But there you have it. I don't think Nesta would be stressed - arguably less so than Rio. Nesta was an immense defender, lest we forget - and not one to lose his head under pressure. In terms of composure under pressure you could hardly ask for better players than Nesta and Stam. None of them are great passers, ideal for instigating counter attacks - but let's not pretend Rio was some sort of Passarella either. If what you require is a CB who is truly great at this sort of thing, that will have to come at the expense of something else.
Transfer Muppet Draft 1st Semi Final - MJJ vs Annahnomoss
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
But there you have it. I don't think Nesta would be stressed - arguably less so than Rio. Nesta was an immense defender, lest we forget - and not one to lose his head under pressure. In terms of composure under pressure you could hardly ask for better players than Nesta and Stam. None of them are great passers, ideal for instigating counter attacks - but let's not pretend Rio was some sort of Passarella either. If what you require is a CB who is truly great at this sort of thing, that will have to come at the expense of something else.
I don't see it as the Maureen approach at all. It's much closer to a Fergie style counter attacking set-up than anything Maureen would've gone for.
Pep's Barca's peak is 08-11, I remember a 5-0 thrashing at the Camp Nou around November 2010.
As for the last sentence, that's just rubbish.
I thought so as well which is why I called it an attacking 4-4-2 but now it seems that Fabregas is there to soakl pressure sitting in front of his defense. Doesn't really add up.
Don't think that's true for the 3-1 win in the first leg. I agree that MJJ's team doesn't resemble Inter's team at all, but they definitely didn't park the bus. Milito upfront, Eto'o as an inside right, Pandev the hard working winger on the left and Sneijder as a clear AM with Motta and Cambiasso in CM. Hell, even Maicon made more than a few runs forward. It was a well organised defense, but they attacked a lot.
I wouldn't use that game as an example for beating peak Barca though. Iniesta was injured and Keita wasn't really a quality replacement and Messi as an AM behind Ibra wasn't working at all. And Inter lost the return leg when they parked the bus, so that isn't really a good example for beating them that way either.
Thats because its more of a Fergie side than a mourinho side. The closest comparison would be the bayern match against barca where bayern's midfielder stayed deep to deny barca space and started counter attacks from there.
Which side was at their peak when facing barca?
And yes, that was the first classico of mourinho. He had only been there for three months, it takes time to get a team to gel and fix their issues.
Holy crap, MJJ is running away with the game now? 5-2 for Annah to 9-5 for MJJ now.
Typical United 
Cant make my mind up, must have visited the thread atleast 5 times so far.
Cant make my mind up, must have visited the thread atleast 5 times so far.
This is my view of it. Giggs-Fabregas and Ronaldo are all primarily offensive players. Keane is a box to box CM and will venture forward here in attacks together with Fabregas leaving a very gung-ho side where Giggs, Keane, Fabregas and Ronaldo are all pushing forward.
None of the players in that midfield are suited for parking the bus, launching it up to the forwards, letting them counter and just remain in defensive positions. This very similar to the gung-ho side of United 99, but he has been turned even more gung-ho by removing Beckham on the right and including Ronaldo. As well as replacing Scholes for Fabregas.
Typical United
Cant make my mind up, must have visited the thread atleast 5 times so far.
When in doubt..vote for your favorite united player.
It took some time for him to sort out the defense, not least.
Not trying to hail Maureen here - but objectively speaking he wasn't outplayed by Barca very often.
Thats why I am a big fan of mourinho. For all his flaws, he stopped one of the best possession sides with a flawed real madrid in a short amount of time.
I mean that argument is rubbish. No team goes on facing one world class team after another in a CL run. Who did we face in 07-08 season, which is probably the peak of the team you have tried to recreate? Lyon, Roma, a post Rijkaard with a dressing room in shambles Barca and Chelsea led by Avram Grant. Point is during those 3 years no team came close to dominating that Barca team, and the only time it worked was park the bus completely. It was Jose's first Classico but they faced in the CL semi later that season as well, nothing really changed.
No way would he win this on a non United forum. Credit to him though, he's on a United forum!
That Barca was nowhere near Pep's Barca, nevermind the fact that Xavi, the heartbeat of that team was easily past his peak, so was Puyol.
A major part of that is like I said because there was no team at their peak during that time. We had lost ronaldo and our midfield was a mess, milan still havent recovered. Madrid had a huge list of problems, juventus werent in the CL while bayern were struggling as well.
I repeat there was no truly great side at that time and barca had an easy ride in la liga as well. With most teams playing a style that suited them just fine.
Yeah I agree, what I meant was when off the ball they put almost the whole team behind the ball. Eto'o was almost functioning as a wingback at times. It's nothing Fergie or United have ever attempted, not in the least with the players involved in the game in a 4-4-2.
And yeah as you said there were other factors involved.
Aldo I know it was no where near barca at their peak. I am using that much as an example of my tactics in real life. Not saying the result will be the same but to give an idea as to how I will be playing.
Keane was anything but gung-ho off the ball, though. He was aggressive and positionally aware - on a whole different level from, say, Carrick, who looked completely lost against Barca.
Most teams in la Liga parked the bus against Barca.
I don't see what's the point of saying no major team had peaked during that time. Surely it's obvious that no team has a history of having top team peaking at the same time and them beating them in a single season. Which other top team was peaking during United's peak from 06-08 that we beat?
We had lost Ronaldo? Ronaldo started in the CL final.
That was ronaldo's last match? Unless we somehow got him back for the two years which you pointed out as barca's peak?
06-07 Chelsea were pretty strong and so were Milan in 07 thats off the top of my head.
And no most teams in la liga didnt park the bus, they played attacking football and got slaughtered.
Indeed Keane is world-class of the ball but he is being painted out as a park the bus type of player which is the opposite of what he was. He pushed between box to box in nearly every attack, which is why we conceded so many goals that season(Two times more than in 08 in the league.)
Fabregas isn't a DM either, so he has his entire midfield pushing up in the offense, or do you see Cristiano acting defensive to keep the balance? Giggs then?
He will leave holes more often than not when he attacks, this "park the bus and counter" was never the United philosophy back then. We were a great attacking 4-4-2 which outscored the opponents. He will be leaving plenty of gaps every time he pushes Keane and Fabregas forward, or even just Keane.
Playing Keane, and Fabregas as some sort of balancing DM's is ridiculous, they weren't. Limiting Keane to never push up means heavily hampering half of his game, he was a beast going forward as well in his own physical way..
But that doesn't make sense. This is not a war between counter attacking and tiki taka, is it? Those two systems don't hold any advantage over each other without considering the players and their quality.
That is exactly what we saw last night. Tiki taka being forced on players not used to it, or past their peak like in Barca's case (Messi himself was injured!) is not a defeat of tiki taka, it simply means that the philosophy needs a particular type of set of players and needs to be drilled in them over the years, which is what Annah's team is all about.
How does it not make sense? You and pedro seem to be confused w.r.t my tactics so I posted a match where a team played just that. I dont think you can call bayern's 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 too attacking and my team is going to play similarly not like mourinho's chelsea.
So for amusement, your team is a more offensive gung-ho replica of United 99. Teams playing attacking football gets slaughtered. But you don't because, you park the bus? How is Ronaldo-Keane-Fabregas-Giggs anything near a midfield that parks the bus? All of them are heavily involved in nearly all attacks, none of those CM's will stay back for balance.
Yes that was Ronaldo's last match. It was Pep's first season when he schooled us in the CL final. Our midfield was not in mess, Fletcher was a big loss, yes, but over that season we were hardly dominated in midfield by anyone. I guess you were talking about 2011 final, there's no point talking about that since we were obviously past our peak. I was talking about the year when the Fergie-Ronaldo era was still going on.
Yeah Chelsea were strong, so that's one team. Milan were nothing great, Kaka bullied our second choice defense on one night, that's pretty much it. If that's strong, how is Madrid of Mourinho, United of Fergie, etc not strong? Both were stronger than that Milan team and both lost convincingly to Barca.
Again I would have to point to the bayern match. Ribery-Schweignstieger-Martinez-Robben is as attacking a midfield as mine is.
And you really are misrepresenting keane's role here, dunno if its on purpose or not.
MJJ do you seriously buy this crap about United 99 being defensive and parking the bus? Highest scoring in the CL group-stage all time, conceded among most goals of any league winner in the Premier League ever. This discussion should really be whether you can outscore me or not, that was the United mentality. Going 2 goals down and scoring 3, rather than parking the bus and getting a draw or find a goal.
Your team is more offensive than United 99 and less defensively solid.
Your team is more offensive than United 99 and less defensively solid.
It doesn't make sense to pick out a game of last season's Barca, that too without Messi who had carried them in the league to prove anything in this match. Unless you are trying to imply that a peak Barca would have struggled the same way last season's Barca did?
And again you are drawing a wrong comparison. Cesc is never going to put in a shift like Martinez did, let alone under the pressure of that Barca team. Nor did Bayern have a passenger like you do in Cristiano. They needed everyone to work their socks off, every single player.
That is rubbish, Martinez is a CB/DM, a defensive pivot. Schweinsteiger was used in a much more defensively manner than either Fabregas or Keane. Bayern used a double defensive pivot, two DM's keeping the balance.
I don't know who paints Keane as a park-the-bus player, so I can't comment on that. He clearly wasn't, as you say. That doesn't work to your advantage at all, though. He was exactly the sort of player we missed in our infamous failures against Barcelona, in which we fielded two central midfielders.
Wait now it's United 99? 
From Inter to Bayern to United 99.
United 99 was one of the most gung ho CL winners you will see. It's no surprise we saw scorelines like 2-2 and 3-3 regularly in that competition.
From Inter to Bayern to United 99. United 99 was one of the most gung ho CL winners you will see. It's no surprise we saw scorelines like 2-2 and 3-3 regularly in that competition.
Indeed, the minute I saw MJJ's team I was in the impression that they would exert themselves fully when on the ball, like we always did. It was our philosophy throughout Fergie's reign. Keane and Cesc saoking pressure in front of the defense doesn't really bring the best out of either of them.
Completely agree that Keane is essential in a team to counter a peak tiki taka Barca.
Wait now it's United 99?
United 99 was one of the most gung ho CL winners you will see. It's no surprise we saw scorelines like 2-2 and 3-3 regularly in that competition.
Where have I said its united 99? You really need to read my posts and not pull stuff from the air.
MJJ has stated he is parking the bus here and comparing himself with teams who did so in Inter, Chelsea and Bayern - all completely different from what he has got. Saying the double pivot of Bayern is similar to his Keane-Fabregas who are two box-to-box midfielders. Martinez was very defensive and Schweinsteiger played way more defensive than Keane who was near the opponents box in most offenses which Schweinie was far from.
For the love of God, I am not parking the bus but crowding the midfield area. Keane can easily emulate martinez's role and he is far better as a midfielder to make up for fabregas's shortcomings.
Its all in my OP which you two are ignoring now. Keane is playing the role of a ballwinner in front of defense while fabregas will be sitting deep and passing the ball forward. The plan is to press in my half ala bayern. Thats why am using that game to explain MY tactics not annah's or his team's struggles.
Where did I state that?
Martinez is a CB/DM, a very defensive midfielder and Keane is nothing near that. Keane is a box to box midfielder who is brilliant defensively - but who will be caught in and around the opponents box often in attacks. Martinez is very rarely/never caught that far up the pitch - how can Keane be compared to him? Fabregas is also much more offensively minded than Schweinsteiger in the double pivot.
There is no comparison, Bayern had balance, you don't. You have turned Uniteds 99 midfield in to even more offensive by replacing Beckham who was outstanding defensively to Cristiano who is bad defensively.
Fabregas, Keane, Giggs and Ronaldo will all move fast in to the offense, leaving vast areas for me to attack against on the counter when I win the ball back or you misplace a pass.
I just scanned through and it's all stuff on Real-Barca under Mou, Bayern (a side in transition) last night... I can't see past "what if when we played Barca in 2009 and 2011 we had the 2008 team, with a somewhat better defence, Keano instead of no Fletcher (but a Scholoes downgrade in Fabregas) and Henry".
I can see how the voting reflects people wishing we could replay those finals with MJJs side. I would love to see that.
I can see how the voting reflects people wishing we could replay those finals with MJJs side. I would love to see that.