Martinez also played as an AM, does that make him an offensive minded player? Keane is better defensively and offensively than martinez.
Transfer Muppet Draft 1st Semi Final - MJJ vs Annahnomoss
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Martinez also played as an AM, does that make him an offensive minded player? Keane is better defensively and offensively than martinez.
Not with Fabregas in there.
Decisions, decisions, decisions...
I would normally go with Annah, but the combination of Rooney-Henry up front and Giggs-Ronaldo on the wings is insanely good when you play counter attacking football. So, let's see what we've got here piece by piece.
MJJ:
De Gea is an excellent choice for this kind of set up, he's one of the best in the world when he doesn't have to stray far from the goal line. He is highly concentrated and he can make unbelievable saves. Zanetti is also very good choice at RB. He's tireless, not many wingers can beat him on 1v1, i think you'll be fine there. He is also a leader, one of the three born leaders you have in your defense. As for Cole, let me have my doubts. Imo he's one of the most overrated LBs in the history of the game. He'll be the weak link in your defense, he can't cope with Muller's off the ball movement and physicality. I'd really like to know if you have plans to help him. If you plan to let him 1v1 with Muller, i can assure you, you'll be in trouble.
The pairing of Nesta and Stam is superb when you're defending deep in your box, excellent choice. Stam is a beast in aerial duels and a strong, physical presence in front of the keeper. He also earned much respect at United although Fergie's tactics often left our CBs exposed. Nesta is very clever and his positioning is exceptional in the box. They both had high concentration levels, they never hesitated and they were never afraid to make tough decisions during the game and they both were born leaders. It will be very hard to break them down if they have cover in front of them, especially when the other team doesn't have a forward with the physical abilities to annoy them, right Annah?
Which brings us to the main issue, the midfield. If you want this to be a success, then keeping your defensive shape with two narrow lines of four close to each other is a key factor. I really don't understand what you mean by saying that Keane will be all over the place trying to make it difficult for the opposition and steal the ball. People mention yesterday's game and how Real Madrid coped with Pep's tactics. I'll use the same example: I didn't see Alonso and Modric moving out of position and chase the ball. Their main focus was to narrow the spaces and protect the channels in front of the CBs. Team cohesion is a must here.
Otherwise, your midfield choices have many pluses. I don't share the others' worries about Fabregas' defensive contribution. He can play deeper, as he can hold the ball, he can run with it through the middle and his vision is great. Keane is great DM, especially when it comes to closing down opponents, stealing balls and regaining possession. In his prime he could also run with the ball through the midfield and that's a bonus for you which not even Real Madrid had in yesterday's game with Alonso.
Giggs and Ronaldo are as good as it gets on the wings and Rooney-Henry can create lots of problems whenever they find open spaces.
Annahnomoss
Valdes is a good choice for this style of football, he's good with the ball and confident when he must leave his box.
Lahm and Abidal are also very good choices. In my eyes Lahm is the most complete full back in the world, right now, a very balanced player. He can defend, he can do overlaps-underlaps and participate in the attacking moves and he can pass or cross the ball pretty well. Abidal is exactly how you described him. I suppose you'll use him more as a third CB when needed.
I guess neither Pique nor Puyol were available at CB. You have made a good choice with Silva. He's world class, one of the very few CBs who can defend with confidence outside their box. I can't say the same about Cannavaro unfortunately. I always remember him, and the other great Italian defenders of his generation, for defending superbly in the box, playing for sides which chose to defend deep and fought to keep a clean sheet at all costs. I can't remember him playing in a high defense line. I believe he will be exposed against a side with so much pace. I know i'll get the stick from many people here, but i simply don't believe he's fast enough to play in this team. If Henry and Rooney "mark" him and try to find themselves in 1v1 situations against him you'll be dead before you know it.
So, we come to the main point. They'll be times when the 6 sec. rule won't work. What will you do when MJJ's team manage to get the ball out of their third and hit on the counter? If Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney and Henry find themselves in the attacking third, they'll have the advantage even if Abidal stays back to cover for Lahm (who'll be doing the overlaps) and Busquets drops deeper. It will still be 4 attackers vs 4 defenders (4 chances for 1v1), that's pretty much the reason Bayern were annihilated yesterday.
Don't tell me this is Barca of 09-11, i know that. Find me that extra defender whenever MJJ hits you on the counter, a proper cover for Cannavaro and my vote will be yours.
I would normally go with Annah, but the combination of Rooney-Henry up front and Giggs-Ronaldo on the wings is insanely good when you play counter attacking football. So, let's see what we've got here piece by piece.
MJJ:
De Gea is an excellent choice for this kind of set up, he's one of the best in the world when he doesn't have to stray far from the goal line. He is highly concentrated and he can make unbelievable saves. Zanetti is also very good choice at RB. He's tireless, not many wingers can beat him on 1v1, i think you'll be fine there. He is also a leader, one of the three born leaders you have in your defense. As for Cole, let me have my doubts. Imo he's one of the most overrated LBs in the history of the game. He'll be the weak link in your defense, he can't cope with Muller's off the ball movement and physicality. I'd really like to know if you have plans to help him. If you plan to let him 1v1 with Muller, i can assure you, you'll be in trouble.
The pairing of Nesta and Stam is superb when you're defending deep in your box, excellent choice. Stam is a beast in aerial duels and a strong, physical presence in front of the keeper. He also earned much respect at United although Fergie's tactics often left our CBs exposed. Nesta is very clever and his positioning is exceptional in the box. They both had high concentration levels, they never hesitated and they were never afraid to make tough decisions during the game and they both were born leaders. It will be very hard to break them down if they have cover in front of them, especially when the other team doesn't have a forward with the physical abilities to annoy them, right Annah?
Which brings us to the main issue, the midfield. If you want this to be a success, then keeping your defensive shape with two narrow lines of four close to each other is a key factor. I really don't understand what you mean by saying that Keane will be all over the place trying to make it difficult for the opposition and steal the ball. People mention yesterday's game and how Real Madrid coped with Pep's tactics. I'll use the same example: I didn't see Alonso and Modric moving out of position and chase the ball. Their main focus was to narrow the spaces and protect the channels in front of the CBs. Team cohesion is a must here.
Otherwise, your midfield choices have many pluses. I don't share the others' worries about Fabregas' defensive contribution. He can play deeper, as he can hold the ball, he can run with it through the middle and his vision is great. Keane is great DM, especially when it comes to closing down opponents, stealing balls and regaining possession. In his prime he could also run with the ball through the midfield and that's a bonus for you which not even Real Madrid had in yesterday's game with Alonso.
Giggs and Ronaldo are as good as it gets on the wings and Rooney-Henry can create lots of problems whenever they find open spaces.
Annahnomoss
Valdes is a good choice for this style of football, he's good with the ball and confident when he must leave his box.
Lahm and Abidal are also very good choices. In my eyes Lahm is the most complete full back in the world, right now, a very balanced player. He can defend, he can do overlaps-underlaps and participate in the attacking moves and he can pass or cross the ball pretty well. Abidal is exactly how you described him. I suppose you'll use him more as a third CB when needed.
I guess neither Pique nor Puyol were available at CB. You have made a good choice with Silva. He's world class, one of the very few CBs who can defend with confidence outside their box. I can't say the same about Cannavaro unfortunately. I always remember him, and the other great Italian defenders of his generation, for defending superbly in the box, playing for sides which chose to defend deep and fought to keep a clean sheet at all costs. I can't remember him playing in a high defense line. I believe he will be exposed against a side with so much pace. I know i'll get the stick from many people here, but i simply don't believe he's fast enough to play in this team. If Henry and Rooney "mark" him and try to find themselves in 1v1 situations against him you'll be dead before you know it.
So, we come to the main point. They'll be times when the 6 sec. rule won't work. What will you do when MJJ's team manage to get the ball out of their third and hit on the counter? If Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney and Henry find themselves in the attacking third, they'll have the advantage even if Abidal stays back to cover for Lahm (who'll be doing the overlaps) and Busquets drops deeper. It will still be 4 attackers vs 4 defenders (4 chances for 1v1), that's pretty much the reason Bayern were annihilated yesterday.
Don't tell me this is Barca of 09-11, i know that. Find me that extra defender whenever MJJ hits you on the counter, a proper cover for Cannavaro and my vote will be yours.
Being good defensively doesn't mean you can teleport from being near the opponents box to a double pivots defensive midfield position when you lose the ball. Keane will be seen trying to enter my box or being very near it if he has enough time, if you lose the ball I have a great opportunity.
That is why United 99 were so great offensively and so bad defensively. We attacked with both CM's, both wingers and both strikers. We scored an awful lot and conceded an awful lot.
The problem came in when you started drawing random comparisons. Like the Inter one, which really has very little in common with your team. Same with Bayern.
If you want to play like Bayern last season, you need both your CMs to put in a top defensive shift, not just one. Keane is great, yes, but I am not sure how he could better what Bastian did in those two games, he was as good as you can get as an all action CM in those games.
The tactic you are portraying doesn't really add up with Cesc in there at the very least, nor is it the way United of Fergie at their peak played. Which is weird given the United connection.
This is bordering on sophistry, though, my friend. If you all of a sudden use Bayern '13 as the blueprint, it will be apparent that Keane-Fabregas isn't a perfect match for Martinez-Schweinsteiger. But that is obviously neither here nor there. The side isn't a replica of Bayern '13.
Is Roy Keane and Cesc Fabregas, based on what we know about their characteristics as players, an unbalanced midfield pairing in such a set-up? I think not.
Not with Fabregas in there.
He is a weak point indeed. Cole and Stam will have their work cut out with him getting beaten while keeping tabs on Muller, let alone Messi. I think Muller's movement in particular could prove a problem.
That said, Scholes was no Davids either, but you still would want him to play those Hollywood balls for Ronaldo, Henry and Giggs.
It's just something the rest of the team has to work hard to contain so they can benefit from Fab's passing range, which they absolutely need. For starters, Giggs being on that flank and a disciplined hardworking teamplayer will help. Cristaino doesn't provide that on the other side but that's guarded by Keane, Zanetti and Nesta so it's no biggie.
http://www.espnfc.com/en/gamecast/364639/gamecast.html?soccernet=true
Go there and look at martinez and schweign. heat maps.
Look at how both of them dont stray past the halfway line for the majority of the match. Thats what I was trying to potray while using that match as an example.
The fact that keane is far superior than martinez helps me in this case as he can do a better job than martinez and even venture forward if its safe to do so.
While fabregas might be weaker defensively than schweign. but he has the tactical discipline for this role.
Go there and look at martinez and schweign. heat maps.
Look at how both of them dont stray past the halfway line for the majority of the match. Thats what I was trying to potray while using that match as an example.
The fact that keane is far superior than martinez helps me in this case as he can do a better job than martinez and even venture forward if its safe to do so.
While fabregas might be weaker defensively than schweign. but he has the tactical discipline for this role.
@TheRedDevil'sAdvocate The high press forces the opponent to first beat the first wave of the press. Silva-Messi-Muller if the ball is by his defenders, or most of my midfielders/attackers if he gets the ball between my midfield and offense. This forces him to play at least one pass, usually a minimum of two to put these players out of the play - and earn enough space to allow someone to find a cross field ball.
During this press my defense has the time to fall down if it seems as if the press won't work, and Cannavaro, Thiago and Abidal are all very fast defenders. That is why we rarely saw Ronaldo dominate Barcelona even if he was an incredible counter-attacker. Rarely are you played completely free behind the line against Barcelona at their peak.
Most times when someone got really clear chances against Barcelona it was due to individual mistakes by Puyol/Pique who were always bound a mistake here and there.
During this press my defense has the time to fall down if it seems as if the press won't work, and Cannavaro, Thiago and Abidal are all very fast defenders. That is why we rarely saw Ronaldo dominate Barcelona even if he was an incredible counter-attacker. Rarely are you played completely free behind the line against Barcelona at their peak.
Most times when someone got really clear chances against Barcelona it was due to individual mistakes by Puyol/Pique who were always bound a mistake here and there.
If we're talking players in their pomp - which we clearly are - then for me the Fabregas here is the central midfielder who played for Wenger. Not the shift-around, never really a good fit, half-arse attacking midfielder of some sort he has been for Barcelona.
I would be a lot more comfortable with Scholes in there as well. Scholes' defensive work is really underrated to start with. His infamous tackling aside, his closing down and work rate was always top notch. Plus his awareness was absolutely god level. We couldn't have ridden all those years on the back of that midfield pairing if Scholes always needed everyone else to work for him, which I'd say Cesc does to a much bigger extent.
But that's a trouble against Barca, if you start chasing them like mad dogs, it usually backfires. I can distinctly remember a classico where Madrid came out like that thinking they would beat them at their own game and not allow time on the ball. The catalans would never have any of that, and would just enjoy tiring the team out and pick them apart after 40-50 odd minutes. The best approach against THAT Barca was simply put a wall of men behind the ball and close down strongly around 30 odd yards from goal while letting them pass further up if they want to. Which is why it's really tough to cover up midfield frailties defensively with attacking players. I mean sure a hard working attacking would be great but you need the midfield to be absolutely top notch in terms of discipline, first and foremost.
My favourite battle in this game which hasn't been talked enough of is a prime Nesta against a prime Messi. Can't think of a better name than Nesta to give a game of his life to Leo.
Can't think of a better name than Nesta to give a game of his life to Leo.
I too am baffled at the number of random team encounters that have been brought up. What the feck does last night or last year have anything to do with peak Barca? Imagine the changes in personnel for us in 2009 and 2011 and try work out if it would have been different.@TheRedDevil'sAdvocate I have stated many times that my team will only be pressing my half. That goes for keane as well, he is going to win the ball but only in my half in a specific space. My plan is to make the midfield area as crowded as possible with Annah's team missing the width that the fullbacks gave pep.
In 2009, we played ronaldo as a striker though which I think was a major reason why we struggled to get him on the ball.
Its not just me though, Annah brings up united 99 and you immediately assume thats how I am setting my side up. The inter comparison was made because you made the statement that Pep's barca kept destroying mourinho while the bayern match was to give a visual representation of my plans to crowd the midfield area and hit Annah on the counter.
Same. I think I mentioned that in the OP as well. Fabregas in the PL was my favourite midfielder and one of the world's best. Shame he has nothing on carrick though according to annah.
Voted for MJJ.
Couple of points -
- MJJ point about not much width in the side is correct. I don't rate Abidal to add much attacking wise or let's put it this way, MJJ would be happy to have him on the ball out wide all day long if other players are marked. Lahm is theone who would provide width on right but he is not a playmaker like Alves. At best he wll cross the ball which does not suit Annah's strategy at all. I get flashbacks of Alves crossing incessantly against Chelsea in 09.
- Barca lovers completely overlook their away record in CL. Take the Inter home tie which ended 3-1 for example. That's not peak Barca, because well.... they lost.. Then against Arsenal, they drew 2-2 and then lost 2-1 and that was a poor Arsenal side at that. Who destroyed Barca? Walcott! Peak Giggs, Ronaldo and Henry running at that high line with 2, at most 3 left at the back? There is no way MJJ won't score in this match.
- I can't believe people are questioning Nesta and Stam. They are perfect for this set up. MJJ won't get much time on the ball to have his CBs ponder about picking someone. Side note about people massively overrating Rio's ball playing abilities, he is good at hoof balls mostly. Then Rooney and Giggs are perfectly capable of playing a more defensive role when Annah has the ball. Cesc for all his criticism did fine for Arsenal in 2 man MFs at times.
- Then there is Silva/Muller. This is clearly Barca 10/11 since no Etoo type there. That Barca had Villa and Pedro. Can Muller play the Pedro role, perhaps. Though I don't think a tucked in Cole will allow Muller to ghost past him. Then Silva there is clearly not a like for like for Villa. I am not sure what he adds here which already is not present? He won't get to control the game with Xavi and Iniesta in there. I don't rate his role for Spain for this very reason, it takes him out of his best role. He is redundant as far as I am concerned.
Couple of points -
- MJJ point about not much width in the side is correct. I don't rate Abidal to add much attacking wise or let's put it this way, MJJ would be happy to have him on the ball out wide all day long if other players are marked. Lahm is theone who would provide width on right but he is not a playmaker like Alves. At best he wll cross the ball which does not suit Annah's strategy at all. I get flashbacks of Alves crossing incessantly against Chelsea in 09.
- Barca lovers completely overlook their away record in CL. Take the Inter home tie which ended 3-1 for example. That's not peak Barca, because well.... they lost.
. Then against Arsenal, they drew 2-2 and then lost 2-1 and that was a poor Arsenal side at that. Who destroyed Barca? Walcott! Peak Giggs, Ronaldo and Henry running at that high line with 2, at most 3 left at the back? There is no way MJJ won't score in this match. - I can't believe people are questioning Nesta and Stam. They are perfect for this set up. MJJ won't get much time on the ball to have his CBs ponder about picking someone. Side note about people massively overrating Rio's ball playing abilities, he is good at hoof balls mostly. Then Rooney and Giggs are perfectly capable of playing a more defensive role when Annah has the ball. Cesc for all his criticism did fine for Arsenal in 2 man MFs at times.
- Then there is Silva/Muller. This is clearly Barca 10/11 since no Etoo type there. That Barca had Villa and Pedro. Can Muller play the Pedro role, perhaps. Though I don't think a tucked in Cole will allow Muller to ghost past him. Then Silva there is clearly not a like for like for Villa. I am not sure what he adds here which already is not present? He won't get to control the game with Xavi and Iniesta in there. I don't rate his role for Spain for this very reason, it takes him out of his best role. He is redundant as far as I am concerned.
I meant Madrid precisely there, in terms of counter attacking it doesn't get better than that team and they never stood a chance against the peak Barca.
There was really no reason I would have brought up Inter because of the contrast between them and your team. If we are bringing up references than it should be relevant, unlike last season's semi final.
And that is where our disagreement started as mourinho quickly figured out barca's game plan and turned the tide which resulted in pep needing a break and leaving barca.
The inter match is relevant due to them crowding the midfield area and barca struggling, same as with bayern but I see this is something we are clearly never going to agree on so I will leave it.
Voted for MJJ.
Couple of points -
- MJJ point about not much width in the side is correct. I don't rate Abidal to add much attacking wise or let's put it this way, MJJ would be happy to have him on the ball out wide all day long if other players are marked. Lahm is theone who would provide width on right but he is not a playmaker like Alves. At best he wll cross the ball which does not suit Annah's strategy at all. I get flashbacks of Alves crossing incessantly against Chelsea in 09.
- Barca lovers completely overlook their away record in CL. Take the Inter home tie which ended 3-1 for example. That's not peak Barca, because well.... they lost.
- I can't believe people are questioning Nesta and Stam. They are perfect for this set up. MJJ won't get much time on the ball to have his CBs ponder about picking someone. Side note about people massively overrating Rio's ball playing abilities, he is good at hoof balls mostly. Then Rooney and Giggs are perfectly capable of playing a more defensive role when Annah has the ball. Cesc for all his criticism did fine for Arsenal in 2 man MFs at times.
- Then there is Silva/Muller. This is clearly Barca 10/11 since no Etoo type there. That Barca had Villa and Pedro. Can Muller play the Pedro role, perhaps. Though I don't think a tucked in Cole will allow Muller to ghost past him. Then Silva there is clearly not a like for like for Villa. I am not sure what he adds here which already is not present? He won't get to control the game with Xavi and Iniesta in there. I don't rate his role for Spain for this very reason, it takes him out of his best role. He is redundant as far as I am concerned.
Thankyou, you just summarized it a lot better than what I have been trying to do.
Inter starting line up from 3-1 match -
Cesar
Zanetti
Lucio
Samuel
Maicon
Motta
Cambiasso
Sneijder
Pandev
Etoo
Milito
There are only two issues I see- not having a second DM to shield the defense alongside Keane but then Keane is massively better than Motta or Esteban. Peak Ronaldo not putting in the work rate of Pandev.
Also MJJ back 4 is better man for man. Rooney can play the snejider role easy, I hate him currently but he has done a defensive job for us on many a occasions. Giggs on left can do the same job defensive job Etoo did but even better.
Cesar
Zanetti
Lucio
Samuel
Maicon
Motta
Cambiasso
Sneijder
Pandev
Etoo
Milito
There are only two issues I see- not having a second DM to shield the defense alongside Keane but then Keane is massively better than Motta or Esteban. Peak Ronaldo not putting in the work rate of Pandev.
Also MJJ back 4 is better man for man. Rooney can play the snejider role easy, I hate him currently but he has done a defensive job for us on many a occasions. Giggs on left can do the same job defensive job Etoo did but even better.
For the first ten minutes it worked, we shook them up a fair bit. Then they scored
He never saw the ball again.Bringing up Madrid as a perfect side to beat Barca then is wrong. They never had the right back 4 to take them on. Ramos.. I don't need to say anything about him while Pepe who do I rate went through an insane period then when he was more interested in injuring people than defending.
For the first ten minutes it worked, we shook them up a fair bit. Then they scored
Same thing happened in '11 as well. Perfect start and then it all went to shit.
No one is disagreeing on what Inter did can be a valid tactic. But what's the point of that here, when there's no similarity between what they did and you are doing.
Voted for MJJ.
Couple of points -
- MJJ point about not much width in the side is correct. I don't rate Abidal to add much attacking wise or let's put it this way, MJJ would be happy to have him on the ball out wide all day long if other players are marked. Lahm is theone who would provide width on right but he is not a playmaker like Alves. At best he wll cross the ball which does not suit Annah's strategy at all. I get flashbacks of Alves crossing incessantly against Chelsea in 09.
- Barca lovers completely overlook their away record in CL. Take the Inter home tie which ended 3-1 for example. That's not peak Barca, because well.... they lost.
- I can't believe people are questioning Nesta and Stam. They are perfect for this set up. MJJ won't get much time on the ball to have his CBs ponder about picking someone. Side note about people massively overrating Rio's ball playing abilities, he is good at hoof balls mostly. Then Rooney and Giggs are perfectly capable of playing a more defensive role when Annah has the ball. Cesc for all his criticism did fine for Arsenal in 2 man MFs at times.
- Then there is Silva/Muller. This is clearly Barca 10/11 since no Etoo type there. That Barca had Villa and Pedro. Can Muller play the Pedro role, perhaps. Though I don't think a tucked in Cole will allow Muller to ghost past him. Then Silva there is clearly not a like for like for Villa. I am not sure what he adds here which already is not present? He won't get to control the game with Xavi and Iniesta in there. I don't rate his role for Spain for this very reason, it takes him out of his best role. He is redundant as far as I am concerned.
Cole at his best was nothing short of extremely good at containing tricky wingers, far trickier ones than Müller. Much as I dislike him, Ashley Cole was always very solid defensively for a basically modern fullback. Much more so than Evra, one should add, if we're comparing United's back four circa '08 to this one.*
* Though why we should is another matter - re: what anto said above.
Yeah. I remember the goal Pedro scored against us at Wembley, completely free. Won't happen here.
Sorry read this again. You actually believe that Pep left Barca because Mourinho turned the tide?
I just posted the point in the post you quoted and ignored.
Aldo. just leave it, you have your opinion and I have mine. This is clearly going nowhere.
I would but I am really bored right now.
I would but I am really bored right now.
Well I am not, so find some other entertainment.Go read the WW game or post there if you are still alive.
Go read the WW game or post there if you are still alive.
First credit to Anna for bringing in those barca players in one team. But tbh I'm not a fan of barca's tiki taka, on the other side MJJ team comprise of individual brilliance who are perfectly suited for counter attack.Giggs and Ronaldo can easy stretch the pitch with Anna's full backs occupied on these two.Messi vs Henry, with the given defense aganist each I can see Henry gets the upper hand here.
This is a good overall analysis, but the only area where I think Muller will get the better of Cole is in the air (see the CL final) - in 1v1 situations Cole will be comfortable there.
Tad harsh. He has built a really quality fast attacking side there.
It's a quality team from MJJ and just shit timing for Annah.
It's an amazing side, but he's come up against the worst possible team for me. I would have probably voted for him against the other two teams.
Pretty much this.