Not done enough reading about gender and sexuality in indigenous American culture to add anything useful but yeah, it's a global problem. The ghosts of imperialism are definitely rising at the moment and you can see it has left a lot of people shook.
Transgender rights discussion
- Thread starter crappycraperson
- Start date
It’s better that way
For sure. I'm 30-odd now and a lot of my mates are married with kids and I'm constantly having to explain this stuff to them for the benefit of their children. While these folks trip over their dicks arguing about menstruation, more and more folks are coming out as non-binary or trans and they're not going to be silenced any time soon.
That's why I find all the cranks on here moaning about this being nowt but a twitter trend so funny. It's representative of a culture war that they have lost already, they simply don't know it yet because they still have a very narrow view of the world based on their own limited experiences.
These are the same folks who moaned about Gen Z and Millennials being meek little snowflakes for 10 years but are now shocked at the footage of these supposed softies hurling tear gas back at some of the most militarised police departments on the planet. These aren't just a bunch of lazy kids with nothing better to do, they are informed and organised.
This really does not help me empathise with the issues at hand, all comments like this do is turn me off completely to even try and engage in any debate. You don't see it but I can assure you that when I read stuff like this post I let out a massive sigh and roll my eyes. I'm sure all your mates are just delighted at you constantly explaining stuff to them.
That’s all part of the same issue. The term cis only makes sense if gender is a thing. They reject gender as a concept.
I think you’re right about it being a generational thing. There was a time when the most progressive way of thinking was to reject gender roles completely. Fighting back against the way that society dictates boys get footballs and girls get dolls; men are assertive but women are bossy; studs vs sluts etc etc. If you strongly believe that gender roles are artificial constructs that have been created to suppress women, then trans ideology is problematic.
And I guess feminists who have spent their life fighting that particular battle will find it very difficult to let it go. They seem to be finding themselves on the wrong side of history though.
My personal opinion is that all this bickering reflects badly on everyone involved. It’s one of the reasons why so many people are rejecting a lot of the more recent progressive ideologies. This constant fragmentation and squabbling for the moral high ground is tiresome to watch and loses sight of the fact that they’re all supposed to be on the same team.
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I'm not really caring who wins and loses in any debate, just interested in seeing if you are willing to accept that some people are trying to exploit the trans rights debate for their own ends.
If you can't or won't see that I have drawn a clear distinction between genuine trans issues and those of some activists who have a predatory attitude towards female spaces then you are either being wilfully disruptive for effect or you believe that the rights of these people are more important than those of other women and genuine trans people.
Trans rights will be massively damaged if people don't address these outliers and get them out of the movement.
I tried to engage in debate with you but you made personal attacks on me. The negative language I used was aimed at a specific minority of trans activists but you have conflated that to be aimed at all trans people.
In all my time on here I have enjoyed healthy debate with people from differing views and only ever felt the need to ignore one person.
Your attacks on me are either a genuine misunderstanding, or a wilfull attempt to create fake shock and outrage. The other alternative is that you do really believe that the rights of that minority of the trans movement ARE more important than others rights.
Your choices are your own to make.
From my limited understanding of it, it appears to me that the way the arguments have developed is making many women feel uncomfortable because in some ways they feel that being a 'woman' is being diluted or changed in some way by forces outside of their control which as you say is a huge issue due to the decades of fighting so hard for equal rights and fighting against the incumbent gender bias in society. This is made even more problematic by the people shouting loudest to push the agenda through appear to be men, at least biologically men. Hence doubling down on the feeling that they are again being oppressed but in a different way however instead of them fighting for equality they are now feeling like they are fighting for their actual gender.
I'm a bloke trying to understand all this but personally if women are getting very angry about this I would tend to listen to them.
Top post, echoes many of my own thoughts.
Wild generalisation of a whole group. There are a lot of extremists TERFs who indulge in this kind of behaviour but not all of them.
Similarly there are a lot of radical or extremist trans activists as well who get offended by any language they perceived to be anti-trans - the whole drama around ContraPoints was a result of the same.
It hasn’t though. I’m sure there are some cranks/perverts willing to use the fight for trans rights for their own seedy needs. It’s crazy to think they’ve “taken over” the movement. The only way to come to that conclusion would be by trying to follow this culture war exclusively via Graham Linehan’s twitter feed. Common sense dictates that the vast majority of people involved in this movement are well intentioned. Which I’m sure also applies to the “TERFs”
So here's the thing since 2004, trans people in the UK have been recognised as members of the gender they perceived themselves to be, and with a gender recognition cert, can change birth certs etc. Have these people that you are suggesting will exploit the trans rights debate exploited it to date? I know of no cases that have presented this. It's just not happened in the way you have suggested it. If it had I'd happily agree with you, but it hasn't.
Truth be told, there's no way of keeping trans women out of female toilets, I've been told I have "passing privilege" a phrase I detest. What are they going to do? Require x-rays/blood tests on entry?
The only people who need to know of my transness are medical practitioners, I'm open about it to spread understanding and to fight for the rights of those just starting on their journeys or don't pass as easily (and remember a lot of Women can easily be misgendered on the account of being too masculine) but I have no need to be. The rad fems need to start having conversations with those less radical trans people if they're ever going to be heard. Shouting at us that we're just men in dresses and that shagging us must be like shagging a dead hole (which I have been told before) is not going to endear themselves to us.
Likewise, the TRA's don't speak for us either. There are discussions needing to be had but ultimately I'm just as sick and tired of it all as everyone else. I don't need the hassle, as I said, unless I'm going to be medically examined then it doesn't affect me.
And believe me, if you think the queues for the toilets at football matches are bad enough it ain't nothing like the queues at theatres, the last thing they need are medical tests adding to the wait. What they want is just not practical or enforceable.
The only people who need to know of my transness are medical practitioners, I'm open about it to spread understanding and to fight for the rights of those just starting on their journeys or don't pass as easily (and remember a lot of Women can easily be misgendered on the account of being too masculine) but I have no need to be. The rad fems need to start having conversations with those less radical trans people if they're ever going to be heard. Shouting at us that we're just men in dresses and that shagging us must be like shagging a dead hole (which I have been told before) is not going to endear themselves to us.
Likewise, the TRA's don't speak for us either. There are discussions needing to be had but ultimately I'm just as sick and tired of it all as everyone else. I don't need the hassle, as I said, unless I'm going to be medically examined then it doesn't affect me.
And believe me, if you think the queues for the toilets at football matches are bad enough it ain't nothing like the queues at theatres, the last thing they need are medical tests adding to the wait. What they want is just not practical or enforceable.
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"Accountability feels like an attack when you’re not ready to acknowledge how your behavior harms others.”
That sounds like a you problem mate, but you're right, they were annoyed by it about 6 or 7 years ago when they first became fathers and mothers but now they thank me, especially with everything that's going on right now. They feel way more comfortable having uncomfortable conversations and it has enriched their lives apparently which is cool to hear.
It's called personal growth, you should try it some time. Or not bro, it's your choice. Just live your truth innit.
Trans men exist, you seemingly have fallen into the trap of thinking that trans rights is about trans women, which is exactly the type of things that terfs are doing.
I have no problem at all thanks - I'm not the one trying to change people's opinions on things, that's you - so if the method you choose to try and further your own views is actively turning people off then actually it is you that has the problem. You can take on board what I've said or just ignore it, doesn't bother me either way. As for suggesting I should try personal growth well I'm well engaged in that thanks and would be happy to engage in a debate about these issues however not with the likes of you if you express your opinions in the way you have in the last few posts.
You misread my post mate. I was talking changing the opinions of my friends and loved ones for the benefit of their children and I'm afraid that doesn't include you. Sorry if I confused you by calling you mate. I honestly would never associate with someone with views like yours outside of a platform like this anyway because it's not my job to teach ignorant folks how to be less ignorant, at least on a one on one basis.
If you read what I said again, this culture war is already lost and trans/non-binary/atypical people will inevitably be declared the victors. The question is how long the likes of Rowling and her band of TERFs will kick and scream about it and how many vulnerable people will suffer longer than they really needed to because of it.
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I don't involve myself in these discusssions. I know feck all.
I kind of feel the same.
Are TERFs feminists that perceive male to female trans people as men getting all up in women's business again, like some sort of threat to femininity ?
Then why are you even posting on this thread then? Your tone and choice of words are not helping your cause one bit.
Absolutely they do. And if they want access to male spaces that is fine. The issue I was raising was about predatory men, masquerading as Trans activists, in order to gain access to female only spaces.
I've no issue with genuine trans people accessing the spaces they feel are appropriate. The acceptance of "self identifying" rather than a GRC is however a slippery slope that will be exploited by predatory males with an agenda.
Sorry but I won't be addressing this discussion with someone who is fresh off using the language that you did, and certainly not in a thread that was not focused on sexual predation and criminality before you homed in on it.
And I never tried to engage in debate with you because the row you want to have is predicated on negative stereotypes, hateful slurs and misrepresentation. If I called you ugly then I am sorry I was wrong, if I called your posts ugly then I stand by it.
I have no problem with you or anyone else ignoring me. And I see you have an ally in hobbers already so you won't be short of company. Just so you know, I won't be putting you on ignore and I will still be taking your posts to task if I see you continuing to post hateful language, whether you can see my reply or not. This is not fake shock and outrage, this is genuine disgust at the vile language you used, the way you chose to frame your opinion and the way you drew on cases involving criminals and sexual predators to represent sections of the trans movement.
I was literally having a conversation with another user about the historic, imperalist erasure of trans people before you started tone policing. What brings you here?
A discussion about J.K. Rowling's recent tweets? I was hoping to learn a bit more about what it was all about and see what people were saying about it as I openly confess to being a bit ignorant about the whole thing. Sadly though the way the entire discussion has gone has put me off completely. I think it is healthy to chat with folk that you may disagree with on certain things and I enjoy it normally but nothing in this thread is remotely enjoyable or welcoming.
They've had self id in Ireland for some time now, I don't believe that anyone has exploited the laws as you are suggesting of either gender.
Again that's a you problem. Honestly I found a lot of helpful descriptions and summaries of the situation from people who had enough sense to put the pieces together themselves which was really heartening to see. Things went a little south after you showed up but that makes sense reading your responses so far. Not to worry, you can't win them all.
The reason you're getting a bit of flak is that the argument you're making is commonly used by bigots as a pretext to accuse random trans people and their advocates of being rapists and/or paedophiles or apologists for rape and paedophilia. I don't know how 'online' you are, so I understand that you may not realise that you're parroting TERF talking points, but claiming concern about self-ID being a danger to women despite a lack of evidence to demonstrate such is a pretty common dogwhistle for transphobia - it's the main argument they use to justify denying trans women access to appropriate facilities.
I bet he’s weeping the loss.
Completely agree with this. At one point there was push for unisex bathrooms, wonder if that will be a solution. At some companies like Amazon. they have 'everyone' bathroom along with men and women ones, though I think that is aimed at non binary folks.
Pedantic point, but doesn't ‘People who menstruate’ make perfect sense?
I assume Rowling can read. The article is about humans that menstruate. It’s not about the post-menapausal. it’s not about the pre-pubescent. Therefore, it’s not an article about women as a collective. It’s just an article about bodily fluids.
I assume Rowling can read. The article is about humans that menstruate. It’s not about the post-menapausal. it’s not about the pre-pubescent. Therefore, it’s not an article about women as a collective. It’s just an article about bodily fluids.
Always nice to see some solidarity between the sealions of RedCafe!
Buchansleftleg has mentioned toilets several times now in this thread, rad fems certainly want sex segregated toilets. How has it been birthed?
https://womansplaceuk.org/gender-neutral-toilets-dont-work-for-women-2/
Indeed, Liz Truss herself has even raised the possibility of restricting trans people using their preferred toilet.
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article...s-bathroom-use-will-drive-people-underground/
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Nice line dad!
Have you got large scale examples of this?
By large scale, I mean actual documented cases of it happening, at a higher rate than regular Pervy guys doing pervy shit.
Because I’ve never heard of it. Ever. I hear oddbods like you bring it up.
You’re absolutely fcuking nuts if you think there are large numbers of predatory males being held back by signs on doors and fixed terminology right now.
Just stop and think about what you’re saying.
I deleted my post when I realised I was about to start discussing toilets. I don’t want to. I don’t need to. Because I don’t have the time, energy, or upside.
I’ll take a look at your link but I’ll leave others to talk about poos and wees.
The thing about the bathroom debate in particular is that I don't think there has ever been a rule against transwomen using women's bathrooms in the UK? It has always been allowed as far as I'm aware.
Which is interesting in the sense that it is often framed as if transwomen have suddenly started trying to "invade" women's bathrooms. When in reality what's changed is people who are opposed to trans rights trying to bring in rules to block transwomen from doing what they've already been doing for decades. Presumably because it's only in recent years that they've been unable to continue ignoring transpeople.
Though that in itself suggest their fear of sexual predators in this situation is horrendously overblown, seeing as it only registered as an issue for a lot of people once transpeople became more outspoken and visible.
Which is interesting in the sense that it is often framed as if transwomen have suddenly started trying to "invade" women's bathrooms. When in reality what's changed is people who are opposed to trans rights trying to bring in rules to block transwomen from doing what they've already been doing for decades. Presumably because it's only in recent years that they've been unable to continue ignoring transpeople.
Though that in itself suggest their fear of sexual predators in this situation is horrendously overblown, seeing as it only registered as an issue for a lot of people once transpeople became more outspoken and visible.
Yeah, I don't get why such a bland, catch-all description has become so contentious for her. Some people menstruate. What's the fecking problem?
It might well be the same kind of media-led propaganda that told us for years that 'children are not safe in the company of homosexuals!'...when, all the while, the people who preyed on kids were often the upper classes and the titled; funny, that.
Precisely, no longer being able to stick a dress on and enter toilets under a pretense won't stop sexual predators, how many really did it in the first place?
I still don't get how it could ever be enforced:
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article...s-bathroom-use-will-drive-people-underground/
It would lead to masculine Women being accused of being trans, medical screening would be needed to stop people like myself and
would the police really want to get involved in stopped trans women using the toilet?
How is a kid named Anthony Goldstein not Jewish?
There’s a lot to pick flaws with JKR for but post adding a Jewish kid to the books isn’t one of them. He was in the series from book 5.
The 'logic' of some members' argument is surely flawed beyond debate: if a male thief wears a mask, does it follow that all men are potential thieves? And that all men should be separated from the rest of us? No.