost.com/2018/03/03/turkey-is-turning-into-another-pakistan/
 
VidaRed said:
2 years to the date.

Turkey is turning into another Pakistan

There isn’t much that Turkey’s president can do these days to further debase his reputation in the West. Recep Tayyip Erdogan has crushed peaceful protests at home and abroad, closed newspapers, threatened American soldiers and collectively scapegoated Kurds. But over the weekend, Erdogan managed to go even lower.

At a rally at Kahramanmaras, the Turkish leader brought a trembling 6-year-old girl on stage dressed in military garb and told her she would be honored if she died as a martyr. He sounded like a terrorist. We expect this kind of child abuse from the fanatics in Hamas or Hezbollah. Erdogan though is the leader of an important NATO ally.

Turkey is beginning to resemble Pakistan, a perpetually failing state whose military leadership has tolerated and advanced a vision of political Islam deeply hostile to US and Western interests.

To be sure, Turkey is not quite there yet. There is still a majority of Turks who want to eventually join the European Union. The Turkish economy is stronger than Pakistan’s, and its banks are more trusted.

And unlike in Pakistan, the driving force to further Islamize society has come from Erdogan, an elected leader, not the military.

That said, Erdogan is following the Pakistani model in disturbing ways, according to Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistani ambassador to Washington. Haqqani, a former journalist, is in a unique position to evaluate this trend because he wrote the best history of how the Pakistani military embraced Islamic fundamentalism.

In an interview Haqqani said Erdogan’s approach was reminiscent of Pakistan’s military dictator between 1978 and 1988, Zia ul-Haq. Like Zia, Erdogan has instituted legal and societal reforms to further Islamize society.

“Erdogan has taken the Pakistani formula of mixing hard-line nationalism with religiosity,” Haqqani said. “Zia imposed Islamic laws by decree, amended the constitution, marginalized secular scholars and leaders, and created institutions for Islamization that have outlasted him. Erdogan is trying to do the same in Turkey.”

The clearest parallel with Pakistan is Turkey’s current approach to the war in Syria. In January, Erdogan launched a new offensive against America’s Kurdish allies in Afrin. Even though the Turks have worked against the regime in Damascus, during the first weeks of that offensive they actually coordinated with their erstwhile adversaries in Syria.

This is a less toxic version of Pakistan’s broader approach to the US-led war in Afghanistan. There, the Pakistani military and intelligence services have tolerated and at times encouraged the Haqqani Network (no relation to the ambassador) to become a lifeline for the Afghan Taliban and other terrorists attacking US forces and the elected government in Kabul.

At the same time, the Pakistanis have been important allies for the United States. Of course, when the US finally tracked down Osama bin Laden, it found him living in the same town as Pakistan’s prestigious military academy, Abbottabad.

Again, Turkey has not yet sunk to this level. But it’s heading down this path. In the first years of the Syrian civil war after 2011, Turkey’s border with that country was a sieve for new Islamic State recruits joining the short-lived caliphate in Raqqa. To this day, Turkey remains a friendly outpost for Hamas, the terror group that has run Gaza since 2007.

As a former US ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, told me this week: “Turkey is not Pakistan yet, but if it continues on the trajectory that Erdogan has put it on, there is a prospect it could become like Pakistan.”

This is the deep challenge today for Washington. So far however the US government has not shown Ankara the tough love necessary to stop Turkey’s slide. The latest high-level visit for example, from Secretary of State Rex Tillerson last month, sought to paper over Turkey’s campaign in Afrin and Erdogan’s recent threat to deliver an “Ottoman slap” to the US.

This kind of short-term thinking is understandable, but it doesn’t address the slow-motion disaster happening now in Turkey. Here it’s important, at the very least, to draw some boundaries for Erdogan and convey that he cannot maintain the current relationship with the US if he crosses them.

A good starting point would be to demand Erdogan stop threatening US soldiers.

https://nypost.com/2018/03/03/turkey-is-turning-into-another-pakistan/
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Come back when it actually has. Then we'll talk.
 
VidaRed said:
2 years to the date.

Turkey is turning into another Pakistan

There isn’t much that Turkey’s president can do these days to further debase his reputation in the West. Recep Tayyip Erdogan has crushed peaceful protests at home and abroad, closed newspapers, threatened American soldiers and collectively scapegoated Kurds. But over the weekend, Erdogan managed to go even lower.

At a rally at Kahramanmaras, the Turkish leader brought a trembling 6-year-old girl on stage dressed in military garb and told her she would be honored if she died as a martyr. He sounded like a terrorist. We expect this kind of child abuse from the fanatics in Hamas or Hezbollah. Erdogan though is the leader of an important NATO ally.

Turkey is beginning to resemble Pakistan, a perpetually failing state whose military leadership has tolerated and advanced a vision of political Islam deeply hostile to US and Western interests.

To be sure, Turkey is not quite there yet. There is still a majority of Turks who want to eventually join the European Union. The Turkish economy is stronger than Pakistan’s, and its banks are more trusted.

And unlike in Pakistan, the driving force to further Islamize society has come from Erdogan, an elected leader, not the military.

That said, Erdogan is following the Pakistani model in disturbing ways, according to Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistani ambassador to Washington. Haqqani, a former journalist, is in a unique position to evaluate this trend because he wrote the best history of how the Pakistani military embraced Islamic fundamentalism.

In an interview Haqqani said Erdogan’s approach was reminiscent of Pakistan’s military dictator between 1978 and 1988, Zia ul-Haq. Like Zia, Erdogan has instituted legal and societal reforms to further Islamize society.

“Erdogan has taken the Pakistani formula of mixing hard-line nationalism with religiosity,” Haqqani said. “Zia imposed Islamic laws by decree, amended the constitution, marginalized secular scholars and leaders, and created institutions for Islamization that have outlasted him. Erdogan is trying to do the same in Turkey.”

The clearest parallel with Pakistan is Turkey’s current approach to the war in Syria. In January, Erdogan launched a new offensive against America’s Kurdish allies in Afrin. Even though the Turks have worked against the regime in Damascus, during the first weeks of that offensive they actually coordinated with their erstwhile adversaries in Syria.

This is a less toxic version of Pakistan’s broader approach to the US-led war in Afghanistan. There, the Pakistani military and intelligence services have tolerated and at times encouraged the Haqqani Network (no relation to the ambassador) to become a lifeline for the Afghan Taliban and other terrorists attacking US forces and the elected government in Kabul.

At the same time, the Pakistanis have been important allies for the United States. Of course, when the US finally tracked down Osama bin Laden, it found him living in the same town as Pakistan’s prestigious military academy, Abbottabad.

Again, Turkey has not yet sunk to this level. But it’s heading down this path. In the first years of the Syrian civil war after 2011, Turkey’s border with that country was a sieve for new Islamic State recruits joining the short-lived caliphate in Raqqa. To this day, Turkey remains a friendly outpost for Hamas, the terror group that has run Gaza since 2007.

As a former US ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, told me this week: “Turkey is not Pakistan yet, but if it continues on the trajectory that Erdogan has put it on, there is a prospect it could become like Pakistan.”

This is the deep challenge today for Washington. So far however the US government has not shown Ankara the tough love necessary to stop Turkey’s slide. The latest high-level visit for example, from Secretary of State Rex Tillerson last month, sought to paper over Turkey’s campaign in Afrin and Erdogan’s recent threat to deliver an “Ottoman slap” to the US.

This kind of short-term thinking is understandable, but it doesn’t address the slow-motion disaster happening now in Turkey. Here it’s important, at the very least, to draw some boundaries for Erdogan and convey that he cannot maintain the current relationship with the US if he crosses them.

A good starting point would be to demand Erdogan stop threatening US soldiers.

https://nypost.com/2018/03/03/turkey-is-turning-into-another-pakistan/
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Hasn't happened yet though. You might be correct in the future but the course of the future can change within a single day.
 
RedTiger said:
Hasn't happened yet though. You might be correct in the future but the course of the future can change within a single day.
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Exactly. Even the writer says as much, which is why I'm not even trying to get into it.

Forgetting Pakistan, Meral Akşener will be the name to watch out for in the near future. The woman's got bigger balls than any male opposition to Recep. It's blatantly obvious she even intimidates him to some extent.
 
Dynamics are too different. Alevi issues aside, Turkey doesn't have the sectarian problems of Pakistan and it's a much stronger central state, always has been.
 
2cents said:
Dynamics are too different. Alevi issues aside, Turkey doesn't have the sectarian problems of Pakistan and it's a much stronger central state, always has been.
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Thats because pakistan is an artificial state having no historical basis. However the topic is about the policies (conservative religious right wing) it has followed to justify its existence which has led to its existing sectarian problems. Turkey is on the same path.
 
Raoul said:
I'm sure this will help immensely with France's support on Turkish EU ascension.
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EU has never been sincere towards Turkey and their plan to join EU (Turkey could have done everything and still won't have been allowed to join EU cause they're Muslims) and Turkey doesn't want anymore to join EU.
 
Revan said:
EU has never been sincere towards Turkey and their plan to join EU (Turkey could have done everything and still won't have been allowed to join EU cause they're Muslims) and Turkey doesn't want anymore to join EU.
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You think its because Turkey is a Muslim country ? Or because they don't satisfy the governance and human rights components the Copenhagen criteria ?
 
Raoul said:
You think its because Turkey is a Muslim country ? Or because they don't satisfy the governance and human rights components the Copenhagen criteria ?
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Both. I think that even if they were the most democratic country in Europe, they still wouldn't have been allowed to join.

Isn't Hungary nowadays becoming as dictatorial as Turkey, with Orban essentially threatening opposition with death, and no one in EU said a single world about it?
 
Revan said:
Both. I think that even if they were the most democratic country in Europe, they still wouldn't have been allowed to join.

Isn't Hungary nowadays becoming as dictatorial as Turkey, with Orban essentially threatening opposition with death, and no one in EU said a single world about it?
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Orban is a bit authoritarian but (as a former resident of Hungary) I wouldn't say he is out of control like Erdogan is. I think its perfectly reasonable for a Muslim country to join the EU as long as it meets the Copenhagen standards.
 
How likely are the Turks to be kicked out of NATO? Or do The West want to have 'keep your enemies closer' approach? As it would be almost certain Turkey would strengthen ties with Russia - which would really be something! Considering the history between the two.
 
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