Transgender Athletes

If they base it on chromosomal evidence, it's a lot easier. It doesn't matter what you do to yourself after you're born, you still have either XX or XY. Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes and "internal testes" (something I'd never heard of before). Testosterone levels and when someone transitioned become irrelevant.

I personally know many families with transgender kids, and have a couple fully transitioned friends. Most of this is issue is unwarranted hysteria. If we listen to what these kids and their parents are telling us they need, that's usually a good plan. It's a really difficult, scary road they face. I can see why a kid who has been "in the wrong body" their whole life and then transitions might take being excluded from elite competition negatively, but the XX/XY screening is the only thing I've heard yet that sounds fair.
 
Lightbringer said:
No, whats actually insane is how you have spent weeks trying to cement a fact that I am anti-trans when its simply not true in any sense or form whatsoever. Its truly bizarre, there is just nothing I can do about it. There is nothing left to add. My conscience is clear, you should spend your time combating people who are actually anti-trans instead of chasing ghosts!
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:lol:

Quoting people who literally want to genocide trans people and telling us all about how much you agree with them, on top of mindlessly repeating anti trans propaganda with no basis in reality, but you're not anti-trans.

My brother in christ, you are either the most gullible person alive, or you're a humongous transphobe who's really bad at JAQing off.
 
Halftrack said:
:lol:

Quoting people who literally want to genocide trans people and telling us all about how much you agree with them, on top of mindlessly repeating anti trans propaganda with no basis in reality, but you're not anti-trans.

My brother in christ, you are either the most gullible person alive, or you're a humongous transphobe who's really bad at JAQing off.
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Bloody hell, I’ve just looked back through that users posts. They are a transphobe, making a very poor attempt to disguise it, I think.

The moment anyone in a mature discussion on trans rights starts bringing up things like people who identify as wolves, then I think you have your answer right there.
 
berbatrick said:
5 hours is quite a long time for internet people you barely know!
I'm, not accusing you of worshipping them, I'm saying you agree with them on trans issues. And I'm doing that by quoting you:





...

This is a study on what happens to the young victims of those doctors:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/


Yes, sure, suicide rates might have fallen substantially, but in the end it's more important to stop the doctors from creating more freaks!
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There are quite a few issues with that study.
 
In fact this looks a lot more comprehensive, when focusing on young people:

21,598 participants (77.9%) reported ever desiring GAH. Of these, 8,860 (41.0%) never accessed GAH, 119 (0.6%) accessed GAH in early adolescence, 362 (1.7%) accessed GAH in late adolescence, and 12,257 (56.8%) accessed GAH in adulthood. After adjusting for potential confounders, accessing GAH during early adolescence (aOR = 0.4, 95% CI = 0.2–0.6, p < .0001), late adolescence (aOR = 0.5, 95% CI = 0.4–0.7, p < .0001), or adulthood (aOR = 0.8, 95% CI = 0.7–0.8, p < .0001) was associated with lower odds of past-year suicidal ideation when compared to desiring but never accessing GAH. In post hoc analyses, access to GAH during adolescence (ages 14–17) was associated with lower odds of past-year suicidal ideation (aOR = 0.7, 95% CI = 0.6–0.9, p = .0007) when compared to accessing GAH during adulthood.
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https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0261039
 
berbatrick said:
In fact this looks a lot more comprehensive, when focusing on young people:



https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0261039
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Very comprehensive but again, there appeared to be a few observations on the methodology on this study as well.

Unfortunately I'm not a statistical whizz but on that link, it cities some errors and I think it's Michael Biggs who raised some errors as well.

Reanalysis of the data used by Turban et al. corrects their claims about the association between cross-sex hormones and mental health. Most importantly, the association differed according to sex. Controlling for other variables, females who took testosterone reported better outcomes than females who had not taken it, including those who did not even want it. Perhaps this is unsurprising given that several randomized control trials find testosterone acting as an anti-depressant [13]. In stark contrast, however, males taking estrogen reported greater suicidality than males not taking estrogen.
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Edit: found above the conclusion, might have been subsequently answered by the authors but the stats seem to show worse outcomes for one group than another.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Very comprehensive but again, there appeared to be a few observations on the methodology on this study as well.

Unfortunately I'm not a statistical whizz but on that link, it cities some errors and I think it's Michael Biggs who raised some errors as well.



Edit: found above the conclusion, might have been subsequently answered by the authors but the stats seem to show worse outcomes for one group than another.
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There are multiple studies with the same outcomes. For the one I posted first, you replied with "there are concerns". For the meta-analysis, you said nothing. For this one, you quoted an anti-trans researcher replying to it with homebrew analysis.

I had looked for studies which do NOT show the same outcome. There was one from a Nordic country where they compared trans people on therapy with cis people (not to trans people without therapy). There was one from the US where, in the abstract itself, the authors started talking about SJWs.


Based on what I've read, I think it's clear where the weight of the evidence is.
 
berbatrick said:
There are multiple studies with the same outcomes. For the one I posted first, you replied with "there are concerns". For the meta-analysis, you said nothing. For this one, you quoted an anti-trans researcher replying to it with homebrew analysis.

I had looked for studies which do NOT show the same outcome. There was one from a Nordic country where they compared trans people on therapy with cis people (not to trans people without therapy). There was one from the US where, in the abstract itself, the authors started talking about SJWs.


Based on what I've read, I think it's clear where the weight of the evidence is.
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Good for you, I disagree and spend time reading about this and that a lot of the studies seem to be flawed or don't show the reduction in suicidality, at the rates claimed.

Raising this point seems to bring a response that people are anti-trans etc.

Which is fine I suppose.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Good for you, I disagree and spend time reading about this and that a lot of the studies seem to be flawed or don't show the reduction in suicidality, at the rates claimed.

Raising this point seems to bring a response that people are anti-trans etc.

Which is fine I suppose.
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Are you claiming that Michael "Henry Wimbush" Biggs isn't anti-trans?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Then how could you possibly have an opinion on what gets him labelled as anti-trans?

https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2018/10/26/transphobic-tweets-linked-to-oxford-sociology-professor/
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Well because when you've been reading and observing this issue for as long as I have, pretty much everyone has been "problematic".

For what it's worth I've googled him and that article came up, as did Transgender Map article on him, which seemed to just quote the previous article and then his wider life/work from what seemed like Wikipedia.

I then read his Oxford uni sociology page about his course and his interests, seems he is still employed by Oxford? Wouldn't have thought they'd still employ a rampant transphobe?

I then searched for him on twitter and an interview with Wesley Yang came up.



I then looked at the Henry Wimbush twitter, which hasn't been updated in five years and has 1700 followers but was retweeting stuff like this from Anonymous;



Seemed fairly unkind and insensitive but much of a muchness so far as Gender Critical twitter accounts go, there are plenty worse and given how toxic the debate is and how the algorithm is set up, the loudest, most brash accounts get the most traction.

But calling him a transphobe, even if he is one, doesn't discount points he might raise on certain studies, if his critiques are genuine.

Perhaps you could say he is always going to disagree with these studies on some "moral" point or because he is truly a bigot. But the risk is always seeing disagreements as bigotry, which I'm not saying you are, but it's a risk.
 




Saw these tweets today and thought of the thread, seems the differences are quite vast.

The question I suppose is whether controlling for hormones will lessen this gap to a point which would be "fair" in physical competition.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I then read his Oxford uni sociology page about his course and his interests, seems he is still employed by Oxford? Wouldn't have thought they'd still employ a rampant transphobe?
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If he has tenure, he could be an open eugenicist and white nationalist, and still be employed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn

Lynn only lost his position after 40 years, after he already retired into emeritus status.
...

I don't call him "rampantly transphobic", I didn't say he was "problematic", I said he was anti-trans. From the article you linked, which quotes his tweets, I'd say that's true.

e - read more into that article. Nah, "rampantly transphobic" would have been right.
 
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berbatrick said:
If he has tenure, he could be an open eugenicist and white nationalist, and still be employed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn

Lynn only lost his position after 40 years, after he already retired into emeritus status.
...

I don't call him "rampantly transphobic", I didn't say he was "problematic", I said he was anti-trans. From the article you linked, which quotes his tweets, I'd say that's true.

e - read more into that article. Nah, "rampantly transphobic" would have been right.
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Fair point. Although it's quite rare for someone to be like Richard Lynn and maintain their role in academia today?

As an aside, his Wikipedia is quite the page.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Funny, flip it around and it also applies. Sometimes bigotry isn't just disagreement.

#transthegayaway, right?
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Well, trans the gay away is a hashtag, I believe derived from the L and G part of the LGBT community, who see some of the unintended affects of childhood transition or parents worrying their child is trans because the children might display gender non conforming behaviour (gender confirming behaviour being a social construct of course).
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Well, trans the gay away is a hashtag, I believe derived from the L and G part of the LGBT community, who see some of the unintended affects of childhood transition or parents worrying their child is trans because the children might display gender non conforming behaviour (gender confirming behaviour being a social construct of course).
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Come on, now. Even you must have a limit for what you'll attempt to explain away. The guy is anti-trans, and would happily agree with that himself except maybe at work.

It doesn't come from the "L and G part", it comes from the gender critical community.
 
NotThatSoph said:


Come on, now. Even you must have a limit for what you'll attempt to explain away. The guy is anti-trans, and would happily agree with that himself except maybe at work.

It doesn't come from the "L and G part", it comes from the gender critical community.
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Of which, there are lesbian and gay people?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Yes, there are lesbian and gay and straight people in the gender critical community.
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I don't understand why you dismissed my comment of the L and G part and said it comes from the gender critical community?

Doubt you meant it but seemed to be intimating that those people can't be part of the LGBT community and Gender Critical.

But we are getting into the weeds and conscious the thread is about athletes, hence why I posted a study on musculature and strength differences.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I don't understand why you dismissed my comment of the L and G part and said it comes from the gender critical community?

Doubt you meant it but seemed to be intimating that those people can't be part of the LGBT community and Gender Critical.

But we are getting into the weeds and conscious the thread is about athletes, hence why I posted a study on musculature and strength differences.
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Because it's not coming from the L and G parts of the LGBT+ community. It's coming from the gender critical community, some of who are also members of the L and G parts of the LGBT+ community.

It would be a bit like saying that it comes from the author community, because some gender critical people are authors. Or the Redcafe community, because we had that one member who kept going on about Genspect a while back.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Because it's not coming from the L and G parts of the LGBT+ community. It's coming from the gender critical community, some of who are also members of the L and G parts of the LGBT+ community.

It would be a bit like saying that it comes from the author community, because some gender critical people are authors. Or the Redcafe community, because we had that one member who kept going on about Genspect a while back.
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The first sentence is tautological but I appreciate your response.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
The first sentence is tautological but I appreciate your response.
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The first sentence is just repeating the answer, because it is the answer. I dismissed your answer about the L and G part of the LGBT+ community, and instead said that it comes from the gender critical community, because what you said was wrong and what I said was right.
 
NotThatSoph said:
The first sentence is just repeating the answer, because it is the answer. I dismissed your answer about the L and G part of the LGBT+ community, and instead said that it comes from the gender critical community, because what you said was wrong and what I said was right.
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Cool.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:




Saw these tweets today and thought of the thread, seems the differences are quite vast.

The question I suppose is whether controlling for hormones will lessen this gap to a point which would be "fair" in physical competition.
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But but testosterone and something and testing.
 


Trans women, with their fast-twtich muscles, had an unfair advantage in hitting the clock fast, had to be remedied.
 
I Was Banned From Competitive Cycling Because I’m Trans. That Won’t Stop Me Fighting For My Rights

I was 10 when I started cycling competitively. I did a few sessions in a velodrome, and I was instantly hooked. Soon after, I began working my way up through the British cycling ranks, setting a national record in 2018 before joining the GB cycling team for a year in 2020. I left the team that year to transition, and in 2022, I was in talks to rejoin the GB cycling team with an eye on the 2024 Olympic campaign. However, in May 2023, news came that British Cycling, the national governing body for the sport, was placing a ban on transgender women competing in the women’s category. I has foreseen it happening, but the confirmation was still devastating. Cycling competitively was my life for the past 12 years. But now, I’m divesting from the sport – I have to.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I Was Banned From Competitive Cycling Because I’m Trans. That Won’t Stop Me Fighting For My Rights

I was 10 when I started cycling competitively. I did a few sessions in a velodrome, and I was instantly hooked. Soon after, I began working my way up through the British cycling ranks, setting a national record in 2018 before joining the GB cycling team for a year in 2020. I left the team that year to transition, and in 2022, I was in talks to rejoin the GB cycling team with an eye on the 2024 Olympic campaign. However, in May 2023, news came that British Cycling, the national governing body for the sport, was placing a ban on transgender women competing in the women’s category. I has foreseen it happening, but the confirmation was still devastating. Cycling competitively was my life for the past 12 years. But now, I’m divesting from the sport – I have to.
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Setting the actual decision aside, the rhetoric she has used in other statements, interviews, etc. are simply not helpful to her cause. A quick search reveals she has accused British Cycling of "furthering a genocide" and "committing a violent act" by banning transgender cyclists from competing at the highest level. I'm not sure how she imagines she will get more people to her side that way. These unions face an impossible task in setting rules for this, because whatever they do they will make a group of people unhappy.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Setting the actual decision aside, the rhetoric she has used in other statements, interviews, etc. are simply not helpful to her cause. A quick search reveals she has accused British Cycling of "furthering a genocide" and "committing a violent act" by banning transgender cyclists from competing at the highest level. I'm not sure how she imagines she will get more people to her side that way. These unions face an impossible task in setting rules for this, because whatever they do they will make a group of people unhappy.
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The interview piece was really odd, the language and such seems so, I dunno, contradictory.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
The interview piece was really odd, the language and such seems so, I dunno, contradictory.
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The Canadian report cited is also a bit strange:

  • Biomedical studies are overvalued in sports policies in comparison to social sciences studies.
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I'm not sure why a sports body primarily concerned with fairness in sports (my understanding is they're essentially the ones in charge of drug testing) is concluding that social sciences should be dictating sporting policy.
 
hobbers said:
Because one field gives nice inclusive answers that they like, and the other doesn’t.
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I'm fairly sure no actual study went on in that report and it's essentially a literature review. The "key findings" on the biomedical front are also weird. Two points on how the data is limited, and what data there is has often been gathered using flawed methodology, then the final point is that the data available shows no advantage.
 
Alex99 said:
The Canadian report cited is also a bit strange:



I'm not sure why a sports body primarily concerned with fairness in sports (my understanding is they're essentially the ones in charge of drug testing) is concluding that social sciences should be dictating sporting policy.
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Trans inclusion in sports has long been a highly contentious issue due to unsubstantiated concerns about transgender women having a physical advantage over cisgender women
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Sport is inherently unfair. That’s why there are winners and losers. Competitors are put into categories so everyone has a reasonable shot at winning, but the reality is that the playing field is never completely level in the first place. All athletes have different levels of endurance and physical ability – that’s why we train relentlessly
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These two quotes just seem so wildly off, I truly just don't understand the perspective or argument being put forward. It all feels so off-kilter. I also don't understand how there is a ban in place for this person, when they are (I presume) free to race in open categories etc?
 
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