Transgender rights discussion

jeff_goldblum said:
I'm not sure what point you're making here. I'm saying that she has a habit of inserting her political views into her writing, that particular book was just an obvious example.
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The point I’m making is that she got politicised (arguably radicalised) by the ongoing bun fight on Twitter. And this is now influencing here books. Which was not the case at all when she was first writing about wizards and elves and shit like that.
 
It's not like it's a new thing for fiction writers to insert their ideology into the story. Lewis didn't need a twitter war to make Narnia about Christianity. Crichton put his anti-science views at the heart of his books.
 
I’m uneasy saying that people like Rowling and Linehan were radicalised ‘by Twitter’… as it removes their agency to just be terrible people.
 
Mockney said:
I’m uneasy saying that people like Rowling and Linehan were radicalised ‘by Twitter’… as it removes their agency to just be terrible people.
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A little from column A, a little from column B. There’s always agency when someone ends up being radicalised online. Which doesn’t remove the importance of the toxic cesspit that shapes them.
 
You lot are going to LOVE American Psycho... Clearly bret Easton Ellis should be locked up as a misogynist.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The point I’m making is that she got politicised (arguably radicalised) by the ongoing bun fight on Twitter. And this is now influencing here books. Which was not the case at all when she was first writing about wizards and elves and shit like that.
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The Harry Potter books clearly have political themes and plots in the later editions, though. Especially the 5th through 7th. The main bad guy is motivated by his political ideology, there is the activist stuff about the house elves, the clear failings of the ministry and how they use the media to cover it up, etc. That's not really for discussion.

People in this thread are not arguing that she set out to write a series of children/young adult novels to influence a generation with her political beliefs. Rather it's that her beliefs naturally shine through to some extent, even in her early writing. But I do agree with you, that's it is quite likely that she has been motivated at least somewhat by all the Twitter nonsense to write later books like Troubled Blood, for example.

Also, the implied point that a piece of fiction can't be political because it has wizards and elves is just lazy. Can Animal Farm not be political because it has a bunch of talking animals?
 
Cascarino said:
Lucas has been pretty open about how Star Wars was conceived as a reaction to Nixon's presidency, and the Vietnam war.
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He took some inspiration for that but I'm not sure what conclusions you can draw about Lucas' politics from that.

This is just the same game Christian conservatives play with "liberal Hollywood" but from the other side, mining creative work to caricature its creators. You (in the broad sense) reject it there, you should reject it here too
 
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I never read chr
nimic said:
It's not like it's a new thing for fiction writers to insert their ideology into the story. Lewis didn't need a twitter war to make Narnia about Christianity. Crichton put his anti-science views at the heart of his books.
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I never read chrichton as anti science. His books, and I've read most of them, are about the use science is put to by immoral or incautious people. Also , he really likes theme parks as a plot device. I'm not sure his thrillers would have been very interesting if they'd been about science going brilliantly.

Lewis was writing a book specifically to be a Christian allegory.

Rowling is currently writing what she knows, as authors do.

At the end of the day popular authors only have one responsibility, and that's to keep their readers turning pages. A lot gets engineered to that end. There is nothing duller than the author going on a little lecture about something they really care about.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
So are we concluding that this middle aged woman maybe held some centrist/conservative political opinions when she wrote the Harry Potter books? The absolute horror. I’m still waiting to be convinced this means she would inevitably become a racist antisemite.
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I just think it's a bit funny that it led her to write a story, where freeing the slave race is seen as a pointless endeavor because the slaves don't really want freedom and will just turn to alcoholism if given freedom. The main point of all this, I guess, is that for a relatively young piece of fiction (the last book being published in 2007) is has aged quite poorly.

In turns of the antisemitism, you are inventing this allegation. At least in the context of this thread. No-one has called her that - just pointed out that there is some unfortunate combination of character design and traits in the movies.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I just think it's a bit funny that it led her to write a story, where freeing the slave race is seen as a pointless endeavor because the slaves don't really want freedom and will just turn to alcoholism if given freedom. The main point of all this, I guess, is that for a relatively young piece of fiction (the last book being published in 2007) is has aged quite poorly.

In turns of the antisemitism, you are inventing this allegation. At least in the context of this thread. No-one has called her that - just pointed out that there is some unfortunate combination of character design and traits in the movies.
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The amount of pontificating over what is essentially a series of kid's fantasy books is quite astounding I have to say.
 
balaks said:
The amount of pontificating over what is essentially a series of kid's fantasy books is quite astounding I have to say.
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I wouldn't say it is really when the books are up there as the best selling of all time. Most people in the modern world will have read or will at least be aware of Harry Potter and the books/movies and thus take influence from it and them.
 
SilentWitness said:
I wouldn't say it is really when the books are up there as the best selling of all time. Most people in the modern world will have read or will at least be aware of Harry Potter and the books/movies and thus take influence from it and them.
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It's still just a series of kid's book about a wizard and his mates. It's hardly the entire works of Shakespeare is it? I absolutely adored Roald Dahl's books but I'm not going to pontificate about the merits of Matilda's plight against her school headmistress or horrible family, or whether Willy Wonka was really a 'good' guy, because I'm not a child anymore and it's just a kid's book I happened to enjoy when I was young.
 
nickm said:
You lot are going to LOVE American Psycho... Clearly bret Easton Ellis should be locked up as a misogynist.
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When you do stuff like this, continually, what is it you're trying to achieve? Is it just mindless trolling, are you deliberately trying to twist what people are saying into a caricature, or do you actually think "Ellis is a misogynist because Bateman is" is even in the same universe as what you're replying to?
 
balaks said:
It's still just a series of kid's book about a wizard and his mates. It's hardly the entire works of Shakespeare is it? I absolutely adored Roald Dahl's books but I'm not going to pontificate about the merits of Matilda's plight against her school headmistress or horrible family because I'm not a child anymore and it's just a kid's book I happened to enjoy when I was young.
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Plenty of academics find Dahl worth talking about.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Plenty of academics find Dahl worth talking about.
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I however am not an academic who needs to look at these things - I am a grown adult who understands they are kid's books and as such are great when you are a kid but are not really worth thinking about in any great detail now I'm no longer a kid. Maybe it's time to move on?
 
balaks said:
The amount of pontificating over what is essentially a series of kid's fantasy books is quite astounding I have to say.
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I don't even really disagree with this, and it's obvious that it never would have reached this level, if J.K. Rowling hadn't brought on so much negative attention to herself with her transphobia. That and some of her later writing has led people to double-click on the Harry Potter series. Still, it remains the best-selling book series of all time, so I don't think a bit of analysis of the themes and messages is totally out of order.

And if you don't find it interesting or important, why engage? Personally, I think it can be quite interesting to take a closer look at pop culture and challenge the media that is consumed en masse. Doesn't mean everyone has to.
 
balaks said:
It's still just a series of kid's book about a wizard and his mates. It's hardly the entire works of Shakespeare is it? I absolutely adored Roald Dahl's books but I'm not going to pontificate about the merits of Matilda's plight against her school headmistress or horrible family, or whether Willy Wonka was really a 'good' guy, because I'm not a child anymore and it's just a kid's book I happened to enjoy when I was young.
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We all know why the text of Harry Potter books are being scoured for ammunition that can be used to criticise the author’s politics in a way that doesn’t happen with, say, the Twilight or Percy Jackson novels. I mean, that’s obvious, right?
 
Mike Smalling said:
I don't even really disagree with this, and it's obvious that it never would have reached this level, if J.K. Rowling hadn't brought on so much negative attention to herself with her transphobia. That and some of her later writing has led people to double-click on the Harry Potter series. Still, it remains the best-selling book series of all time, so I don't think a bit of analysis of the themes and messages is totally out of order.

And if you don't find it interesting or important, why engage? Personally, I think it can be quite interesting to take a closer look at pop culture and challenge the media that is consumed en masse. Doesn't mean everyone has to.
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Oh christ Im not engaging in Harry Potter - I havent even read the books and I could barely sit through about half of the first film, they are utterly shite if you ask me. I just find it extremely difficult to understand why grown men and women think these kid's books are so important that they deserve to be pontificated about over and over. Just because something is very popular does not equate to it being any good, or really being worth anybody's time. I get it that as a kid it's probably an engaging set of books but most of us arent kids anymore (more's the pity). It just appears a bit sad to me. Also, as for that video that somebody shared in the past few pages with a grown man talking trying to pick apart the plot of a bunch of kid's books for an hour and a half - fecking hell really?
 
NotThatSoph said:
When you do stuff like this, continually, what is it you're trying to achieve? Is it just mindless trolling, are you deliberately trying to twist what people are saying into a caricature, or do you actually think "Ellis is a misogynist because Bateman is" is even in the same universe as what you're replying to?
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Think you missed my point. Determining an author's politics from the novels they write, is a mugs game. Some people are mining Harry potter for the smallest inferences to beat her up over. It's silly. It's as silly as inferring anything about Brett Easton Ellis political views from American paycho.
 
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balaks said:
I however am not an academic who needs to look at these things - I am a grown adult who understands they are kid's books and as such are great when you are a kid but are not really worth thinking about in any great detail now I'm no longer a kid. Maybe it's time to move on?
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What's stopping you from moving on and not talk about it yourself if it bothers you that much? You have over 30 messages in this thread alone and thus you're contributing to the discussion quite a lot. You simply can't tell others to stop discussing this, they are not going to.
 
cafecillos said:
What's stopping you from moving on and not talk about it yourself if it bothers you that much? You have over 30 messages in this thread alone and thus you're contributing to the discussion quite a lot. You simply can't tell others to stop discussing this, they are not going to.
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I'm not telling anybody what they can and can't do but I can express my opinion on anything I like thanks very much. If you want to talk endlessly about a children's book be my guest even if it does make you very odd in my eyes. I think people maybe need a bit of perspective here.
 
balaks said:
I'm not telling anybody what they can and can't do but I can express my opinion on anything I like thanks very much. If you want to talk endlessly about a children's book be my guest even if it does make you very odd in my eyes.
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Your opinion is that others should stop giving their opinions about this though. And no, unlike you I don't want to talk endlessly about a children's book, as proven by the fact that I have less than ten times fewer messages in the thread than you.
 
cafecillos said:
Your opinion is that others should stop giving their opinions about this though. And no, unlike you I don't want to talk endlessly about a children's book, as proven by the fact that I have less than ten times fewer messages in the thread than you.
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Righto, I'll bugger off then I've said my piece. This thread is a minefield anyway I'd rather not get involved with.
 
Imagine being so utterly oblivious to the idea that an author may express their personal views through their fiction. Imagine if you didn't understand what an allegory was and fables were just about the lives of cute fluffies.
 
cafecillos said:
Your opinion is that others should stop giving their opinions about this though. And no, unlike you I don't want to talk endlessly about a children's book, as proven by the fact that I have less than ten times fewer messages in the thread than you.
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the thread is about trans discussion to be fair
 
Tarrou said:
State of Fear is chocked full of anti-science about climate change
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That's an interesting example because chrichton overtly does insert his views into the novel with all the footnotes, so they are there to be critiqued.
 
balaks said:
I however am not an academic who needs to look at these things - I am a grown adult who understands they are kid's books and as such are great when you are a kid but are not really worth thinking about in any great detail now I'm no longer a kid. Maybe it's time to move on?
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Looks like you have moved on, which is cool. Dahl was a great author, and the books are interesting, so people with other interests than you will probably carry on as they like. Incidentally he was also very antisemitic, which is unfortunate.

We're on Redcafe. People talk endlessly about crypto, prince Harry, dating, video games, bald people, bees, attacking the space, false nines, body language and Twitter. Being above someone talking about some of the most influential books ever written strikes me as a bit strange.

nickm said:
Think you missed my point. Determining an author's politics from the novels they write, is a mugs game. Some people are mining Harry potter for the smallest inferences to beat her up over. It's silly. It's as silly as inferring anything about Brett Easton Ellis political views from American paycho.
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Alright. Wonder what Heinlein thought about fascism, unless he told us directly only mugs would dare to speculate. Dickens? Who knows, they're just stories.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Alright. Wonder what Heinlein thought about fascism, unless he told us directly only mugs would dare to speculate. Dickens? Who knows, they're just stories.
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You see that's silly because again, Heinlein often world builds all sorts of political systems to suit the theme of his novel and explore what arises. Starship Troopers is a military fantasy with fascist elements. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a Randian libertarian fantasy, the opposite end of the pole. Is Heinlein therefore a fascist or a libertarian? There is plenty you can critique with how he draws his characters and how they react sometimes (see Friday or god forbid, The Number of the Beast), but you can't determine he was a fascist from Starship Troopers.
 
nickm said:
You see that's silly because again, Heinlein often world builds all sorts of political systems to suit the theme of his novel and explore what arises. Starship Troopers is a military fantasy with fascist elements. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a Randian libertarian fantasy, the opposite end of the pole. Is Heinlein therefore a fascist or a libertarian? There is plenty you can critique with how he draws his characters and how they react sometimes (see Friday), but you can't determine he was a fascist from Starship Troopers.
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Starship Troopers is a satirical work, it's criticism of fascism!
 
nickm said:
The film is, the book isnt (satirical). Have you read it?
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You know what, you're right, of course. I don't know why I mixed up the book and the film, pretty silly.

The militarism in the book is pretty compatible with e.g. Hoppean libertarianism, as is restricting voting rights to certain groups.
 
dumbo said:
Imagine being so utterly oblivious to the idea that an author may express their personal views through their fiction. Imagine if you didn't understand what an allegory was and fables were just about the lives of cute fluffies.
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Imagine being oblivious to the difference between novels that authors write as a vehicle for their opinions, and novels that aren't. Imagine judging all authors against the moral standards of their characters rather than on their own merits as storytellers or the intent of the novel itself.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We all know why the text of Harry Potter books are being scoured for ammunition that can be used to criticise the author’s politics in a way that doesn’t happen with, say, the Twilight or Percy Jackson novels. I mean, that’s obvious, right?
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You make it sound like Rowling was just walking in the park, minding her own business, and was mindlessly attacked. She chose to enter the political arena when she shared her awful views on trans people.
 
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