Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
- Start date
A lot of news at the moment surrounding the Scottish Government's latest reforms and I'd be interested to hear some of your thoughts about it? Is the removal of a medical diagnosis a good or bad thing in particular?
I'm interested in that too. I've been pretty busy with various things at work and haven't had chance to read up extensively on the policy- the pros, safeguards etc...
A similar policy has been in place in Ireland since 2015 with no issue and very little pushback prior to trans rights becoming a culture war-esque issue in the last couple of years.
Going back a few years before the bigotry and fearmongering hit fever pitch, it was a stated policy goal of a Tory Prime Minister (May).
Going back a few years before the bigotry and fearmongering hit fever pitch, it was a stated policy goal of a Tory Prime Minister (May).
For trans women it can only be a good thing. It offers simplicity and respect.
I do still have questions about adolescents taking such a step as it's a time when many people go through crises - about their sexuality, their appearance and even their disparate skills, interests and personalities. But then I'd like to see support for them anyway, and I'm not sure that making a medical hurdle for them to jump is the same as support.
Is there potential for abuse of such a rule? For sure. The potential for abuse is high in areas where there may be an advantage to being defined as a woman - whether that's in something like competitive sport or access to a female only space. A big issue numerically? I doubt it. But it still has to be taken seriously in those limited and specific situations.
Scotland say they're doing that already - if that's true I don't see a problem. Provided it doesn't create a string of cynical or frivolous lawsuits or ultimately end up forcing people to reveal deeply personal or medical information in a more public way.
as someone quite succinctly put it to the newsreader on sky news: 'when was the last time you had to show your birth certificate when you went to the toilet?'
I'm not even sure when was the last time I saw a gender-specific bathroom outside of the gym or other locker-room situations. It's all unisex otherwise.
I guess the airport too, come to think of it.
I doubt @jojojo is alluding to toilets. The whole sport thing is very complex (and has a mega thread already dedicated to it) but the other issues to consider would be hostels for the homeless, prisons, women’s refuge accommodation etc Basically any kind of residential accommodation which might be segregated by gender. All the more tricky when you consider how vulnerable some of the clients may be.
not suggesting that jojojo is a terf, but bathrooms are the number 1 space that terfs bring up when this is discussed, that and changing rooms.
the likelihood of a man applying for a false GRC, living as a different gender for 3 months and needing to prove that, obtaining a lawyer to go through the legal process, risk an additional charge of falsely applying for a GRC, just to gain access to a niche women's space like those you mention, instead of just - walking into a women's bathroom, or attacking a woman in a park or street, or attacking someone already in their life (which is unfortunately the vast majority of cases) - is basically zero. this can be evidenced by the fact there have been exactly 0 cases in any of the 14 countries that have self-id in place over numerous years.
it's fear mongering nonsense, without any data to support it, and the tories are only involved because a culture war is all they have left to desperately cling to power. shame on them, and shame on labour for not opposing it.
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Ireland's had this law for 7 years, how many cases have there been in that time where a man has used self-ID to gain access to one of these spaces and harm women?
I have absolutely no idea. And I’m not saying it’s an insurmountable obstacle. Just something which needs to be considered. More so than toilets anyway.
Speaking of gender neutral toilets this sounds like a more tangible (and horrifying) risk.
From my favourite account on Twitter.
From my favourite account on Twitter.
As @Pogue Mahone suggested, I'm not really thinking about loos - predators don't care about signs on doors or legal recognition, so I don't see that as a significant issue.
It's the issues around places like women's refuges and women's prisons that do have to be addressed. But the thing is, those situations are the outliers - and they always have to address issues about unsuitable placements, so I'm assuming the professionals involved have the knowledge and sensitivity to do it. I'm hoping they also have the resources. The Scottish government say they've already put those in place - so I'm assuming they're right.
When it comes to shelters/refuges it seems like the best option would be to develop a process for transwomen and have the state put them up anonymously in a hotel. Not the best solution as far as being inclusive goes but this involves a very vulnerable group that needs protecting from the men who want to harm them and the possibility of an abusive male being unscrupulous in gaining access should be considered.
For prisons I'm sure they can apply a rigorous screening process to ensure someone isn't pretending to avoid doing time in a men's correctional facility.
This was one thing I wasn't clear about in the Scottish bill- whether 16 year olds wanting to change their gender identity would be required to talk to specialists about the process, the challenges it would entail etc before they could proceed? Not medical tests, but more having proper discussions to ensure it's right for them.
Age restrictions are somewhat random, eg you're not trusted to get a tattoo until you're 18, but you can change gender at 16.
Trans health care is broken as it is, so it does need changing. If a state requires a doctor's sign off (as the UK does) it is unconscionable that the waiting times for appointments are measured in years.
Abigail Thorn did a deep dive into the problems in a 90 minute video for Philosophy Tube, using her own experiences as a barometer. It was that long as there is so much to unpack and critique sadly.
As far as I can see you still need to discuss your transition with experts and it'll be determined that it's the right call? You just don't need to start the process off with a doctor who won't necessarily have expertise on the subject, which can cause lots of delays.
That's what I hope is the case, anyway. I think it is?
Thankfully this was killed in committee, but imagine waking up one day thinking that it would be a swell idea to monetarily harm trans people for being themselves…
agreed on the first point.
the thing is that the proposed GRC bill blocked by the UK doesn't have anything to do with single sex spaces, access to those spaces is governed by the Equality Act. The GRC basically just effects marriage and death. it was a fairly basic bill which is only controversial because - culture war.
He should be fined for that hair. Appalling.
It's Garnacho's haircut at an advanced age.
does Rowling think ‘eat the rich’ mean literally eating rich people too? I know she’s a shite writer and all…
heating up in the US again, with multiple fretting articles in the liberal mainstream (NYT and atlantic). This was the reaction from a trans account i follow:
He wrote a column in the Express on Sunday talking about how to promote true manhood.
Also, what the hell?
dark times
this insidious framing of lgbt rights being in opposition to women's is how equality dies. it may trick boomers but i'm really hopeful the future generations (continue to) see through it.
A large wardrobe with a small key sticking out of the lock
Pretty sure the "Decapitate" sign is technically illegal in the UK. That's a fecking stupid thing to bring to a rally.
Oh god!
“History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce.”
Yeah hopefully this is case, it does seem like a generational divide(Also it’s far worse in English politics than in Scotland or Ireland).
Nothing to with transphobia but holy shit. “Slavic eyes” is something a German from the early 1940’s would say.
Yea, I mean because Eastern European, or any non-English speaking countries, characters never speak broken English in any other media before.
he shouting that she gives boyfriend too much moneys, and she very bad with him
Dunno if all these clips of her writing posted triumphantly on Twitter are the confirmation of her being a vile bigot that the tweeter thinks they are.
What they do confirm, however, is that she’s a terrible writer. Should have stuck with books for kids.
What they do confirm, however, is that she’s a terrible writer. Should have stuck with books for kids.
What is a woman?
I've been meaning to tell you
I've got this feeling
That won't subside
I look at you and I fantasize
You're mine tonight
Now I've got you in my sights
With these slavic eyes
One look at you
And I can't disguise
I've got slavic eyes
I feel the magic between you and I
I've got this feeling
That won't subside
I look at you and I fantasize
You're mine tonight
Now I've got you in my sights
With these slavic eyes
One look at you
And I can't disguise
I've got slavic eyes
I feel the magic between you and I