Top 10 greatest players of all time

Tier1: Pele, Maradona, Messi

Tier2: Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano

Tier 3: Platini, Zico, Puskas, Ronaldo R9

Honorable Mentions not in Top 10: Xavi, Matthaus, CR7, Muller, Maldini
 
IMO:

1. Pele: Football's first superstar.
1. Messi: Magical, supremely successful individually and collectively.
3. Maradona: Messi, but just less successful and not as long a career at the very top
4. Di Stefano: Best player in the greatest side of the last century. Could do everything.
5.Cristiano: Goals galore in quantity and importance, longevity, mentality monster. Not as talented as those above and many below him but makes it up to a large extent with his determination.
6. Cruijjff: Revolutionary, best of the 70s alongside..
6. Backenbauer: See Cruijff
8. Platini: Rivalled Maradona in the 80s, that takes something.
9. R9: Could have been near the top but for his serious knee injury; surely if his career had matched his talent would have been just behind Maradona.
10. Van Basten: The best classic no. 9.

Zidane simply lacked consistency in his play. I'd argue Iniesta was at a similar level in big games but more consistent and would put him above Zidane.
Iniesta for club was in a team with Messi, so he was not the best player or talisman in the team. For Spain, it was more debatable as to whether he was the best player, but many would say it was Xavi.

Zidane was France's best player in their dominant period, no debate. Zidane was Madrid's best player when they won the Champions League. That's the difference. I'm a big admirer of Iniesta, but I've got to be fair here.
 
I've read Zidane being called overrated here so many times that he has become underrated.

The guy used to be the player who set the tempo in midfield in addition to being one of the main driving forces in the final third for his teams and he did both so effortlessly. He should also get extra points for his style considering it was also very effective, I would rather watch him over any player in my lifetime. Another aspect of his game that gets overlooked is how physical it was, he was a bit of a hard worker compared to other similar no.10s of his era.
 
I disagree on that actually (my list is not serious). Robben carried our national team for 10 years and was world class for almost his entire career. Van Basten is more illustrious and part of that brilliant Milan trio, but purely from an effectiveness level I prefer Robben.

Robben was a one man team.

I also have Igor Paixao above the likes of Seedorf, Van Persie, Messi, Pele and Ronaldo by the way...
Van Basten won the Ballon D'Or 3 times and was the main player in your only international trophy win. In addition to back to back European Cups (other than Ronaldo's Madrid, the only team to go back to back in the last 45 years). I think Robben is nowhere near him, to be quite honest, but opinions vary.
 
Van Basten was better than Robben, I don't understand how anybody who saw both play could think otherwise

Gullit, too, though it's closer

That said, as an opponent Robben was petrifying
 
Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi are by far the best players of all time and it's not even a contest. I understand why some people may put Maradona or Pele at the top but it's all based on nostalgia and not facts. CR7 and Messi were consistently the best players in the world for about 15 years straight.

And the disrespect that Ronaldo gets here is kind of insane. No Barca fan would ever cheer for Ronaldo over Messi, so why do (some) Man Utd fans glaze Messi all the time? Messi is an example of PR machine and he's a poster of Fifa and their corruption. Getting Ballon Do'rs that he didn't even deserve (Lewandowski did) and receiving infinite amount of penalties in Qatar World cup while playing in a Qatari owned club.

And his PR propaganda convinced the world that Ronaldo is not that actually good. I respect Messi as a player but Ronaldo's disrespect is mostly due to his PR machine and the biased media. Ronaldo had arguably the better Champions league and club record than Messi did. Messi has had the better international record than Ronaldo and it's pretty obvious.

As I said I believe that CR7 and Messi are both by far the best of all time and putting either Messi or Ronaldo at the top is completely fine and I would put Ronaldo as the GOAT because I personally think that he was a more complete player than Messi. But I don't see fans and the media putting Messi at like 10th place because they find Messi annoying or whatever.
 
Tier1: Pele, Maradona, Messi

Tier2: Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano

Tier 3: Platini, Zico, Puskas, Ronaldo R9

Honorable Mentions not in Top 10: Xavi, Matthaus, CR7, Muller, Maldini
Incredibly controversial to not have Cristiano Ronaldo in your top 10.....
 
Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi are by far the best players of all time and it's not even a contest. I understand why some people may put Maradona or Pele at the top but it's all based on nostalgia and not facts. CR7 and Messi were consistently the best players in the world for about 15 years straight.

And the disrespect that Ronaldo gets here is kind of insane. No Barca fan would ever cheer for Ronaldo over Messi, so why do (some) Man Utd fans glaze Messi all the time? Messi is an example of PR machine and he's a poster of Fifa and their corruption. Getting Ballon Do'rs that he didn't even deserve (Lewandowski did) and receiving infinite amount of penalties in Qatar World cup while playing in a Qatari owned club.

And his PR propaganda convinced the world that Ronaldo is not that actually good. I respect Messi as a player but Ronaldo's disrespect is mostly due to his PR machine and the biased media. Ronaldo had arguably the better Champions league and club record than Messi did. Messi has had the better international record than Ronaldo and it's pretty obvious.

As I said I believe that CR7 and Messi are both by far the best of all time and putting either Messi or Ronaldo at the top is completely fine and I would put Ronaldo as the GOAT because I personally think that he was a more complete player than Messi. But I don't see fans and the media putting Messi at like 10th place because they find Messi annoying or whatever.
It’s not ‘glazing’ it’s because Messi is better than Ronaldo, like admitting Henry was better than Van Nistelrooy back in the day. It’s obviously a contest hence why most people don’t have Ronaldo in their top 3, if it wasn’t then they would all have them top 2. Ronaldo is the example of the PR machine way more than Messi, it’s flattering for Ronaldo to even be compared with Messi like he has, only for PR to push them as equals when they weren’t tbh.
 
Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi are by far the best players of all time and it's not even a contest. I understand why some people may put Maradona or Pele at the top but it's all based on nostalgia and not facts. CR7 and Messi were consistently the best players in the world for about 15 years straight.

And the disrespect that Ronaldo gets here is kind of insane. No Barca fan would ever cheer for Ronaldo over Messi, so why do (some) Man Utd fans glaze Messi all the time? Messi is an example of PR machine and he's a poster of Fifa and their corruption. Getting Ballon Do'rs that he didn't even deserve (Lewandowski did) and receiving infinite amount of penalties in Qatar World cup while playing in a Qatari owned club.

And his PR propaganda convinced the world that Ronaldo is not that actually good. I respect Messi as a player but Ronaldo's disrespect is mostly due to his PR machine and the biased media. Ronaldo had arguably the better Champions league and club record than Messi did. Messi has had the better international record than Ronaldo and it's pretty obvious.

As I said I believe that CR7 and Messi are both by far the best of all time and putting either Messi or Ronaldo at the top is completely fine and I would put Ronaldo as the GOAT because I personally think that he was a more complete player than Messi. But I don't see fans and the media putting Messi at like 10th place because they find Messi annoying or whatever.

You sound impersonal and objective.
 
Most of the players on these lists would've also been capable to challenge Messi to an extent. That's the point. Cristiano is certainly among the best players in history but he's hardly the obvious stand out in that runners up group outside of the big three... he beats most on sheer productivity and longevity but plenty on here are more talented and at least comparably successful (especially considering international performances). It's thin margins and mostly personal preference, there's no right and wrong answer here (unless you put him ahead of Messi or Pelé).

Is it disrespectful to put a player that wasn't even the best in his own generation in the 4-6 place (I feel like it's the roughly average placement of his in this thread) of all-time? Not really.

But there's a perfectly clear reason for that though, he was competing with Messi. There's lists that are putting players that simply wouldn't have given Messi the competition Ronaldo did, for so long. Purely nostalgia choices.
 
Messi has his own tier now. He is the only one of the bunch with absolutely everything. Elite numbers, elite dribbling, elite playmaking and passing, elite finishing and elite longevity.

No one else can compete with his superiority over every part of the attacking game. He is alone at the top.
 
But there's a perfectly clear reason for that though, he was competing with Messi. There's lists that are putting players that simply wouldn't have given Messi the competition Ronaldo did, for so long. Purely nostalgia choices.
Platini and Eusebio were unbelievable players that would have dominated their decades if it wasn’t for Maradona and Pele.

Platini won 3 Ballon d’Ors in a row and was 7th in player of the century for example, Ronaldo took 4 or 5 Euros to beat Platini’s goal total in one. But with time came known as the second best of his generation behind Maradona and with it a different tier in the all-time rankings. Di Stefano said Eusebio was the best player ever, and he was also top 10 of the century. Most of these players mentioned had close to perfect careers with out of this world skill for the time. It’s hardly so disrespectful to consider Ronaldo their equals.
 
I get your point but personally, I see it like this: A couple of great seasons can just be an outlier. But in R9's case, it is clear that it wasn't an outlier, everybody can see it when he was on the pitch. In terms of raw attributes, he was probably the most complete attacker there has ever been. Unfortunately, we never saw what he could have been when his physical time overlapped with maturity, yet to me he's still only behind Messi, Maradona and Pelé. His stats in those seasons speak for themselves, especially consideringat the 90s were probably the lowest scoring period in football history, especially in Italy.

Of course there have been players with much longer peaks but watching them, it feels just wrong to place them ahead of Ronaldo because clearly aren't/weren't better.
Thing is, the knee injury sort off saves his legacy as counterintuitive as it may sound quite simply because his career likely would have gone downhill anyway due to typical Brazilian lifestyle.
 
  • Like
Reactions: harms
But there's a perfectly clear reason for that though, he was competing with Messi. There's lists that are putting players that simply wouldn't have given Messi the competition Ronaldo did, for so long. Purely nostalgia choices.
But who wouldn't? In a hypothetical scenario where they'll get to train and care for their body like modern professionals.

Cruyff would. Di Stéfano would. Puskás would. Beckenbauer would be an odd comparison but even van Dijk gave Messi a run for his money in 2019 (686 vs 679 points) — and Der Kaiser was in another league to him (or any other defender in history) in terms of his ball-playing skills. And van Dijk is pretty great (and probably a match for Beckenbauer in pure defending with an additional bonus of freakish athleticism)! Zico is probably the closest player to Messi in terms of the skillset and style (as well as an overall level)... et cetera.

Messi would, in all likelihood, overcome all aside from Pelé (Maradona would get bored at some point). Just like he overcame Cristiano — and pretty convincingly at that, even though the latter did made an impressive comeback in the second half of the 2010's, significantly closing the gap. But they'll certainly be able to compete with him, winning a few Ballon d'Ors on the way. It's harder to speculate about the likes of Luis Ronaldo or van Basten, whose career got derailed by injuries — would it have been better with modern medicine (and the enormously improved protection of attackers in modern game)? Or were they doomed from the start? But at their absolute peak they certainly could've challenged him. I'd pay an absolute fortune to see peak Maradona, Pelé, Luis Ronaldo and Messi battle it out in fair and similar conditions (and I don't think that Cristiano comes on top in this hypothetical competition unless it's a two-decade long marathon).

Also, most of them were competing with each other (so, other GOAT candidates). Di Stéfano vs Puskás. A bunch of the 1960's greats like Best, Charlton & Eusébio trying their luck against Pelé (and ultimately falling short). Cruyff vs Beckenbauer (with Müller also hanging around). Platini vs Zico vs Maradona, possibly the three greatest pure number 10s that the world had ever seen (although Pelé potentially falls into the same category). Even Luis Ronaldo had Zidane (it's debatable whenever he's a top-10 player or not but for that discussion it's better to go to the Salah thread... I'm still not entirely sure why).

Cristiano isn't worse than those players by any stretch. Probably less gifted in terms of pure ball manipulation skills than the majority of them but his actual footballing talent gets underrated so much with this boring social media driven simplification of "talent vs hard-work" (as in, Messi vs Cristiano). He's certainly more motivated and ridiculously driven than almost all of them, which had earned him all those numbers and records and even a slightly questionable claim for the GOAT status. I mean, Cruyff used to purposely shoot towards the woodwork, not into the net, if the score was already convincing and there was no risk. Because the sound of the ball hitting the woodwork caused more reaction from the fans than a 4th or a 5th goal in a hopeless battering. Can you imagine Cristiano doing that?

But this is as much Cristiano's own doing as it is football's zeitgeist... football was never as focused on goals and individual stats as it is now. The disparity between the top teams and the rest had also never been as consistently big as it was during the era of Real's & Barça's dominance... Cristiano and Messi played an enormous part in that but they were surrounded by not just world-class, but by a plethora of all-time greats in most of the key positions (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves; Modrić, Kroos, Benzema, Marcelo... etc.). Pelé had the same luxury at the international level, so did Puskás (up until the 1956 revolution, so not for that long) and that's probably it. Dutch & West German teams of the 1970's had some historic talent to be fair but quite a few average (on an all-time scale) players in key positions as well. He had the luxury of playing for the two of the greatest managers of all-time at the time of the absolute peak of sports nutrition and medicine, prolonging his career for so much longer. Et cetera et cetera.

Sorry for the rant (and another, shorter rant incoming). I get triggered by the word "disrespect" since this is the word that is usually used in short (and mostly horribly pointless) comments on social media under the myriad of football-related content. You can't disrespect a player by putting him in the top-10 of the greatest footballers to ever play the game, even if it's in the 10th place (a fairly uncommon placing for Cristiano in this thread). He has too many shortcomings to be considered the absolute best — he's not the absolute best in his own generation and even Messi himself isn't a clear-cut number 1 in history (although by this point he's most people's preferred choice for the top spot and deservingly so). And there's been so many magical, mercurial, otherworldly talented players, that you can easily make an argument for a lot of them to be placed ahead of Cristiano — just like you can make a lot of arguments for Cristiano to be placed ahead of the likes of Cruyff and Di Stéfano. It's not disrespect, it's personal opinion and difference in how people evaluate footballer's greatness — do they focus more on their club or their international career, do they prefer a higher peak or superior longevity, what's more important — team honours or individual ones, how do you calculate the value of goals over different leagues and eras etc. How do you compare strikers, wingers, midfielders and centre backs after all (I'm not even going to talk about goalkeepers here!). There's no universal answer to those questions and some of those criteria can be quite unfavourable to Cristiano (while some can even back his claim to be the greatest footballer of all-time even ahead Messi, Pelé and Maradona).
 
Thing is, the knee injury sort off saves his legacy as counterintuitive as it may sound quite simply because his career likely would have gone downhill anyway due to typical Brazilian lifestyle.
That's a very good point, I often think about this as well. He was as bad if not worse than Maradona in that regard — spending most of the nights out, coming to training sessions hung over, not considering his diet etc.

Plus that knee injury seems somewhat... inevitable? That ungodly combination of speed and strength (he was a big guy even in his slimmer days) felt like a cheat code and it absolutely was, yet it had to put so much additional strain on his knees! I'm not a doctor but it feels like that was a ticking time bomb even if his ligaments were perfect from the beginning (which I don't think that they were). Those lighting fast guys — Gento, Blokhin, Giggs, Robben — are usually fairly slim. Bale was as well — and once he got noticeably bigger, his body began to deteriorate at an alarming rate.
 
Van Basten was better than Robben, I don't understand how anybody who saw both play could think otherwise

Gullit, too, though it's closer

That said, as an opponent Robben was petrifying
They're completely different players, but Robben was more effective over a longer period for our national team. Van Basten was obviously amazing, but the team Robben almost got to a world cup final in 2014 was fecking shit. We played Ron Vlaar, Jonathan de Guzman, Wijnaldum before he somehow became part of a great team, 12 year old Depay and Darrl Janmaat.
 
Messi has his own tier now. He is the only one of the bunch with absolutely everything. Elite numbers, elite dribbling, elite playmaking and passing, elite finishing and elite longevity.

No one else can compete with his superiority over every part of the attacking game. He is alone at the top.
But that's just not true? Pelé's the same. Stratospheric numbers in both goals and assists, elite dribbler, elite playmaker, elite finisher, had almost 2 decades of career at the very top (probably 14 seasons if we're ruthless and discard everything after the 1970 World Cup — but you have to adjust for the modern sports science longevity inflation). He won everything he had ever competed in, making other all-time great players of his era look... well, not ordinary, but certainly not quite at the same level in comparison. When France Football did the revaluation of past awards in 2016, trying to imagine how many awards non-European players would've won if they were eligible from the very beginning, they've estimated that Pelé would've won 7 (1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1963, 1964 и 1970).

In fact, his career is even more ideal:
  • his first major international breakthrough came at the World Cup where the 17 years old teenager scored a hat-trick in the semi-final and a brace in the final, winning the entire thing. Messi (and Cristiano) were criticized for the lack of their international success for a long while (sometimes too harshly). Messi did win the World Cup, putting to death any last questions of whenever he's fit for the top spot (not that anyone rational doubted that at that point but it helped with the narrative), but Pelé had the similar swan song in 1970... as a bonus to an already perfect career
  • he was actually a more all-rounded attacking threat than Messi — a much better header of the ball, superior with his weaker foot (not that Messi was bad) etc. Now I'm not saying that he was a better player (I think Messi's marginally better at his most outstanding abilities, be it dribbling or that trademark final ball towards the left flank, which evens it out), but Pelé was just as all-rounded an attacker as Messi was... if not slightly more so
  • you can add a way bigger arsenal of feints and tricks but I personally wouldn't — I feel like with Messi it's a stylistic preference and not in any way the lack of ability (feels sacrilegious to even type in those words next to his name)
If you're talking about purely the completeness of their attacking game, players like Puskás, Di Stéfano, Cruyff & Zico come extremely close to him (perhaps even beating Messi in terms of the all-roundedness of their skillset but not quite reaching his absolute peak level at, say, dribbling). Maradona's probably gets the short end of the stick with his peak being spent in the 1980's Serie A where defenders (and there were so many great ones) could get away with murder and most teams played extremely defensively... so while his 15-20 goals per season don't look that impressive on paper, they're worth their weight in gold, he was certainly an incredible goalscorer even if pure numbers seem a bit underwhelming compared to others.


P.S.

As a food for thought, here's an interesting stats that helps to even out the disparity of goal and assist values that comes from stylistic differences between leagues and historical eras as well as strengths of the individuals sides and highlights the importance of that player in particular to his own team. The key disclaimer is — no stat, however convenient, should be the decisive factor in your assessment of player's historical greatness, I'm just providing some interesting context. Eye test is still the king.

It certainly gives you an interesting perspective on the usual numbers. In this particular table the wonderful Trachta10 from the bigsoccer forum excludes penalties from notable players' most prolific 100 consecutive game periods. The entire formula is: (Player's Non-Penalty Goals+Assists Opta and Non-Opta)/(Team's Goals).

rJaB2US.png
 
Last edited:
Messi
Pele
Ronaldo
Maradona

After that you almost can’t go wrong with whatever order of Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Zidane, Di Stefano, Van Basten and Maldini.

Those who hold Ronaldo above Pele have a case, but it’s hard to convey dominant Pele was for over a decade. As was Ronaldo, but Pele had all the tools, had greater speed and strengthen, as well as greater passing and dribbling ability.
 
But that's just not true? Pelé's the same. Stratospheric numbers in both goals and assists, elite dribbler, elite playmaker, elite finisher, had almost 2 decades of career at the very top (probably 14 seasons if we're ruthless and discard everything after the 1970 World Cup — but you have to adjust for the modern sports science longevity inflation). He won everything he had ever competed in, making other all-time great players of his era look... well, not ordinary, but certainly not quite at the same level in comparison. When France Football did the revaluation of past awards in 2016, trying to imagine how many awards non-European players would've won if they were eligible from the very beginning, they've estimated that Pelé would've won 7 (1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1963, 1964 и 1970).

In fact, his career is even more ideal:
  • his first major international breakthrough came at the World Cup where the 17 years old teenager scored a hat-trick in the semi-final and a brace in the final, winning the entire thing. Messi (and Cristiano) were criticized for the lack of their international success for a long while (sometimes too harshly). Messi did win the World Cup, putting to death any last questions of whenever he's fit for the top spot (not that anyone rational doubted that at that point but it helped with the narrative), but Pelé had the similar swan song in 1970... as a bonus to an already perfect career
  • he was actually a more all-rounded attacking threat than Messi — a much better header of the ball, superior with his weaker foot (not that Messi was bad) etc. Now I'm not saying that he was a better player (I think Messi's marginally better at his most outstanding abilities, be it dribbling or that trademark final ball towards the left flank, which evens it out), but Pelé was just as all-rounded an attacker as Messi was... if not slightly more so
  • you can add a way bigger arsenal of feints and tricks but I personally wouldn't — I feel like with Messi it's a stylistic preference and not in any way the lack of ability (feels sacrilegious to even type in those words next to his name)
If you're talking about purely the completeness of their attacking game, players like Puskás, Di Stéfano, Cruyff & Zico come extremely close to him (perhaps even beating Messi in terms of the all-roundedness of their skillset but not quite reaching his absolute peak level at, say, dribbling). Maradona's probably gets the short end of the stick with his peak being spent in the 1980's Serie A where defenders (and there were so many great ones) could get away with murder and most teams played extremely defensively... so while his 15-20 goals per season don't look that impressive on paper, they're worth their weight in gold, he was certainly an incredible goalscorer even if pure numbers seem a bit underwhelming compared to others.
Lamine Yamal doing what he's doing has helped people to understand how insane it was for Pele to score six goals in the World Cup at age 17, including a hattrick in the semi and 2 in the final.

And it's not an era thing either. It just never happens with someone that young, old football or modern football.
 
Messi has his own tier now. He is the only one of the bunch with absolutely everything. Elite numbers, elite dribbling, elite playmaking and passing, elite finishing and elite longevity.

No one else can compete with his superiority over every part of the attacking game. He is alone at the top.

Pele literally has all of that as @harms eloquently put.
 
Messi
Pele
Ronaldo
Maradona

After that you almost can’t go wrong with whatever order of Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Zidane, Di Stefano, Van Basten and Maldini.

Those who hold Ronaldo above Pele have a case, but it’s hard to convey dominant Pele was for over a decade. As was Ronaldo, but Pele had all the tools, had greater speed and strengthen, as well as greater passing and dribbling ability.
Personally, I don't think they have a case at all unless they're going with the 'Pele played against plumbers' route which is just disingenuous and disrespectful.
 
It’s not ‘glazing’ it’s because Messi is better than Ronaldo, like admitting Henry was better than Van Nistelrooy back in the day. It’s obviously a contest hence why most people don’t have Ronaldo in their top 3, if it wasn’t then they would all have them top 2. Ronaldo is the example of the PR machine way more than Messi, it’s flattering for Ronaldo to even be compared with Messi like he has, only for PR to push them as equals when they weren’t tbh.

No. That's because some people value technicality ability the most whilst some people don't and value things like mental and physical strength more.

No one who see's Ronaldo so highly believes that he was more technically gifted than Messi - if that was the case then Zidane and Luis Ronaldo and even Ronaldinho would be better than C Ronaldo.

I watch Messi's videos both for Barcelona and in the Champions league and his goals are jaw dropping (much more in La Liga than the CL) and I always think.. hmm this guy is the best player ever to play the game.

But Messi simply didn't challenge himself like C Ronaldo did, he didn't test himself the hardest he could. He played in a very lopsided easy league for all his career. He went to PSG and arguably was just like Neymar; a player that many believed to not achieve his potential but of course Messi already had so was given a free pass.

I will always believe that Messi would have been one of the best ever PL players of all time - but do i think he would be the GOAT if he played his whole career in the PL?

Personally not for me. If I had to pick one player to play in the PL over the last 2 decades I would choose Ronaldo all day over Messi. Why do I pick the PL? Because its been the hardest league to play consistent hard 38 games than 6 games a season in La Liga. Playing a CL tournament over that is a significant advantage and is one of the main reasons people call PL the best league ever but constantly lose CL finals or dont qualify. Also Ronaldo has played with players like Scholes, Fletcher, Ji Sung Park, Anderson, Giggs whilst Messi played alot of his succesful career under Pep Guardiola and his management of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and the aftermath follow-through to Luis Enrique. Without that type of team Messi become more a statistical player than a player that was helping Barcelona reach their heights of before. That's when Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale, Modric and Kroos started taking over.

Ronaldo vs Messi is like someone picking the opposite sex for their partner. Some go for the better looking beautiful one, some go for the mentally strong one that can provide you support anywhere in the world and in any occasion.
 
Last edited:
No. That's because some people value technicality ability the most whilst some people don't and value things like mental and physical strength more.

No one who see's Ronaldo so highly believes that he was more technically gifted than Messi - if that was the case then Zidane and Luis Ronaldo and even Ronaldinho would be better than C Ronaldo.

I watch Messi's videos both for Barcelona and in the Champions league and his goals are jaw dropping (much more in La Liga than the CL) and I always think.. hmm this guy is the best player ever to play the game.

But Messi simply didn't challenge himself like C Ronaldo did, he didn't test himself the hardest he could. He played in a very lopsided easy league for all his career. He went to PSG and arguably was just like Neymar; a player that many believed to not achieve his potential but of course Messi already had so was given a free pass.

I will always believe that Messi would have been one of the best ever PL players of all time - but do i think he would be the GOAT if he played his whole career in the PL?

Personally not for me. If I had to pick one player to play in the PL over the last 2 decades I would choose Ronaldo all day over Messi. Why do I pick the PL? Because its been the hardest league to play consistent hard 38 games than 6 games a season in La Liga. Playing a CL tournament over that is a significant advantage and is one of the main reasons people call PL the best league ever but constantly lose CL finals or dont qualify. Also Ronaldo has played with players like Scholes, Fletcher, Ji Sung Park, Anderson, Giggs whilst Messi played alot of his succesful career under Pep Guardiola and his management of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and the aftermath follow-through to Luis Enrique. Without that type of team Messi become more a statistical player than a player that was helping Barcelona reach their heights of before. That's when Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale, Modric and Kroos started taking over.

Ronaldo vs Messi is like someone picking the opposite sex for their partner. Some go for the better looking beautiful one, some go for the mentally strong one that can provide you support anywhere in the world and in any occasion.
It's been a while since I've seen so much drivel in 1 post. Addressing the bits in bold:

The PL being the hardest league is sky-sports nonsense. The idea there's only 6 tough games a season in La Liga is also nonsense. Messi's numbers against Premier League sides in the CL is amazing either way.

The next argument you made might be the most hilarious one. You conveniently ignore that Ronaldo played under the tutelage of SAF during his transformative years and also leave out Jose and Ancelotti coaching Ronaldo at Real Madrid. I like how you decided to throw in Giggs and Scholes as some sort of inferior players that Ronaldo had to put up with. Even Park and Fletcher were good players.

Messi played 4 seasons under Pep. That's not even half of his career. He didn't have Enrique, Pep, Xavi nor Iniesta in his 2018-2019 season and that season dwarfs any season Ronaldo had on an individual level.

If La Liga was such an easy league, why did Messi outperform Ronaldo during their time at La Liga? Shouldn't Ronaldo have out-performed him since he came from the hardest league?
 
They're completely different players, but Robben was more effective over a longer period for our national team. Van Basten was obviously amazing, but the team Robben almost got to a world cup final in 2014 was fecking shit. We played Ron Vlaar, Jonathan de Guzman, Wijnaldum before he somehow became part of a great team, 12 year old Depay and Darrl Janmaat.
Come on, Marco delivered you your only international trophy.

Van Basten's legacy is undeniable, unfortunately he was retired before I started watching football but my dad always raved about him and says he was the best centre forward of all time and with Maradona the best footballer he's seen.

I didn't really appreciate what he was saying at the time as youtube and high speed broadband wasn't a thing back then, I only realised he was right after re watching his old games, the man was mercurial, playing against some of the toughest defenders often getting the shit kicked out of him. Whilst it was admirable (like Maradona) it unfortunately probably contributed to his early retirement.
 
It's been a while since I've seen so much drivel in 1 post. Addressing the bits in bold:

The PL being the hardest league is sky-sports nonsense. The idea there's only 6 tough games a season in La Liga is also nonsense. Messi's numbers against Premier League sides in the CL is amazing either way.

The next argument you made might be the most hilarious one. You conveniently ignore that Ronaldo played under the tutelage of SAF during his transformative years and also leave out Jose and Ancelotti coaching Ronaldo at Real Madrid. I like how you decided to throw in Giggs and Scholes as some sort of inferior players that Ronaldo had to put up with. Even Park and Fletcher were good players.

Messi played 4 seasons under Pep. That's not even half of his career. He didn't have Enrique, Pep, Xavi nor Iniesta in his 2018-2019 season and that season dwarfs any season Ronaldo had on an individual level.

If La Liga was such an easy league, why did Messi outperform Ronaldo during their time at La Liga? Shouldn't Ronaldo have out-performed him since he came from the hardest league?

Because Ronaldo had to adapt his game to meach the standards of the PL when he was growing up. Messi grew up adapting to the standards of La Liga.

If you think Bellingham playing for Manchester United at the age of 20 would play the same as Bellingham playing for real Madrid at the age of 20 then I don't even know where to start.

There's a reason why Ronaldo turned physical and started scoring headers and shit when his natural game was much more about dribbling and crossing when he started out as a kid. Ronaldo growing up at Barcelona would look a different player than Ronaldo growing up at Manchester. Messi growing up at Manchester United under SAF playing against Liverpool and Stoke every day of the week would look different to playing all your life under a sun in Barcelona.

Even Antony said it, the sun is very important to him and its very important to South Americans to feel at home and more relaxed whilst also having much less of a physical league on top of that.

Again, sorry to annoy you. You pick the more beautiful partner. I pick the partner who will follow me in every league, every country and will provide me support even if they are less beautiful.

PSG should have won a CL under Messi. Neymar is deemed a flop in france relative to the potential transfer and the teams expectations but Messi's stint is just forgotten like a bit of dust under the carpet.

Messi was a better La Liga player than Ronaldo, but there's no proof that Messi would have been a better PL player than Ronaldo. It's a complete guess. Him playing for Barcelona playing all their career in Spain and then performing just in the CL against a PL team once every season is not the same as playing against 19 PL teams twice a season.

Pedro was shit for Barcelona in comparison to all their legends but I remember seeing him at Chelsea and being shocked at how below average this guy was. He looked a tenth of the player he was at Barcelona. That's why I think that if Messi played in the PL he would be an absolute legend but he would not be the GOAT. I didn't see enough tests in his career and the one time I did, at PSG it was a bit disappointing.

Just as you can't convince me, I can't and won't convince you. So let's enjoy our own brains.
 
Again, sorry to annoy you. You pick the more beautiful partner. I pick the partner who will follow me in every league, every country and will provide me support even if they are less beautiful.
Just to clarify, it's going to be the other way round. You will follow them in every league, every country and provide support for them without getting any recognition (okay, maybe a Netflix show). And if you'll try to even jokingly say that someone is more beautiful than them, they'll divorce and possibly sue (siu?) you for defamation.
 
Come on, Marco delivered you your only international trophy.

Van Basten's legacy is undeniable, unfortunately he was retired before I started watching football but my dad always raved about him and says he was the best centre forward of all time and with Maradona the best footballer he's seen.

I didn't really appreciate what he was saying at the time as youtube and high speed broadband wasn't a thing back then, I only realised he was right after re watching his old games, the man was mercurial, playing against some of the toughest defenders often getting the shit kicked out of him. Whilst it was admirable (like Maradona) it unfortunately probably contributed to his early retirement.
He did, but without Kieft we would've been out at the group stages.

Van Basten was amazing, I just personally prefer Robben. Not saying that's objective. But the way Robben was a world class player for 15 years despite constant crippling injuries is just nuts to me.
 
He did, but without Kieft we would've been out at the group stages.

Van Basten was amazing, I just personally prefer Robben. Not saying that's objective. But the way Robben was a world class player for 15 years despite constant crippling injuries is just nuts to me.
Fair enough, Robben was a great player and has forced his way into the Netherlands all time X1. I disagree regarding his international career, from what I recall the 2014 team was so shite but really effective in defence and gambled through the knockouts via penalties. Attacking wise there wasn't much going on and that included Robben.
 
Pele, R9, Messi, CR7, Maradona, Neymar, Best,
Not sure Neymar belongs amongst those players but good to finally see Best on the list. He's definitely top 10 for me, perhaps 5-10 though.
 
Personally, I don't think they have a case at all unless they're going with the 'Pele played against plumbers' route which is just disingenuous and disrespectful.

Ronaldo did put up incredible numbers and for me at least he's no lower than third all time, but Pele surpasses Ronaldo in the end. The only serious debate is Messi v Pele.
 
Robben improved a lot and only really put it all together when he moved to Bayern, imo. The Chelsea/Real Madrid era one was very good (and great on his day), but also an overhyped player that had a habit of missing great chances and being relatively one-dimensional in important games.
 
Because Ronaldo had to adapt his game to meach the standards of the PL when he was growing up. Messi grew up adapting to the standards of La Liga.

If you think Bellingham playing for Manchester United at the age of 20 would play the same as Bellingham playing for real Madrid at the age of 20 then I don't even know where to start.

There's a reason why Ronaldo turned physical and started scoring headers and shit when his natural game was much more about dribbling and crossing when he started out as a kid. Ronaldo growing up at Barcelona would look a different player than Ronaldo growing up at Manchester. Messi growing up at Manchester United under SAF playing against Liverpool and Stoke every day of the week would look different to playing all your life under a sun in Barcelona.

Even Antony said it, the sun is very important to him and its very important to South Americans to feel at home and more relaxed whilst also having much less of a physical league on top of that.

Again, sorry to annoy you. You pick the more beautiful partner. I pick the partner who will follow me in every league, every country and will provide me support even if they are less beautiful.

PSG should have won a CL under Messi. Neymar is deemed a flop in france relative to the potential transfer and the teams expectations but Messi's stint is just forgotten like a bit of dust under the carpet.

Messi was a better La Liga player than Ronaldo, but there's no proof that Messi would have been a better PL player than Ronaldo. It's a complete guess. Him playing for Barcelona playing all their career in Spain and then performing just in the CL against a PL team once every season is not the same as playing against 19 PL teams twice a season.

Pedro was shit for Barcelona in comparison to all their legends but I remember seeing him at Chelsea and being shocked at how below average this guy was. He looked a tenth of the player he was at Barcelona. That's why I think that if Messi played in the PL he would be an absolute legend but he would not be the GOAT. I didn't see enough tests in his career and the one time I did, at PSG it was a bit disappointing.

Just as you can't convince me, I can't and won't convince you. So let's enjoy our own brains.

Is it fair to say that Messi’s record against PL clubs in the Champions League signify how good he’d have probably been in the PL? 33 G+A in 36 games. Eye test, he was also phenomenal.
 
Just to clarify, it's going to be the other way round. You will follow them in every league, every country and provide support for them without getting any recognition (okay, maybe a Netflix show). And if you'll try to even jokingly say that someone is more beautiful than them, they'll divorce and possibly sue (siu?) you for defamation.

:lol:

That's actually brilliantly put.
 
Finally a place where Zidane's place in the pantheon can be discussed without worrying about Mo Salah, haha.

Let's consider what you just said: Zidane does not belong in this company. Let's consider Zidane's achievements, team and individual:

1. World Cup winner

2. World Cup golden ball winner (for a different tournament, which means he had a major impact in TWO World Cups)

3. Euros winner

4. Euros best player (this is important- he was deemed the best player at the 2000 tournament, as with WC 2006)

5. Ballon D'Or winner

6. THREE TIME FIFA World Player of the Year

7. Champions League winner

8. Reached 3 Chanpions League finals with 2 different teams

8. League champion in multiple countries (top leagues)

9. Footballer of the year award in multiple countries

10. IFFHS Best playmaker award

There's a bunch more, but let's leave it there, for the sake of brevity. Now leaving aside styles of play, aesthetics etc., do you really believe that someone with this resume 'doesn't belong' in that company? Can you think of another player, similarly garlanded, who also doesn't belong? I'd love to hear examples of such success in both domestic and international, team and individual trophies.

You disagree and that’s okay. There’s some good points for your defence of him.

But in short, I personally think, Zidane lacked consistency throughout a season to be considered among the best 10 players of all time.
The original post I quoted and claimed Zidane was out of place was because all the others on the list were players who performed at an unbelievable level over a sustained period with much more consistency than Zidane.

In terms of who could have been in 10th spot instead of Zidane in that list, that fits that criteria could be… Iniesta. Arguably the second best player in the greatest club side of all time and arguably the best player in the greatest national side of all time.

Club…
Zidane - 3 league titles, 1 CL
Iniesta - 9 League titles, 4 CL

Internationally…
Zidane - 1 WC, 1 Euro’s
Iniesta - 1 WC, 2 Euro’s


Zidane was a magician and had crazy Clutch moments. But clearly Iniesta’s career was far greater than Zidane’s. As players, I’d say Iniesta was more productive over the course of a season. I think in every metric Iniesta eclipses Zidane. Just my opinion.
 
Is it fair to say that Messi’s record against PL clubs in the Champions League signify how good he’d have probably been in the PL? 33 G+A in 36 games. Eye test, he was also phenomenal.

He's genuinely making poor arguments.

I don't even get how someone could think Messi wouldn't be as dominant in the Premier League. We've seen him dominate the very best sides, but apparently he'd wouldn't thrive as much vs the cannon fodder in the league.
 
You disagree and that’s okay. There’s some good points for your defence of him.

But in short, I personally think, Zidane lacked consistency throughout a season to be considered among the best 10 players of all time.
The original post I quoted and claimed Zidane was out of place was because all the others on the list were players who performed at an unbelievable level over a sustained period with much more consistency than Zidane.

In terms of who could have been in 10th spot instead of Zidane in that list, that fits that criteria could be… Iniesta. Arguably the second best player in the greatest club side of all time and arguably the best player in the greatest national side of all time.

Club…
Zidane - 3 league titles, 1 CL
Iniesta - 9 League titles, 4 CL

Internationally…
Zidane - 1 WC, 1 Euro’s
Iniesta - 1 WC, 2 Euro’s


Zidane was a magician and had crazy Clutch moments. But clearly Iniesta’s career was far greater than Zidane’s. As players, I’d say Iniesta was more productive over the course of a season. I think in every metric Iniesta eclipses Zidane. Just my opinion.

You can prefer Iniesta over Zidane.

But Iniesta has no real argument over Xavi.
 
Because Ronaldo had to adapt his game to meach the standards of the PL when he was growing up. Messi grew up adapting to the standards of La Liga.

If you think Bellingham playing for Manchester United at the age of 20 would play the same as Bellingham playing for real Madrid at the age of 20 then I don't even know where to start.

There's a reason why Ronaldo turned physical and started scoring headers and shit when his natural game was much more about dribbling and crossing when he started out as a kid. Ronaldo growing up at Barcelona would look a different player than Ronaldo growing up at Manchester. Messi growing up at Manchester United under SAF playing against Liverpool and Stoke every day of the week would look different to playing all your life under a sun in Barcelona.

Even Antony said it, the sun is very important to him and its very important to South Americans to feel at home and more relaxed whilst also having much less of a physical league on top of that.

Again, sorry to annoy you. You pick the more beautiful partner. I pick the partner who will follow me in every league, every country and will provide me support even if they are less beautiful.

PSG should have won a CL under Messi. Neymar is deemed a flop in france relative to the potential transfer and the teams expectations but Messi's stint is just forgotten like a bit of dust under the carpet.

Messi was a better La Liga player than Ronaldo, but there's no proof that Messi would have been a better PL player than Ronaldo. It's a complete guess. Him playing for Barcelona playing all their career in Spain and then performing just in the CL against a PL team once every season is not the same as playing against 19 PL teams twice a season.

Pedro was shit for Barcelona in comparison to all their legends but I remember seeing him at Chelsea and being shocked at how below average this guy was. He looked a tenth of the player he was at Barcelona. That's why I think that if Messi played in the PL he would be an absolute legend but he would not be the GOAT. I didn't see enough tests in his career and the one time I did, at PSG it was a bit disappointing.

Just as you can't convince me, I can't and won't convince you. So let's enjoy our own brains.

Understand your point to a degree. We’ll never know.
But let’s not kid ourselves, Messi destroyed the likes of peak Rio and Terry in the CL. I’m sure he would have had Maynor Figueroa, Paul Scharner and Ryan Nelsen on toast week in, week out in England.