Any update on those nukes?
Turkey
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Well that's a shame.
Shouldn't the military make sure they are all together before they attempt a coup? Obvious they aren't strong like the Egyptians.
One that is poorly planned and/or without enough forces to grab everyone. Faulty intelligence could also play a role.
Remember people are not perfect and can feck up big time.
This is real life not a book or movie, real coups fail sometimes
History is full of failed coups.
That first one. Wow, just wow.
I wonder what the States will do if Gülen is actually implicated.
I'm really ill-informed.
I see an (apparently) democratically elected government being attacked by a military coup that has (apparently) been denounced by the likes of Obama, Clinton and Ban Ki Moon.
Why are people on the military's side?
I see an (apparently) democratically elected government being attacked by a military coup that has (apparently) been denounced by the likes of Obama, Clinton and Ban Ki Moon.
Why are people on the military's side?
Is the Air Force with the coup or not?
Because the guy is a dictator
Aparently the Bosphorus is closed to shipping.
I guess some are because the current President is becoming increasingly authoritarian (and can now get worse without much opposition). Given the street protests and the like I don't think all of the people are on the coupleaders side. And it is only a small part of the military that is involved in the coup.
No matter what governments think of the current President they will back the democraticlly elected government over a militery coup especially when Turkey was a relatively stable place in a region that needs stability.
Caf's hypocricy never fails to amaze me. You can hate Erdogan, but no one should support military who is obviously far from democratic either. But as long as they are against pro Islam president even if they are worse than him they are fine I guess. 
They are all biased
What exactly is hypocritical about that? I don't think the support for the military comes from concern for the democratic process.Caf's hypocricy never fails to amaze me. You can hate Erdogan, but no one should support military who is obviously far from democratic either. But as long as they are against pro Islam president even if they are worse than him they are fine I guess.
Hypocricy is related to the democracy, apparently everyone is for democracy and at the same time against president who is elected by the people.
If you read the thread that's exactly what people are concerned regarding Erdogan, and somehow think that military might "return" the democracy.
I mean, why else are people supporting the military?
Because they hate Erdogan and want secular Turkey would be my guess. He's definitely making it a worse place by the day. Don't know if that warrants a coup but those would be my reasons.
I look at a conflict and if one side is shouting Allahu Akbar, then generally I'm with the other guy.
I'm not cool with religious based government. Shame this seems to have failed.
It's not unreasonable to support the concept of a secular state, something that Erdogan very obviously threatens. It's one of the reasons why attacking Iraq was a mistake: Saddam was a dictator but at least a secular one. That is ALWAYS better than any form of theocracy.Caf's hypocricy never fails to amaze me. You can hate Erdogan, but no one should support military who is obviously far from democratic either. But as long as they are against pro Islam president even if they are worse than him they are fine I guess.
I asked this last night and no one answered, even though majority are in support for the coup:
Again, I can understand the hate for Erdogan by some, but military is probably even worse. At least Erdogan has the majority of support, military don't.
I support the concept of secular state as much as anyone, but I don't think the military gives that, except just in their statement. Please read my previous post.
Sorry, a worse place? I suggest you read up a little on what a shithole Turkey was Pre-AKP, with corruption being endemic from your beloved secularists and the economy being akin to that of a mid-tier developing country's, like Pakistan.
Under Erdogan, Turkey has risen the ranks to become one of, if not THE fastest growing economies in the world, and prosperity has spread throughout the country, and not just concentrated in the big cities. Regions like Anatolia which were previously neglected are now driving the economy to new heights, the benefits of which the whole country is feeling.
It's probably the single biggest reason why the people came out in support of Erdogan yesterday, even the ones who dislike him and his grip on power, because quite frankly, they've never had it so good in terms of economic prosperity.
He's not perfect, and he has many faults, but the alternative to him would have been calamitous.
I've been to Turkey a few times in the past 10 years. It generally gets more and more unpleasant each time.
There is no alternative to him because he's supressed and purged the opposition. There is also quite a bit of propaganda and censorship in his favour, especially in the rural areas. Not to say he doesn't have genuine supporters though. Obviously they're a big part of the population. I just don't like agree with or like them either.
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The situation is quite muddled though; I'm not sure how democratically elected Erdogan is, considering he ruthlessly smothers all opposition, tries to control all sources of information - he's a dictator, no two ways about it.
I'm not sure military rule (let's say they'd renege on their promise of elections) would be better or worse for Turkey. But I see no reason to doubt their intentions of maintaining a secular state. Though of course it's all moot now, given that they failed miserably.
We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on that.
Not sure how it's propaganda either if he's actually improved the quality of these people's lives in a way that no other Turkish government had done before. I'd say it's pretty a tangible way of garnering support.
A lot of people in the West seem to believe Turkey is comprised of Istanbul and Ankara, when the fact of the matter is, Turkey is fecking vast! And they are but two cities.
The secularists have for too long enjoyed more influence than their numbers, or their record in parliament deserved, and considering how this secularism came about in the first place, through the thoroughly autocratic and undemocratic methods of Ataturk and his ilk, I'm not sure how these people are being seen as the paragons of virtue by people in the West.
Why are people so quick to believe conspiracy theories that match up to their belief system but deride those that don't as being crazy.
Surely before conclusive proof suggestions as the above are just dangerous.
What is hypocritical there? Caf is against any politician that isn't secular?Caf's hypocricy never fails to amaze me. You can hate Erdogan, but no one should support military who is obviously far from democratic either. But as long as they are against pro Islam president even if they are worse than him they are fine I guess.
I also love how you make this as something anti-democratic (which indeed it is), by supporting a dictator.
So was Ataturk, but that didn't stop cretins loving him and his legacy.
I'm not pretending to be impartial. I am very much against religion in politics and I don't hide my preferance for secular people, in general. I don't care if they are less in numbers than the conservative ones. I'd still like them to be in charge, even if that would be undemocratic.
What I said is coming from my perspective. Someone else mind find Turkey to be a better place than 5 years ago.
It's a bit similar to Egypt. Damned if you do, damned if you don't (in regards to democracy)
Except if course it's not a strawman, considering a strawman is me responding to and 'debunking' an argument that you have not actually made and I have neither debunked anything or suggested that you have said anything that you haven't.
I asked you a very simple question. If Trump wins, a man who seems in many of his statements a man not in keeping with the American constitution, and follows through with those comments, what would people think about the military getting involved?
But there is a constitution there nonetheless. Dwazzas comment was that Erdogan is not following the secular nature if the constitution and therefore effectively the coup is justified. So if a president starts to deviate strongly from that constitution, do people support them intervening in politics?
Your army is also very different from the Turkish army. Living in an advanced country with a real democracy, it seems to realise it has no place to play in politics.
But because turkey has a long history of coups, what does that mean? That further ones are justified? Sorry I don't quite get this comment.
Yeah, I can understand your pov, I disagree with it because secularism in places like Turkey and much of the Islamic world just doesn't work, and likely never will do.
It's the same situation with places like China and Singapore. Both have no democracy, but they're economic development puts the rest of the world to shame.
For me, I see modern western democracy as being a fallacy. It's not democracy when big money can have such an insidious influence on the process, and it's not democracy when governments in the UK can be elected into office on comparatively huge majorities when their share of the vote is considerably smaller in comparison.
Put it this way, our lauded democracy landed us deep in the shitter a few weeks ago, with almost half of the population wanting to subvert the democratic process because they didn't agree with the result. Doesn't that prove just how superficial and full of BS the modern democratic process has become?
It's the same situation with places like China and Singapore. Both have no democracy, but they're economic development puts the rest of the world to shame.
For me, I see modern western democracy as being a fallacy. It's not democracy when big money can have such an insidious influence on the process, and it's not democracy when governments in the UK can be elected into office on comparatively huge majorities when their share of the vote is considerably smaller in comparison.
Put it this way, our lauded democracy landed us deep in the shitter a few weeks ago, with almost half of the population wanting to subvert the democratic process because they didn't agree with the result. Doesn't that prove just how superficial and full of BS the modern democratic process has become?
It's not Turkey's particular secularists that are seen as paragons of virtue; it's the concept of secularism that is seen as fundamentally important in the West. You obviously don't share this viewpoint. But even if Atatürk was a genocidal dictator (and he was), secularism itself is still a very good thing. It's far better than the alternative.
the military doesn´t need to get involved in the USA. Political opposition and courts can do the job. At least in any realistic scenario. In Turkey the situation seems to be quite different and these groups struggle to hold him accountable. What do you think about his current reforms? They are now inevitable and in the end turkey won´t be a democracy any more. He is already prosecuting MPs, politicians, journalists, intellectuals, and other influential people for ridiculous reasons to silence them.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. A failed coup is really the worst of all worlds, because now Erdogan will be able to crush any opposition, that is left.
I am not supporting Erdogan, how did you come up with that? I support him in this case though because I have to choose between him and military, and this military is probably worse option than him.
But in general, I don't support Erdogan.
As for the hypocritical thing, supporting secularism and military's politics is hypocricy itself.
China's economic development is not something the West could copy. It's something the West has already gone through (industrialization, urbanisation etc.). It has nothing to do with the merits of democracy.