Transgender rights discussion

[Gehrman]

I have no interest in saying who is or isn't a woman, I want people to tell me who they are and I'll be fine with it.

If people want to mix two different concepts, then either they don't know better, which is fair enough, it's a matter of getting informed; or they do it on purpose to devalue transgender people, like J.K. does, in that case, you're just a horrible person.

My personal philosophy is treating transwomen i meet in real life as women out of courtesy and because they have it hard enough. It doesn't change my fundamental belief what a women is though. Which is the traditional view.

 

[maniak]

I think most people haven't thought that deeply into it or as Gehrman/Shamans2 says, the two concepts are so intertwined for most, they struggle to separate them.

I perfectly understand that and I've talked to loads of people like that. If they don't it out of malice, I'm kinda ok with it, especially if it's older folks who are stuck in their mindset.

But folks like J.K. know pretty well what the difference is, and use these confusing semantics to shit on transgender people and make life much harder for them.

 

[maniak]

My personal philosophy is treating transwomen i meet in real life as women out of courtesy and because they have it hard enough. It doesn't change my fundamental belief what a women is though. Which is the traditional view.

I've been there. Knowing transgender women in real life, not just read about them online, changed my mindset without any effort, it just happened naturally and now I see them as women, not to be nice but because it just happens.

 

[Jippy]

I perfectly understand that and I've talked to loads of people like that. If they don't it out of malice, I'm kinda ok with it, especially if it's older folks who are stuck in their mindset.

But folks like J.K. know pretty well what the difference is, and use these confusing semantics to shit on transgender people and make life much harder for them.

There's also the added complication of trans women are women, but not in certain scenarios, eg sporting situations.

Either way, the shit that trans people face is horrific and treating people with respect and kindness costs nothing. It's odd that billionaires like J.K. and Musk end up such sad people, trolling online.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

There's also the added complication of trans women are women, but not in certain scenarios, eg sporting situations.

Either way, the shit that trans people face is horrific and treating people with respect and kindness costs nothing. It's odd that billionaires like J.K. and Musk end up such sad people, trolling online.

Musk too?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There's also the added complication of trans women are women, but not in certain scenarios, eg sporting situations.

Either way, the shit that trans people face is horrific and treating people with respect and kindness costs nothing. It's odd that billionaires like J.K. and Musk end up such sad people, trolling online.

Yeah, that’s the bottom line. I see loads of conflicted ideas and double standards when it comes to feminism and trans ideology and the whole fairness in sport thing is a big issue all by itself. All of which I often can’t help myself arguing about on this place. Because I’m an argumentative bastard. But how empty must their life be if someone in a position of influence and power decides that the best way to use their reach is to make trans people feel shitty? I guess they convince themselves they’re an advocate for women but the vast vast majority of women would disagree with them about basically everything they say on the issue.

 

[moses]

It’s interesting to me the way, during Covid, the left were so willing to defer to the opinion of experts (which was, obviously, the correct thing to do) but when medical experts produce a report on something that doesn’t align with their pre-existing world view a cohort of them start rallying around online to frantically try and pick holes in expert opinions and start ad hominem attacks on those who did the research behind them. Which all feels very familiar, only with a different topic and cast of characters.

I think if you speak about the left or the right in terms of such general human traits, and not ideology, you are only showing your own bias, not theirs. That selectivity is a human trait, which you are displaying too.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think if you speak about the left or the right in terms of such general human traits, and not ideology, you are only showing your own bias, not theirs. That selectivity is a human trait, which you are displaying too.

I’m talking about the culture war, moses. In that context, “the left” is a fairly well demarcated cohort.

 

[moses]

I’m talking about the culture war, moses. In that context, “the left” is a fairly well demarcated cohort.

Yeah, and they behave like any cohort of humans. Both sides cherry-pick data. You are factually right, but the issue/bias is in the implication that it's specific to the left.

 

[VorZakone]

So what's wrong with this definition of a woman? And what does female mean here?

A woman is an adult female human being.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

So what's wrong with this definition of a woman? And what does female mean here?

I would suggest it is problematic because it conflates gender (woman) and sex (female).

 

[VorZakone]

I would suggest it is problematic because it conflates gender (woman) and sex (female).

1. What's the alternative (or correct) word for referring to an adult biological woman? Or adult female?
2. What's the correct definition of a 'girl'?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

1. What's the alternative word for referring to an adult biological woman? Or adult female?
2. What's the correct definition of a 'girl'?

1. There isn't. Woman is a gender based description, independent of sex. Female refers to sex. So adult biological woman makes the same error of conflating gender and sex. Adult biological female or adult female would be the correct combination to describe sex.
2. I feel like girl is a gender based description as well. We describe sex as male or female not boy/man girl/woman.

 

[VorZakone]

1. There isn't. Woman is a gender based description, independent of sex. Female refers to sex. So adult biological woman makes the same error of conflating gender and sex. Adult biological female or adult female would be the correct combination to describe sex.
2. I feel like girl is a gender based description as well. We describe sex as male or female not boy/man girl/woman.

"Look at those hot biological female adults across the street!"

Is that how we should talk?

 

[SilentWitness]

"Look at those hot biological female adults across the street!"

Is that how we should talk?

You're not having the impact you think you are with these posts.

 

[maniak]

"Look at those hot biological female adults across the street!"

Is that how we should talk?

No, because no woman will be offended if someone says she's a woman. If you call her a biological man she might not like it though.

 

[VorZakone]

You're not having the impact you think you are with these posts.

So provide me the right term to describe an adult female.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Should preferably drop the exclamation mark, so that those across the street don't have to hear it.

 

[VorZakone]

No, because no woman will be offended if someone says she's a woman. If you call her a biological man she might not like it though.

This isn't about offending or not. What are the correct terms for referring to a female adult or female child if the words 'women' and 'girl' are problematic?

 

[maniak]

This isn't about offending or not. What are the correct terms for referring to a female adult or female child if the words 'women' and 'girl' are problematic?

They aren't problematic, why would they be?

If you see a woman, call her a woman. If you see a transgender woman call her a woman. It's easy, really.

 

[VorZakone]

They aren't problematic, why would they be?

If you see a woman, call her a woman. If you see a transgender woman call her a woman. It's easy, really.

@Dr. Dwayne thinks 'woman' is problematic.

 

[NotThatSoph]

@Dr. Dwayne thinks 'woman' is problematic.

Think you've got your wires crossed there. Dwayne seems to be saying that 'woman' and 'girl' typically refers to gender, not sex, and is therefore not very impressed by the definition you linked to. It was not a criticism of using the terms at all.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

@Dr. Dwayne thinks 'woman' is problematic.

You posted a definition I suggested was problematic. Not the word.

 

[maniak]

@Dr. Dwayne thinks 'woman' is problematic.

The definition you provided is problematic, not the word woman.

 

[maniak]

Think you've got your wires crossed there. Dwayne seems to be saying that 'woman' and 'girl' typically refers to gender, not sex, and is therefore not very impressed by the definition you linked to. It was not a criticism of using the terms at all.

You posted a definition I suggested was problematic. Not the word.

The definition you provided is problematic, not the word woman.

Damn, all in the space of 30 seconds.

 

[VorZakone]

Think you've got your wires crossed there. Dwayne seems to be saying that 'woman' and 'girl' typically refers to gender, not sex, and is therefore not very impressed by the definition you linked to. It was not a criticism of using the terms at all.

You posted a definition I suggested was problematic. Not the word.

The definition you provided is problematic, not the word woman.

Again, you think the definition is wrong because it conflates gender with sex. So my question is: what term should I use to describe an adult female? What word is correct to fit the definition "X describes an adult female human being".

 

[maniak]

Again, you think the definition is wrong because it conflates gender with sex. So my question is: what term should I use to describe an adult female? What word is correct to fit the definition "X describes an adult female human being".

Mate, an adult female will in most cases be a woman, but not always, that's why you can't define it that way. If you see a transgender man you're not going to call him a women, are you?

 

[Mike Smalling]

Again, you think the definition is wrong because it conflates gender with sex. So my question is: what term should I use to describe an adult female? What word is correct to fit the definition "X describes an adult female human being".

Why does there have to be a single word for this? "Adult female" describes perfectly want you want to describe.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Again, you think the definition is wrong because it conflates gender with sex. So my question is: what term should I use to describe an adult female? What word is correct to fit the definition "X describes an adult female human being".

I struggle to think of a scenario where you would ever need one. Is 'adult female' too long or something?

 

[VorZakone]

Why does there have to be a single word for this? "Adult female" describes perfectly want you want to describe.

This is literally what incels are made fun of, for using the words "females" instead of "women". That aside, why shouldn't there be a word? Are you suggesting we should have no words to describe a female adult or female child?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Again, you think the definition is wrong because it conflates gender with sex. So my question is: what term should I use to describe an adult female? What word is correct to fit the definition "X describes an adult female human being".

Female if you are talking about her biological sex (of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.)

Woman or girl if you are just referring to appearance/identity.

 

[VorZakone]

I struggle to think of a scenario where you would ever need one. Is 'adult female' too long or something?

To clarify your position here: should we not have words to refer to female adults or female childs?

 

[Mike Smalling]

This is literally what incels are made fun of, for using the words "females" instead of "women". That aside, why shouldn't there be a word? Are you suggesting we should have no words to describe a female adult or female child?

I don't really see how incels are relevant here, and I'm not saying there shouldn't be a single word for it either. But right now it just seems to me, that you can use the word "woman" if you see someone you think is a woman, because they present that way. If you need to be particular or precise, for whatever reason, you can use "adult female" or "cis woman". I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

To clarify your position here: should we not have words to refer to female adults or female childs?

Child is indeed the word you're looking for.

 

[NotThatSoph]

To clarify your position here: should we not have words to refer to female adults or female childs?

Generally we should have the words people want to have, that's sort of how language works. I don't know who these people are that are going around talking about adult females all the time, but if they exist and this bothers them, then maybe they can get the ball rolling and come up with a shorter term.

Typically people talk about boys and girls, men and women, not males and females.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

maybe they can get the ball rolling and come up with a shorter term.

Personally, I've always liked the terms chicks and dudes.

 

[berbatrick]

So what's wrong with this definition of a woman? And what does female mean here?

I have no idea, especially in this context, what female means. And I think context matters. What is the dictionary definition of a species?

 

[VorZakone]

Generally we should have the words people want to have, that's sort of how language works. I don't know who these people are that are going around talking about adult females all the time, but if they exist and this bothers them, then maybe they can get the ball rolling and come up with a shorter term.

Typically people talk about boys and girls, men and women, not males and females.

Typically, people use the words boys, girls, men and women because it's pretty established language. And we know what they usually mean. A girl is a female child. A man is an adult male.

Your argument is basically that those terms are linguistically (?) wrong. Because a man isn't supposed to be defined as an "adult male". The word 'man' does not fit that specific definition. So we've all been using the wrong term to refer to an adult male.

That's your position, no?

 

[VorZakone]

Child is indeed the word you're looking for.

"I have 2 children."
"Boys or girls?"
"Just children".

 

[NotThatSoph]

Typically, people use the words boys, girls, men and women because it's pretty established language. And we know what they usually mean. A girl is a female child. A man is an adult male.

Your argument is basically that those terms are linguistically (?) wrong. Because a man isn't supposed to be defined as an "adult male". The word 'man' does not fit that specific definition. So we've all been using the wrong term to refer to an adult male.

That's your position, no?

In what sense? If Laverne Cox was one of those people on the other side of the street, and you called her a man, then people would probably look at you funny.