Transgender rights discussion

NotThatSoph said:
The Useful Idiots Fueling the Right-Wing Transphobia Panic

This is about the article I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle, published by Bari Weiss's new project that is also publishing Rowling's new podcast PR campaign "The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling".

It's a tried and true recepie: a pro trans person wants to help, realises that something is very, very wrong, and now has to let people know. She claimed to have witnessed a bunch of ruined lifes, where insecure and confused kids come in and practically get bombarded with blockers and hormones, often with serious side effects. This made quite a stir, of course in right wing circles but also among the libs and centrists. The American Prospect specifically mention Jonathan Chait and Matthew Yglesias as examples of high profile people talking about it, but it was all over.

It was all made up.
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By “it was all made up” you actually mean a different journalist tracked down a few people who disagreed with the version of events provided by the author (who is married to a trans man) of the original article? (A version of events they also provided in a sworn affidavit)

Because that’s not the usual definition of “all made up”.
 
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NotThatSoph said:
Yes, all stories like hers are made up. All medications have a risk of side-effects, but she lied about the kind and prevalence, and she lied about the process of how medication is prescribed.

She talked about how kids come in there believing they're a mushroom and gets put on pills right away.
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My question specifically was if such stories are always made up or not.
 
NotThatSoph said:
What such stories?
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The sort you mentioned: "She claimed to have witnessed a bunch of ruined lifes, where insecure and confused kids come in and practically get bombarded with blockers and hormones, often with serious side effects"

This is a pretty common theme isn't it? Some documentary or video series on the same issues.
 
shamans said:
The sort you mentioned: "She claimed to have witnessed a bunch of ruined lifes, where insecure and confused kids come in and practically get bombarded with blockers and hormones, often with serious side effects"

This is a pretty common theme isn't it? Some documentary or video series on the same issues.
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Yes, you don't get bombarded with blockers or hormone therapy, it's a long process, and while serious side effects can happen they are rare.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Yes, you don't get bombarded with blockers or hormone therapy, it's a long process, and while serious side effects can happen they are rare.
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Well I don’t know. Can’t claim to have researched the background of every story but there’s definitely some cases that sound wrong to me. It’s this weird grey area for me especially when it comes to kids who have gender dysmorphia possibly because I don’t fully understand this yet.

If you think none of those stories are true it makes sense. My point was if just one person was lying who cares the broader issue matters
 
shamans said:
If you think none of those stories are true it makes sense. My point was if just one person was lying who cares the broader issue matters
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Is there a broader issue? You seem convinced there is. Pretending that conversion medications are given to kids like candies is one of the biggest right wing smokescreen.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
By “it was all made up” you actually mean a different journalist tracked down a few people who disagreed with the version of events provided by the author (who is married to a trans man) of the original article? (A version of events they also provided in a sworn affidavit)

Because that’s not the usual definition of “all made up”.
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That one witness claims that patients were given hormones immediately after arrival, and because they were identifying as rocks and "helicopters" (you are online enough to know what "identifying as helicopters" means in this context).

The parents (interviewed by 4 different publications independently) say that there was a policy of a multiple-month delay before any treatment was started. Nobody mentions rocksor helicopters, including parents who didn't like the clinic, but acknowledged that their kids were happier.

Those portray two diametrically opposed realities.

The presence of "helicopter" in one story makes me think it has the credibility of a Bluemoon "rag mate", but it does have a positive writeup from chief centrist Jonathan Chait of NY Mag :)
 
shamans said:
Well I don’t know. Can’t claim to have researched the background of every story but there’s definitely some cases that sound wrong to me. It’s this weird grey area for me especially when it comes to kids who have gender dysmorphia possibly because I don’t fully understand this yet.

If you think none of those stories are true it makes sense. My point was if just one person was lying who cares the broader issue matters
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I struggled with this initially when one of my kids was going through "the change" as we called it, because it was all alien to us. Even when their biogical dad was being a cnut about it and his parents, who they see often - a heavily Christian group of mental feckwits who wouldn't understand the words of Jesus if they lamped over the head with with - decided to disown my kid, and their own mum was being a bit forceful towards them about it , I just said "feck it, you do you, I'll love you until the end of time mate."

I adore my kids but obviously there's always that little part of you that thinks "maybe it's a trend, like previous eras were teenagers decide they're goths or neds depending on what their friends do?" But then there's also the part of you that says "feck off, my kids know what they're doing, if this is who they are then that's the end of the discussion" and another part that says "feck off, let them figure it out of their own either way".

In every case - it genuinely doesn't matter what I think. It isn't my life. It's theirs. And they have the right to choose, and we have a duty to listen and try to understand it as much as we can. If we fall short then keep trying to understand it.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I struggled with this initially when one of my kids was going through "the change" as we called it, because it was all alien to us. Even when their biogical dad was being a cnut about it and his parents, who they see often - a heavily Christian group of mental feckwits who wouldn't understand the words of Jesus if they lamped over the head with with - decided to disown my kid, and their own mum was being a bit forceful towards them about it , I just said "feck it, you do you, I'll love you until the end of time mate."

I adore my kids but obviously there's always that little part of you that thinks "maybe it's a trend, like previous eras were teenagers decide they're goths or neds depending on what their friends do?" But then there's also the part of you that says "feck off, my kids know what they're doing, if this is who they are then that's the end of the discussion" and another part that says "feck off, let them figure it out of their own either way".

In every case - it genuinely doesn't matter what I think. It isn't my life. It's theirs. And they have the right to choose, and we have a duty to listen and try to understand it as much as we can. If we fall short then keep trying to understand it.
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You sound great. In case this sounds sarcastic it's very much not.

In general, I wouldn't blame parents for being uncertain or confused, even critical as long as they don't impact the kids negatively. It's a very personal subject, it's complicated, and it's relatively new as something treated seriously both medically and s a society.

The liars making up stories about helicopters, though, Jesus Christ, feck right off. It's hard to not despise the people taking those obvious lies seriously, as well, but for some it's a combination of ignorance and just not caring, and depending on the distribution I guess it could be worse.
 
berbatrick said:
That one witness claims that patients were given hormones immediately after arrival, and because they were identifying as rocks and "helicopters" (you are online enough to know what "identifying as helicopters" means in this context).

The parents (interviewed by 4 different publications independently) say that there was a policy of a multiple-month delay before any treatment was started. Nobody mentions rocksor helicopters, including parents who didn't like the clinic, but acknowledged that their kids were happier.

Those portray two diametrically opposed realities.

The presence of "helicopter" in one story makes me think it has the credibility of a Bluemoon "rag mate", but it does have a positive writeup from chief centrist Jonathan Chait of NY Mag :)
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This is the article that was accused of being “all made up” in the post I responded to. Not one mention of helicopters or rocks. So it does seem that something really might have been “all made up”? Fair point.
 
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Mr Pigeon said:
I struggled with this initially when one of my kids was going through "the change" as we called it, because it was all alien to us. Even when their biogical dad was being a cnut about it and his parents, who they see often - a heavily Christian group of mental feckwits who wouldn't understand the words of Jesus if they lamped over the head with with - decided to disown my kid, and their own mum was being a bit forceful towards them about it , I just said "feck it, you do you, I'll love you until the end of time mate."

I adore my kids but obviously there's always that little part of you that thinks "maybe it's a trend, like previous eras were teenagers decide they're goths or neds depending on what their friends do?" But then there's also the part of you that says "feck off, my kids know what they're doing, if this is who they are then that's the end of the discussion" and another part that says "feck off, let them figure it out of their own either way".

In every case - it genuinely doesn't matter what I think. It isn't my life. It's theirs. And they have the right to choose, and we have a duty to listen and try to understand it as much as we can. If we fall short then keep trying to understand it.
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Thanks for the context and good on you for providing your child with the most important and powerful tool — unconditional love. Even when it can be confusing.

My thoughts would be that kids don’t always really know what they want do they? I think of myself when I was 15 or even 17 and I absolutely cringe at my ideas of life or what I thought I was but then I didn’t have confusion over my gender or sexuality so I really can’t comment to that either.

I have never been in this situation with a friend or family member so as I said initially I simply don’t know enough. It’s difficult for me to understand and when I do read or see certain stories of kids who had hormonal changes to their gender only to regret it later I find it plausible only because of my own understanding of how it was when I was a kid. They could all be lies.
 
nimic said:
Literally cannot tell if this is satire or not. It could be satire. But it could also be genuine. But it could also be satire? But...
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using this one principle to understand all US politics

 
shamans said:
Thanks for the context and good on you for providing your child with the most important and powerful tool — unconditional love. Even when it can be confusing.

My thoughts would be that kids don’t always really know what they want do they? I think of myself when I was 15 or even 17 and I absolutely cringe at my ideas of life or what I thought I was but then I didn’t have confusion over my gender or sexuality so I really can’t comment to that either.

I have never been in this situation with a friend or family member so as I said initially I simply don’t know enough. It’s difficult for me to understand and when I do read or see certain stories of kids who had hormonal changes to their gender only to regret it later I find it plausible only because of my own understanding of how it was when I was a kid. They could all be lies.
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There are some real stories about people having regrets later, what I said are lies are the stories about how quickly and uncritically they are put on hormones.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I struggled with this initially when one of my kids was going through "the change" as we called it, because it was all alien to us. Even when their biogical dad was being a cnut about it and his parents, who they see often - a heavily Christian group of mental feckwits who wouldn't understand the words of Jesus if they lamped over the head with with - decided to disown my kid, and their own mum was being a bit forceful towards them about it , I just said "feck it, you do you, I'll love you until the end of time mate."

I adore my kids but obviously there's always that little part of you that thinks "maybe it's a trend, like previous eras were teenagers decide they're goths or neds depending on what their friends do?" But then there's also the part of you that says "feck off, my kids know what they're doing, if this is who they are then that's the end of the discussion" and another part that says "feck off, let them figure it out of their own either way".

In every case - it genuinely doesn't matter what I think. It isn't my life. It's theirs. And they have the right to choose, and we have a duty to listen and try to understand it as much as we can. If we fall short then keep trying to understand it.
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Bravo, brother. If only more people in key positions of authority had your same view...
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I struggled with this initially when one of my kids was going through "the change" as we called it, because it was all alien to us. Even when their biogical dad was being a cnut about it and his parents, who they see often - a heavily Christian group of mental feckwits who wouldn't understand the words of Jesus if they lamped over the head with with - decided to disown my kid, and their own mum was being a bit forceful towards them about it , I just said "feck it, you do you, I'll love you until the end of time mate."

I adore my kids but obviously there's always that little part of you that thinks "maybe it's a trend, like previous eras were teenagers decide they're goths or neds depending on what their friends do?" But then there's also the part of you that says "feck off, my kids know what they're doing, if this is who they are then that's the end of the discussion" and another part that says "feck off, let them figure it out of their own either way".

In every case - it genuinely doesn't matter what I think. It isn't my life. It's theirs. And they have the right to choose, and we have a duty to listen and try to understand it as much as we can. If we fall short then keep trying to understand it.
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You're a legend Pidgey.
 
pierrethesnack said:
Is this kind of rethoric making a comeback in American politics or did it never go away?
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It never went away, but was said far, far less than now. These Babble thumper are very emboldened to spread the word of their true god, all else be damned.

The real crappy thing is many states have legislatures that are deep red & there really can’t be changes for at least two generations or more. This is mainly where the emboldened nature comes from.
 
berbatrick said:
That one witness claims that patients were given hormones immediately after arrival, and because they were identifying as rocks and "helicopters" (you are online enough to know what "identifying as helicopters" means in this context).
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What does it mean? Genuinely as I have no idea what the hidden context is.
 
calodo2003 said:
It never went away, but was said far, far less than now. These Babble thumper are very emboldened to spread the word of their true god, all else be damned.

The real crappy thing is many states have legislatures that are deep red & there really can’t be changes for at least two generations or more. This is mainly where the emboldened nature comes from.
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Alright. It's one of those things I find a bit hard to grasp. I'm more than used to right wingers/conservatives, but over here it doesn't really take on the religious form in any meaningful way.
 
NotThatSoph said:
The Useful Idiots Fueling the Right-Wing Transphobia Panic

This is about the article I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle, published by Bari Weiss's new project that is also publishing Rowling's new podcast PR campaign "The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling".

It's a tried and true recepie: a pro trans person wants to help, realises that something is very, very wrong, and now has to let people know. She claimed to have witnessed a bunch of ruined lifes, where insecure and confused kids come in and practically get bombarded with blockers and hormones, often with serious side effects. This made quite a stir, of course in right wing circles but also among the libs and centrists. The American Prospect specifically mention Jonathan Chait and Matthew Yglesias as examples of high profile people talking about it, but it was all over.

It was all made up.
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More on this.

Parents push back on allegations against St. Louis transgender center. ‘I’m baffled.’

The Post-Dispatch has interviewed around 20 parents of kids that have used the clinic, and none of them confirm Reed's allegations. Reed has released a statement about this, saying that it's not surprising that those with negative experiences haven't come forward because privacy, but 1) several people are anonymous, which of course also would be an option for them, and 2) one of the parents is critical of the clinic and the treatment, while still disputing Reed's claims.

Chait is still holding strong on Twitter, because one of the parents interviewed is an activist.
 
2 man midfield said:
He said more bathrooms are needed so everyone is happy, seems fair enough to me.
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The law that he is trying to pass says people need to use the bathroom of their biological gender. The question was about the practicalities of that law.
The law is what he is actually doing, waffling about how glad he is that the young man came with him father and a vague desire for there to be more bathrooms is just avoiding the question
 
rumac said:
The law that he is trying to pass says people need to use the bathroom of their biological gender. The question was about the practicalities of that law.
The law is what he is actually doing, waffling about how glad he is that the young man came with him father and a vague desire for there to be more bathrooms is just avoiding the question
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Yeah, so he was asking if, as is currently required, he is supposed to use the bathroom of his biological gender (female) whether the girls in that female bathroom would be happy if he walked in - i.e this law is going to cause problems.

His answer was we need more gender neutral bathrooms so that both parties are happy. I think he answered the question in a way that kept everyone happy. In reality more bathrooms is the only solution that pleases everyone isn’t it?
 
2 man midfield said:
Yeah, so he was asking if, as is currently required, he is supposed to use the bathroom of his biological gender (female) whether the girls in that female bathroom would be happy if he walked in - i.e this law is going to cause problems.

His answer was we need more gender neutral bathrooms so that both parties are happy. I think he answered the question in a way that kept everyone happy. In reality more bathrooms is the only solution that pleases everyone isn’t it?
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OK. But those bathrooms don't yet exist. The law does or is about to. Which bathroom is this young man meant to use in the meantime? That's the question, which he didn't answer.
 
rumac said:
OK. But those bathrooms don't yet exist. The law does or is about to. Which bathroom is this young man meant to use in the meantime? That's the question, which he didn't answer.
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The female one I’d imagine since that’s the law he’s apparently about to pass. He did dodge half the question though in terms of whether or not the other girls would be happy with that, but went on to say that we need more gender neutral bathrooms. It’s also a question without an easy answer as you’re always going to be pissing somebody off.
 
2 man midfield said:
The female one I’d imagine since that’s the law he’s apparently about to pass. He did dodge half the question though in terms of whether or not the other girls would be happy with that, but went on to say that we need more gender neutral bathrooms. It’s also a question without an easy answer as you’re always going to be pissing somebody off.
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I dunno, it seems pretty easy to me, he's a transgender man, he should go the men's bathroom. Is there any downside to that I'm missing?
 
maniak said:
I dunno, it seems pretty easy to me, he's a transgender man, he should go the men's bathroom. Is there any downside to that I'm missing?
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Depends what opposition there is to that I guess. If there’s massive outcry about it, do you just press on and say feck the rest of you? Or as a politician do you address their concerns, especially if they’re the majority. You’re probably going to try and find a solution that keeps everybody happy.
 
2 man midfield said:
Depends what opposition there is to that I guess. If there’s massive outcry about it, do you just press on and say feck the rest of you? Or as a politician do you address their concerns, especially if they’re the majority. You’re probably going to try and find a solution that keeps everybody happy.
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When it comes to basic rights? Sure, just press on.

Do you personally see any downside in allowing transgender men using male bathrooms? I've never met any men who would give two fecks about it.
 
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