Transgender Athletes

These two quotes just seem so wildly off, I truly just don't understand the perspective or argument being put forward. It all feels so off-kilter. I also don't understand how there is a ban in place for this person, when they are (I presume) free to race in open categories etc?

As I understand them, the arguments are that:
  • Splitting sports into "Female" and "Open" categories will severely limit the opportunity for transwomen to compete in elite sports
  • Splitting sports into "Female", "Male" and "Open/Trans" categories is a form of othering
Ultimately, it's a no-win situation for the sporting bodies, as things stand. Bridges is free to compete in the open category (as I believe the UCI now refer to it as), but I imagine would be not be as competitive, hence the talk of being "banned".

I'm not sure there is an answer to please everybody while maintaining fairness.
 
As I understand them, the arguments are that:
  • Splitting sports into "Female" and "Open" categories will severely limit the opportunity for transwomen to compete in elite sports
  • Splitting sports into "Female", "Male" and "Open/Trans" categories is a form of othering
Ultimately, it's a no-win situation for the sporting bodies, as things stand. Bridges is free to compete in the open category (as I believe the UCI now refer to it as), but I imagine would be not be as competitive, hence the talk of being "banned".

I'm not sure there is an answer to please everybody while maintaining fairness.
Good post.

Also saw the only sportswoman on Vogue's "top 25 powerhouse women" was Bridges.
 
These two quotes just seem so wildly off, I truly just don't understand the perspective or argument being put forward. It all feels so off-kilter. I also don't understand how there is a ban in place for this person, when they are (I presume) free to race in open categories etc?

The first quote reads like it wants to be fact (the bit about "unsubstantiated claims"), but in reality it's more an opinion. The second is just nonsense to me. Sports being inherently unfair is not a good argument to potentially make it even more unfair.
 
The first quote reads like it wants to be fact (the bit about "unsubstantiated claims"), but in reality it's more an opinion. The second is just nonsense to me. Sports being inherently unfair is not a good argument to potentially make it even more unfair.

It's a ridiculous statement designed to try and ignore the physiological differences between biological men and women.

Claiming all athletes have differences in endurance and physical ability and then using it to suggest biological men should be competing in women's categories is ridiculous.
 
It's a ridiculous statement designed to try and ignore the physiological differences between biological men and women.

Claiming all athletes have differences in endurance and physical ability and then using it to suggest biological men should be competing in women's categories is ridiculous.

I know there isn't an easy answer, but you have to admit there's a double standard at play. We're happy to accept that sport is unfair in 99.9% of cases. A short, stocky guy could train every day for a lifetime, develop world-class technique and still be slower in the pool than his lean, 6' 3" neighbour who does a few lengths on the weekend. We wouldn't bat an eyelid.

There are examples all across top level sport of male athletes who have ludicrous biological advantages over the average man and, collectively, we don't care. Michael Phelps, in addition to his height and build, has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce half the lactic acid a normal man's do. Should we not be asking him to take some medication to make his muscles less efficient, or ask him to compete in a different category so he's not taking medals from everyone else? If not, why not? Does unfair advantage only impact performance if chromosomes and gonads are involved?
 
I know there isn't an easy answer, but you have to admit there's a double standard at play. We're happy to accept that sport is unfair in 99.9% of cases. A short, stocky guy could train every day for a lifetime, develop world-class technique and still be slower in the pool than his lean, 6' 3" neighbour who does a few lengths on the weekend. We wouldn't bat an eyelid.

There are examples all across top level sport of male athletes who have ludicrous biological advantages over the average man and, collectively, we don't care. Michael Phelps, in addition to his height and build, has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce half the lactic acid a normal man's do. Should we not be asking him to take some medication to make his muscles less efficient, or ask him to compete in a different category so he's not taking medals from everyone else? If not, why not? Does unfair advantage only impact performance if chromosomes and gonads are involved?

The lesser-spotted Michael Phelps trope out.

Should we not be asking him to take some medication to make his muscles less efficient, or ask him to compete in a different category

What category would this be, seaworld olympics?!

Look, a sport is the ultimate meritocracy and the point is the win the game/race/event by the defined parameters. So if we take swimming, lean muscle mass and endurance will prosper over outright strength and power. Naturally, certain body types will be better at those individual sports, the sports themselves act as a controlling factor if that makes sense. The fact that a lot of sports do control for size advantages also makes the point mute.

Does unfair advantage only impact performance if chromosomes and gonads are involved?

Again, this doesn't make sense because, if we take Phelps, he still was in the usual parameters for a human being. He wasn't a dolphin. He wasn't six feet tall with nine feet of arms and a mermaid's tail. He had certain physiological traits that other people have, or a combination of which, enabled him to have some advantages in the pool. If he had things that were such an outlier that directly benefited his ability in the pool say literal flippers, he would have been banned from competition. Other humans could compete with him and get close. Sometimes they couldn't. Same with Usain Bolt. Same with Adam Peatty. They all fall within the normal parameters for human males.

The issue we have unfortunately is male puberty. Testosterone is, to most competitive sports, a cheat code. Like rocket fuel. There is a reason it's the go-to PED in most sports and the ones women take to cheat. The biological issue we have is that through puberty, males are mainlined this wonder drug and it has lasting and permanent effects (usually) on a male's physiology, ligaments, muscles, bones, heart size, VOmax, blood oxygen etc.

The debate is whether these can be reversed or mitigated to enable trans women (those born male and wish to transition to live as female - good luck to them) to lower certain genetic advantages men have over women in certain sports.

Do we need to control for these differences in pistol shooting, darts, snooker, golf, horse riding, dressage, high board diving, curling, bowls, bowling, and chess? In my opinion, no because the parameters of those sports or pastimes are not rooted in physical advantages.
 
I know there isn't an easy answer, but you have to admit there's a double standard at play. We're happy to accept that sport is unfair in 99.9% of cases. A short, stocky guy could train every day for a lifetime, develop world-class technique and still be slower in the pool than his lean, 6' 3" neighbour who does a few lengths on the weekend. We wouldn't bat an eyelid.

There are examples all across top level sport of male athletes who have ludicrous biological advantages over the average man and, collectively, we don't care. Michael Phelps, in addition to his height and build, has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce half the lactic acid a normal man's do. Should we not be asking him to take some medication to make his muscles less efficient, or ask him to compete in a different category so he's not taking medals from everyone else? If not, why not? Does unfair advantage only impact performance if chromosomes and gonads are involved?

I don't think there is a double standard at play, the genetically driven advantages within the male only group are really small compared to the advantages vs women. The short stocky guy would very likely beat the best female swimmer easily for example.
 
I know there isn't an easy answer, but you have to admit there's a double standard at play. We're happy to accept that sport is unfair in 99.9% of cases. A short, stocky guy could train every day for a lifetime, develop world-class technique and still be slower in the pool than his lean, 6' 3" neighbour who does a few lengths on the weekend. We wouldn't bat an eyelid.

There are examples all across top level sport of male athletes who have ludicrous biological advantages over the average man and, collectively, we don't care. Michael Phelps, in addition to his height and build, has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce half the lactic acid a normal man's do. Should we not be asking him to take some medication to make his muscles less efficient, or ask him to compete in a different category so he's not taking medals from everyone else? If not, why not? Does unfair advantage only impact performance if chromosomes and gonads are involved?

Michael Phelps is a man.
 
I know there isn't an easy answer, but you have to admit there's a double standard at play. We're happy to accept that sport is unfair in 99.9% of cases. A short, stocky guy could train every day for a lifetime, develop world-class technique and still be slower in the pool than his lean, 6' 3" neighbour who does a few lengths on the weekend. We wouldn't bat an eyelid.

There are examples all across top level sport of male athletes who have ludicrous biological advantages over the average man and, collectively, we don't care. Michael Phelps, in addition to his height and build, has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce half the lactic acid a normal man's do. Should we not be asking him to take some medication to make his muscles less efficient, or ask him to compete in a different category so he's not taking medals from everyone else? If not, why not? Does unfair advantage only impact performance if chromosomes and gonads are involved?

  1. This isn't a double standard at all.
  2. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and in many instances, that line is sufficiently drawn between biological males and biological females. There are sports where things like weight categories have been introduced (typically combat sports and weightlifting), and in para- events we see other sub-categories so we don't, for example, just lump all "leg disabled" people in together.
  3. The average man isn't an elite athlete. The logical conclusion to your line of argument is that we create infinite sub-categories so that every possible advantage is taken into consideration, which is obviously insane. Of course some people have natural advantages over others. That's why they're elite athletes and the average man isn't.
 
  1. This isn't a double standard at all.
  2. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and in many instances, that line is sufficiently drawn between biological males and biological females. There are sports where things like weight categories have been introduced (typically combat sports and weightlifting), and in para- events we see other sub-categories so we don't, for example, just lump all "leg disabled" people in together.
  3. The average man isn't an elite athlete. The logical conclusion to your line of argument is that we create infinite sub-categories so that every possible advantage is taken into consideration, which is obviously insane. Of course some people have natural advantages over others. That's why they're elite athletes and the average man isn't.
I mean point 3 works for me, I'd love to have the chance to go to the Olympics under the "overweight, average height, sciatica sufferer" category, I might have a shot at a medal.
 
Seems like a good solution.

It might be good in terms of maintaining the fairness of the women's category, but it's obviously not a good solution for the trans athletes, as they are still being put in an "other" category, which is the exact opposite of what they want. They want to be recognized fully as the gender they feel represents them, so it would be equally bad for a transwoman to be put in an open category as not being allowed to compete - both will be a reminder that they are not a woman in the eyes of the sporting world.
 
As I understand them, the arguments are that:
  • Splitting sports into "Female" and "Open" categories will severely limit the opportunity for transwomen to compete in elite sports
  • Splitting sports into "Female", "Male" and "Open/Trans" categories is a form of othering
Ultimately, it's a no-win situation for the sporting bodies, as things stand. Bridges is free to compete in the open category (as I believe the UCI now refer to it as), but I imagine would be not be as competitive, hence the talk of being "banned".

I'm not sure there is an answer to please everybody while maintaining fairness.
Female and all others?
 
It might be good in terms of maintaining the fairness of the women's category, but it's obviously not a good solution for the trans athletes, as they are still being put in an "other" category, which is the exact opposite of what they want. They want to be recognized fully as the gender they feel represents them, so it would be equally bad for a transwoman to be put in an open category as not being allowed to compete - both will be a reminder that they are not a woman in the eyes of the sporting world.
But inclusivity isn't the end game in competitive sports, its fairness in the competition and the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Obviously outside of competitive sports it's entirely different and we should be looking for inclusivity.
 
What do you mean?

I've already written about the arguments against having just "Female" and "Open/All others" categories.
No separate male category. Could you just have born female and then everyone else? Or is that effectively the same thing.
 
But that's the reality. When viewed in the context of sporting integrity and fairness, it's inevitable. Same as it is in the context of, say, if they go to see a doctor with bladder problems.

There's hard limits on how far you can stretch the 'truth' to protect feelings.
But inclusivity isn't the end game in competitive sports, its fairness in the competition and the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Obviously outside of competitive sports it's entirely different and we should be looking for inclusivity.

I agree with you both. I was just pointing out why the "Open" category solution, will not be seen as a good solution from the point of view of a trans person (most often a woman).
 
No separate male category. Could you just have born female and then everyone else? Or is that effectively the same thing.

That's basically what I stated. I used "female" as a biological marker as we currently tend to refer to them as the men's and women's categories.

So yeah, "biological female" and "open" is met with resistance as an option.
 
At this stage, just have one open category, let everyone enter, let them be whatever the hell they want. Might be best to keep the weight classes for combat sports, just to be on the safe side.

Then let the strongest or fastest or bestest or most drugged up win.
 
That... no... that's now how that works.

Yeah, you're right, you wouldn't want to be offending people by allowing their weight to become public knowledge.

Just have one open category for everybody in every sport and let the cream rise to the top.
 
What, you don't think a 180 pound woman would be equal to a 180 pound man in boxing or MMA? You must be one of them sexists.
Right!?
Yeah, you're right, you wouldn't want to be offending people by allowing their weight to become public knowledge.

Just have one open category for everybody in every sport and let the cream rise to the top.
No, I just don't want a woman to die.
 
Right!?

No, I just don't want a woman to die.

That may or may not happen. But I doubt anyone really cares if someone could get seriously physically injured when the more important thing is to be all inclusive and not hurt feelings.

I see it as the fairest way forward, let everyone compete in one class and let the best come out on top.
 
That may or may not happen. But I doubt anyone really cares if someone could get seriously physically injured when the more important thing is to be all inclusive and not hurt feelings.

I see it as the fairest way forward, let everyone compete in one class and let the best come out on top.

You’d also immediately make 99% of female born pro athletes irrelevant.
 
'Won't somebody stop and think of the feelings?!' they say, despite ignoring the feelings and thoughts of 1000s+ of female athletes.
 
You’d also immediately make 99% of female born pro athletes irrelevant.

Yeah, but at least everyone gets to compete is the same groups and nobody is discriminated against.

In athletic sports if the strongest and fastest will come out on top, and if that happens to be mostly biological men, then that's just the way it is.
 
I know there isn't an easy answer, but you have to admit there's a double standard at play. We're happy to accept that sport is unfair in 99.9% of cases. A short, stocky guy could train every day for a lifetime, develop world-class technique and still be slower in the pool than his lean, 6' 3" neighbour who does a few lengths on the weekend. We wouldn't bat an eyelid.

There are examples all across top level sport of male athletes who have ludicrous biological advantages over the average man and, collectively, we don't care. Michael Phelps, in addition to his height and build, has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce half the lactic acid a normal man's do. Should we not be asking him to take some medication to make his muscles less efficient, or ask him to compete in a different category so he's not taking medals from everyone else? If not, why not? Does unfair advantage only impact performance if chromosomes and gonads are involved?

But in your example with Michael Phelps he's not enhancing himself artificially, he was born that weight and had the opportunity to become a world class swimmer. Even then he still lost to his peers every now and then and the differences between men and women are a lot more tangible, obvious and impactful. It's ont thing to say there are differences, and variance, between individuals but in this case the advantages we're talking about concern a whole sex gender and cannot be denied. You don't have to go take the top athletes to realize this as a man, on average, has an athletic advantage over an average woman.
 
The weight classes aren’t what I’m questioning :lol:

Yeah, all common sense has already gone out the window. So just have 1 category for everyone to enter no defined genders, then just let the best, strongest, fastest, fittest etc. win. Then nobody can complain about being left out or it being unfair, everyone has the same chance to compete in and win. If you're not good enough, then you're not enough, you can have no complaints.
 
Do we need to control for these differences in pistol shooting, darts, snooker, golf, horse riding, dressage, high board diving, curling, bowls, bowling, and chess? In my opinion, no because the parameters of those sports or pastimes are not rooted in physical advantages.

Initially I would think there shouldn't be a differences but in some of those examples there are sex categories, like let's say chess. I might be wrong but it was my understanding than men perform better than women, when they play each other and are similarly ranked.

Another example would be esports, games such as DotA2 and League of Legends I don't think there are sex categories, just one open categorie buyt is vastly occupied by men. Outside of strenght wouldn't things like endurance and reflexes would be an advantage for men? I'm just wondering because it doesn't seem there should be a difference in those activities but men end up performing better in almost everything.
 
Yeah, all common sense has already gone out the window. So just have 1 category for everyone to enter no defined genders, then just let the best, strongest, fastest, fittest etc. win. Then nobody can complain about being left out or it being unfair, everyone has the same chance to compete in and win. If you're not good enough, then you're not enough, you can have no complaints.
Alrighty then
 
But that's the reality. When viewed in the context of sporting integrity and fairness, it's inevitable. Same as it is in the context of, say, if they go to see a doctor with bladder problems.

There's hard limits on how far you can stretch the 'truth' to protect feelings.

Exactly. It's fair enough to say that society could do with, or should accept, stretching that truth a bit in the interest of human happiness/fulfillment. But there are some points where that stretching crosses into absolute absurdity.