I see at least six better team, maybe seven. Zero chance to reach top 5. We're just as bad as we were under ten Hag. Same shit, different smell.
Top 4 (let's hope top 5) race
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran discuss a horrific month of December and a depressing FOUR defeats in a row - the latest coming against Wolves and Newcastle.
They discuss how much blame is on Ruben Amorim and rank our squad against other Premier League teams.
Do we have any chance of avoiding defeat at Anfield?
Just two consecutive losses at home is the difference between where we stand tonight stuck in 13th and where we would have been if we had beaten Forest and Bournemouth...5th place.
That's right. we'd be in 5th place tonight, but for 2 embarrassing home defeats.
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That's right. we'd be in 5th place tonight, but for 2 embarrassing home defeats.
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We should be glad if we make top 10.
Came to post exactly this. Let’s get in the top half before we talk about European places.
On a positive note; we are only 6 points behind 5th.
On 28 points, which would have been equal to Forest in 4th too.
Edit: in fact if you take away the -4 goal difference from those two defeats and turn them into a +2 for two wins, we would be in 4th...
This is what i noticed too. Unbelievable really i so annoying. Especially because our both home defeats were against teams which nearly were relegated last season.
Theories after theories... If we could have won against this and that then we would be in 4th or 5th place whatever and so on. And all this after an embarrassing defeat again. Just a waste of time. I was wondering about the form of the teams in the 4th and 5th place. Let's see. 4th: Forest: W,L,W,W,W. 5th: Bournemouth: W,W,W,D,W. Ours: W,L,L,W,L. Even the 9th place Fulham is unbeaten in their last 5 matches. Before the start of this season i predicted 7th place finish. Apparently i was too optimistic.
13th or 14th just above relegation we finish 50 to 54 pts max. Could even be lower imo.
Amorin is using the league like a pre season for him , I think he's using the whole season to find out what we got. If we get 10th be a great achievement.
Amorin is using the league like a pre season for him , I think he's using the whole season to find out what we got. If we get 10th be a great achievement.
Spreadex are currently quoting us to finish on 56pts which could see us finish anywhere between 6th-11th depending if we better or drop below that quote by 2-3 points.
I think 56 is way too optimistic. Comparing like-for-like results with last season, replacing the relegated teams with the promoted teams, then we are currently 7pts worse off.
The trouble is we've got a run of games coming up over Xmas where we picked up quite a few points and I'm struggling to see how we'll match those results. (Wolves 3, Newcastle 3, Liverpool 1).
So, after the Liverpool game we could be a lot worse off compared to last season.
Hopefully, there are re-inforcements coming in January and RA will have some players who will suit his system better.
Maybe, it's going to be 1 out then 1 in. In which case, we''l see who it was that did such a good job in summer in moving all those players on - Ashworth or Wilcox?
I think 56 is way too optimistic. Comparing like-for-like results with last season, replacing the relegated teams with the promoted teams, then we are currently 7pts worse off.
The trouble is we've got a run of games coming up over Xmas where we picked up quite a few points and I'm struggling to see how we'll match those results. (Wolves 3, Newcastle 3, Liverpool 1).
So, after the Liverpool game we could be a lot worse off compared to last season.
Hopefully, there are re-inforcements coming in January and RA will have some players who will suit his system better.
Maybe, it's going to be 1 out then 1 in. In which case, we''l see who it was that did such a good job in summer in moving all those players on - Ashworth or Wilcox?
Have pretty much accepted that will be lucky to finish in the top 10
We’re not going to finish in the top half.
Wow, pessimism here.
We are finishing 5th or in worst case scenario 6th. I have no doubts. For that we have enough quality.
We are finishing 5th or in worst case scenario 6th. I have no doubts. For that we have enough quality.
We are "only" 7 points from 5th place. How? 
To claim that Villa and Newcastle are not better than us is really something. To me it is very obvious. 5th is only achievable if we do some magic transfers in January. Too many fans overestimate our mediocre players.
No. We have just lost two in a row without scoring.
They're not better than us.
How are you defining “better”?
If we compare the talent available in the squad. I don't think those two clubs are better than United, at all.
We don’t need to concern ourselves with top 4/5 talk.
Agree. Liverpool, Arsenal and Man City for the first 3 positions. Chelsea and Man Utd in battle for the fourth and fifth spots. Newcastle, Villa and Tottenham in Europa and Conference League.
If that’s how you’re defining it, I see where you’re coming from.
Rashford is talented. Erikson is talented. Casemiro is one of the most talented DMs of the UCL era. However, none of the are have consistently performed well in the last two years. The latter two are physically shot and Rashford has only had a couple top class seasons at the age of 27.
I wouldn’t say any of them are better players than those available to those other teams, if we define better as more effective at contributing to winning football matches.
Eriksen and Casemiro have declined physically, and I'm not thinking about them when saying those teams aren't better than us.
I'm thinking about the likes of Fernandes, Onana, de Ligt, Dalot, Mazraoui, Maguire, Rashford, Hojlund, Mainoo, Yoro, and Amad. Most of these guys would start for at least one, and some of them for both Newcastle and Villa. Especially Bruno, de Ligt, Mainoo, Maguire, and probably Rashford too.
I know people won't see it this way, because the squad has been underperforming for over a year now, but they haven't forgotten how to play football.
No, this squad performs badly for years now, but not underperforming as they are simply this bad. The only reason why guys like you think they are underperforming because the results are bad. But this isn't that simple. The thing is, the competition became a lot tougher. When we finished third last time (2022-23) apart from City and Arsenal EVERY other teams were struggling. Chelsea, Liverpool were crap and the small teams also did not perform well apart from Brighton. This year is totally different. Liverpool, Chelsea are brilliant, Arsenal is good and some small teams perform brilliantly. Forest, Fulham (unbeaten in their last 6 matches), Bournemouth are having a great run, even Brentford score lots of goals, Newcastle won their last 3... So even if we could play at the same level as we did in the 2022-23 season most likely we wouldn't finish in the top 6. If i look at the squads, i see at least 7 better teams. And yes, we could talk about the 4-5th place finish but we're 14th, and if i look at the current form (LLWLL) only ONE team, the absolut last Southampton (LLLDL) is worse than us. Absolutely embarrassing.
When I saw this post quoted down the thread, I thought it was from September or something.
Damn, that's some blind optimism after watching the last three games.
Fernandes has been the only constant (and Captain of) a midfield that has been disfunctional for two seasons.
Onana has been responsible for countless blunders
de Ligt last great season was half a decade ago in a relatively weak Dutch league leading to him being surplus to requirements at Juve and Bayern
Maguires last great season was half a decade ago at Leicester and would be at West Ham right now if he agreed to a pay cut
Hojlund has never had a great season in a top league.
Ditto Mainoo.
Ditto Yoro.
Ditto Amad.
Not only are overrating United players, you're seriously underrating PL players that happen to not play for a "big" club. Hojlund would struggle to make the bench at Newcastle or Villa if everyone was fit. I mean that literally. He's obviously not displacing Isak or Watkins. But Wilson got 9 goals in 9 starts last season and Duran has 7 in 4 starts this season.
United players are often bought for huge fees and given huge wages. And they obviously play for a huge club. Some of them even have a huge medal collection. But very few of them consistently play football better than players that happen to be employed by Newcastle or Villa in the last couple of seasons.
Sorry but
Nothing about the players themselves, just what they achieved. Reveals a lot about how much you know about their real levels.
A lot of what you're claiming is just straight up incorrect too, like saying Maguire was last good when he was at Leicester.
Agreed, good post and I think most United fans would also agree on this. There is a lot more than simple talent, simple talent isn't enough. SAF's teams in his later years are a classic example. O'Shea, Brown, Fabio- the midfield he set up against us, a midfield of defence when most of their team was injured, was not talented than the players we had then. Arshavin, Nasri, Cesc etc....but they played like a team. Which is what teams are doing now, you're right there is no way Hojlund would start for any team in the Top 8 right now.
There is also a trap of 'we are only xyz pts away from #4' that fans make a massive mistake of doing. Utd fans did this all last season around 15th game mark versus us. The problem with this is the league balances out around 20 games. An example is next 3 games United have, they're favourites to win none. This 5 pts game probably will be 10 by then.
Man. United will finish closer to relegation zone than 5th (if that becomes active for CL this season) in points margins imo.
You look like a 47-48 point team to me. Probably a late winning run under Amorim but not enough to do anything. 18th finishes on 33 points and last season Spurs finished 5th on 66 points so very possible Forest can get up to mid 60s points range now.
You look like a 47-48 point team to me. Probably a late winning run under Amorim but not enough to do anything. 18th finishes on 33 points and last season Spurs finished 5th on 66 points so very possible Forest can get up to mid 60s points range now.
It seems like that is your go-to response. Did you even read what I wrote before replying?Sorry but
Nothing about the players themselves, just what they achieved. Reveals a lot about how much you know about their real levels.
A lot of what you're claiming is just straight up incorrect too, like saying Maguire was last good when he was at Leicester.
I didn’t mention any achievements except to acknowledge that some United players have picked up big trophies in their careers.
My post is entirely centred on how well players from teams in the league have consistently played. If you don’t think that’s irrelevant, fine. It’s a bit of an odd stance to take, though.
Yep, you'd think fans of a team that, as you say, once beat an Arsenal team by fielding 7 defenders in the middle of an injury crisis would appreciate that talent alone is nowhere near enough. I don't actually see the great levels of talent with Hojlund anyway, but that's a separate issue.
The point has been made elsewhere, but if Hojlund, Amad, Mainoo and Yoro were coming through a stable team with lots of 24-29 year established team mates, they could be integrated carefully. As it is, they're been overhyped and sometimes coming up short when the team is relying on them - which they shouldn't be at this stage.
Top (1)5 race is well on, lets go!
Yeah, this is absolutely ridiculous, like a playschool level conversation really. It doesn't matter how many points away are we from the 4-5th spot, what matters is that ALL the 13th teams above us on the table are performing better. Like Fulham, only one loss in their last 11 outings, while we have 4 in our last 5... And so on. In fact as i wrote a bit earlier only one team, Southampton conceded less points than us lately. One team is worse than us.
Totally agree. Our players are vastly overrated not least Höjlund. Top 5 is undoable this season, maybe also top 10.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to antagonise - I know I'm a guest fan.
I just think it easy to be dismissive of other teams. That's why I put "big" in quotation marks when referring to Newcastle and Villa. They're obviously huge clubs whose history gets written off far too easily. Seeing as they have storied histories and their teams are performing well in the present, what justification is there for habitually underatting their players.
There's been quite a bit of money sloshing around the league for a few years, but clubs are starting to allocate their resources more wisely. I think PSR has actually been quite good in that regard. And while it means the likes of Newcastle can't take a shortcut to success like Chelsea and City did, it also makes it easier for them to keep their squad together. PSR means that they've effectively priced Isak out of a move if the £150m price tag is true. While I bemoan that as an Arsenal fan, I applaud it as a football fan. Why should we be able to completely derail Newcastle's season to reinforce a forward line that we intentionally weakened with outgoings on the Summer?
I just think a little more respect needs to be put on the names of a fair few PL clubs.
It's crazy right? But I see 5th creeping away very fast over the next 5 to 10 games. I really think we are in a battle with a) finishing above 15th and then b) getting into top half.We are "only" 7 points from 5th place. How?
Another season written off although if we manage to do some good business in Jan, fortunes may change and maybe we make a late charge for top 8.
We are in relegation form, only luck is that teams in relegation part are in even worse form. Teams with our point saldo were leaving EPL in the end of season before.
So it's time to forget about table position and to get rid of some players, to implement Amorims system and buy many, many players Mazraoui style who are good and cheap. If that is not achieved and somehow we get to top 6 position, nothing will change.
So it's time to forget about table position and to get rid of some players, to implement Amorims system and buy many, many players Mazraoui style who are good and cheap. If that is not achieved and somehow we get to top 6 position, nothing will change.
Saying we're 'only' X (9) points away from 5th ignores that there are several better teams who are closer. No idea what people are seeing in us to think that it's achievable.
Man United are currently 10/1 to finish the season in the top 4. Rather generous odds I feel.
Yes, I read it. Sorry, but you're way off.