Top 10 greatest players of all time

Firstly, when I say Messi is better, I mean it. I dont support Barcelona, i am Man Utd through and through. If you look at my top 10 list, I have Cristiano at 5th but it baffles me whenever anyone says Cristiano is equal to or better than Messi because I have watched them both.
We've all watched them both. Obviously people see and/or appreciate different things when they watch football
Infact, during his early years when Cristiano was on the recieving end of alot of stick, i used to defend him on forums, amogsr fans and in banter with fans of rival teams insisting that he'd come good which he did. Majority who support Cristiano are those who support Man Utd, Real Madrid, Juventus, and the Portuguese national team. Also, like Beckham, Cristisno is a celebrity/brand beyond football far more than Messi. That would explain the cult like following and millions claiming he is greater. My own family are Cristiano fans only because they are all United fans and the arguments are generic.

OK
Secondly, R9 is also on my top 10 list rationale being the success with Brazil and 2 great seasons all of which occured within 5 years. My argument against putting him near the top is his lack of longevity; some put him as high as fourth which I believe is based on "what could have been", a very difficult prediction to make given his very bad lifestyle.
His lifestyle without the injuries wouldn't have prevented him from having at least a decade of high level performances, because he was so good. We've seem plenty of other players with bad lifestyles be good for a decent amount of time (Best, Maradona etc.). The issue was the injuries, not the lifestyle. He missed almost 2 years due to the knee injuries, and when he came back, he wasn't the same.
 
All this discussions about the absolute GOAT are often so fruitless to me. Sports as a whole has changed so much over the decades. Even Joe Schmoe playing for a second division club is probably better trained and nutrioned than many of the pros of say 20-30 years ago. The game has also changed a lot.

That's not just a footie thing, almost any sport.

I think it also explains why we seemed to have so many more superstar players in the past. There was a clear divide between those with additional innate ability, but maybe even more so with the drive to go another few steps beyond others when it comes to preparing themselves for games.
 
I can give you my personal assurance that Beckenbauer was idolized more back in the 70s than today -- at least in the US but I'm sure this was the case in Latin America as well. There's no way I can think of to prove this assertion but witnessed Beckenbauer's fame as a kid in the US and no other international soccer player has since come close to the kind of idolization -- neither Beckham nor Messi -- that Beckenbauer enjoyed here when he played for the New York Cosmos.

As for how Franz was regarded then compared to now in Germany I have no idea, but the trophies he won with Bayern and then with West Germany were as widely praised by the German public as was likely possible at the time. Not to derail the thread too much, but Beckenbauer has suffered a fall from grace to some degree late in life, although for reasons completely independent of his genius as a footballer.
I think you’ve missed what I was saying, or perhaps I didn’t convey it clearly. I’m saying Beckenbauer, playing in the modern era, would be even more idolised than in his own era, where he was already a global icon.
 
No chance. Look at his away record in the premier league against the traditional big 6… 6 goals in 8 seasons. He scored 67% of his arsenal goals at Highbury and went missing in finals for arsenal.
Also he didn’t play a minute in the 98 WC final and was basically a passenger in the Barca 09 CL team.
Henry was a great player but the best of the best, stand up in the biggest games, Henry had a tendency to shrink in them.

Xavi and Iniesta are a tier above Thierry because they were as consistent throughout a season as Thierry but also dictated finals almost by themselves at times as vital players in unbelievable teams.
I'm surprised by these stats but I'll take your word for it. He's still largely regarded as the greatest PL player of all time though, which automatically puts him high on ATG lists.

I do agree with you as far as the 98 WC and 2009 CL. He hadn't hit his prime yet and was past his best, respectively. He was nowhere near the main man.

For me Henry, Iniesta and Xavi are in the same tier. I believe at their peaks in the same team, Henry could be considered the team's best player, whereas he was second best by a mile for France between 98 and 2006.
 
i mean, if by 'diehard fanboys', you mean the half billion people that follow his every move, then OK. But it's not quite the tiny band of delusional stragglers that you suggest here
How can a player with half billion followers not fill even 20% of the stadiums on a regular basis? Big portion of them are bots on social media, many with almost no football knowledge, spending few minutes on X, youtube and Insta will make it clear..
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/cristiano-ronaldo-embarrassed-by-saudi-33599063

Also, many of his fans on social media (teenagers mostly) don't know and care about who Maradona, Cruyff, Pele, Beckenbauer etc. are, they think football was invented in 2000s and Ronaldo is always top-2. In any serious football forum that's aware of football history like this, he's rarely placed in top-3. On the other hand, go to X or insta and see if you can spot anyone mentioning Cruyff, Di Stefano or Beckenbauer. Many people here on redcafe will be treated like aliens the moment they mention these players as above Ronaldo on X and sometimes even ridiculed for suggesting Maradona/Pele is better than him, that's the current state of football social media.

Did all these guys definitely say this about Messi? I know Rooney did, but I don't recall it with the others
Not only them, many other ex-teammates of Ronaldo said that.

Modric: "I hope he (Messi) will win this World Cup, he is the best player in history and he deserves it."
https://www.givemesport.com/i-won-4...iano-ronaldo-but-heres-why-messi-is-the-goat/

Sergio Ramos ignores Cristiano Ronaldo: Messi is the best player football has produced
https://www.marca.com/en/football/psg/2023/02/04/63deb311ca474144038b4578.html

Berbatov: "Because he's the f---ing greatest. Ronaldo is brilliant, Messi more my kind of player. He sees the game so clearly. He can score, create, he's the complete player, the best ever probably."
https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...erbatov-picked-lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo

Scholes: "“Messi, but Ronaldo is brilliant. Ronaldo is sensational at what he does, with pace and power. He scores, he takes free-kicks. But as an all-round footballer, Messi – wow, his passing – has absolutely everything.”

https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...-legend-picked-lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo

He was the top scorer also in each of the three leagues and has over 100 goals for each club, which is very rare I mean Messi is clearly a better player IMO, but I can understand why people say the things they do about Ronaldo.
If goalscoring is that important to be a GOAT contender, then Gerd Muller should be over Ronaldo (and Maradona lower than both) as he "conquered (with goalscoring)" everything including Euros and WC other than club level stuff and he's well above Ronaldo in goalscoring. Ronaldo has like 5 league Golden Boots in 20 seasons or so in Europe, playing for the best/top-2 teams.

Many also don't see Ronaldo better than Messi, Pele or Puskas in goalscoring or at least on par. On the other hand, Messi, Pele have things that Ronaldo can't match like dribbling, playmaking skills.
 
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Rooney, Keane, Cantona, Law, Beckham, Vieira, Zanetti, Makelele, Gerrard, Brehme, Seedorf, Bergomi all a tier below... Stefan Effenberg?

:lol: Get out.
Yeah, you can pick oddball ones like that all day. That's why I rejigged it in the original thread off comments like this one :lol:
 
Yeah, you can pick oddball ones like that all day. That's why I rejigged it in the original thread off comments like this one :lol:
I understand it was over a decade ago, but it mostly needs tearing down and starting again.
 
How can a person with half billion followers not fill even 20% of the stadiums on a regular basis? Big portion of them are bots on social media, many with almost no football knowledge,

it would be pretty strange if bots did have football knowledge
spending few minutes on X, youtube and Insta will make it clear..
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/cristiano-ronaldo-embarrassed-by-saudi-33599063

Also, many of his fans on social media (teenagers mostly) don't know and care about who Maradona, Cruyff, Pele, Beckenbauer etc. are, they think football was invented in 2000s and Ronaldo is always top-2. In any serious football forum that's aware of football history like this, he's rarely placed in top-3. On the other hand, go to X or insta and see if you can spot anyone mentioning Cruyff, Di Stefano or Beckenbauer. Many people here on redcafe will be treated like aliens the moment they mention these players as above Ronaldo on X and sometimes even ridiculed for suggesting Maradona/Pele is better than him, that's the current state of football social media.

Well that's the way it goes. There was an Internet poll back in the day to determine the player of the century, which Maradona won over Pele (Pele was the FIFA choice). Maradona won because a lot of younger people voted on the net, who had not seen Pele play
Not only them, many other ex-teammates of Ronaldo said that.

Modric: "I hope he (Messi) will win this World Cup, he is the best player in history and he deserves it."
https://www.givemesport.com/i-won-4...iano-ronaldo-but-heres-why-messi-is-the-goat/

Sergio Ramos ignores Cristiano Ronaldo: Messi is the best player football has produced
https://www.marca.com/en/football/psg/2023/02/04/63deb311ca474144038b4578.html

Berbatov: "Because he's the f---ing greatest. Ronaldo is brilliant, Messi more my kind of player. He sees the game so clearly. He can score, create, he's the complete player, the best ever probably."
https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...erbatov-picked-lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo

Scholes: "“Messi, but Ronaldo is brilliant. Ronaldo is sensational at what he does, with pace and power. He scores, he takes free-kicks. But as an all-round footballer, Messi – wow, his passing – has absolutely everything.”

https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...-legend-picked-lionel-messi-cristiano-ronaldo

I don't recall any of Messi's main teammates saying Ronaldo was better, but there are managers and players who choose Ronaldo as number one. Certainly more choose Messi, but it's more split than you are making out.
If goalscoring is that important to be a GOAT contender, then Gerd Muller should be over Ronaldo (and Maradona lower than both) as he "conquered (with goalscoring)" everything including Euros and WC other than club level stuff and he's well above Ronaldo in goalscoring. Ronaldo has like 5 league Golden Boots in 20 seasons or so in Europe, playing for the best/top-2 teams.

I don't think you can say Muller is 'way above' Ronaldo in goalscoring. Certainly his ratio in big international tournaments is much better. But overall, it is close. I'd say he's a better goalscorer but Ronaldo is a better all round player.
Many also don't see Ronaldo better than Messi, Pele or Puskas in goalscoring or at least on par. On the other hand, Messi, Pele have things that Ronaldo can't match like dribbling, playmaking skills.
Probably true, but Ronaldo has managed to PR himself to the top of the all time goalscoring charts. However, when I pointed this out before re Ronaldo v Pele in goalscoring, no one was interested. That's the way it goes.
 
Don’t turn this into a Messi and Ronaldo debate please.
 
1. Messi
2. Pele
3. Maradona
4. Cruyff
5. Beckenbaeur
6. Di Stefano
7. Matthaus
8. Paolo Maldini
9. C. Ronaldo
10. Puskas
 
Messi is the most technical and greatest player ever.

However, I believe that C Ronaldo was the most influential player on the sport post Pele.

C Ronaldo has really built that athleticism, strength, mentality, physicality, no nonsense, high ego, high IQ, high output, non stop work force type of standard that I've not seen before & I'm not surprised alot of younger players try to be the next C Ronaldo whilst calling him their idol.

He is like a personal trainer to modern day footballers whilst Messi is more like an angel you can't talk to but look at with awe.
 
Messi is the most technical and greatest player ever.

However, I believe that C Ronaldo was the most influential player on the sport post Pele.

C Ronaldo has really built that athleticism, strength, mentality, physicality, no nonsense, high ego, high IQ, high output, non stop work force type of standard that I've not seen before & I'm not surprised alot of younger players try to be the next C Ronaldo whilst calling him their idol.

He is like a personal trainer to modern day footballers whilst Messi is more like an angel you can't talk to but look at with awe.
The most influential is Johan Cruyff, and it’s not particularly close. Remove him from the timeline and the most things change as well as the football we watch today.
 
The most influential is Johan Cruyff, and it’s not particularly close. Remove him from the timeline and the most things change as well as the football we watch today.
I didn't watch Cruyff

Was he influential to the sport through his gameplay on the pitch or was it more his coaching and managerial ideas?

Just asking because Guardiola for example wasn't that influential as a player but is regarded as a tactical great.

Cruyff is regarded as one of the best players of all time but if he didn't follow that in to management then would he be as influential to the sport? If so why? I'm asking as I genuinely don't know.
 
I understand it was over a decade ago, but it mostly needs tearing down and starting again.
The entire notion of "Very Good" was weird. Denis Law was "very good", feck off. A scouser would say the same re Gerrard or Mo Salah.

My take was GOAT was narrower and more akin to what most have set as Tier 1 and 2 here. I.e. includes ADS, Cruyff and Beckenbauer given their influence on the sport.

God had to have a fair representation of GK, Def, Mid and not just be a second tier of #10s. I know Schmeichel looks a bit random on that first row but you really should have 3-5 per function. Placed in order from forwards to goalies it makes more sense.

Demi-god must have positional GOATs if not represented earlier, e.g. fullbacks, DMs.

Then great to me is anyone who didn't make it to the above but is a great for big club or country, so you could have Denis Law next to Davor Suker or Diego Forlán and there would be nothing wrong with that because you are not really saying they were at the same level. All you are doing is getting rid of the absurd notion of "Very Good" for players that in certain contexts can only be described as Great.
 
I didn't watch Cruyff

Was he influential to the sport through his gameplay on the pitch or was it more his coaching and managerial ideas?

Just asking because Guardiola for example wasn't that influential as a player but is regarded as a tactical great.

Cruyff is regarded as one of the best players of all time but if he didn't follow that in to management then would he be as influential to the sport? If so why? I'm asking as I genuinely don't know.
It’s too much for me to type up his influence on the game as both a player and coach right now. Perhaps this vid:



And the Cruyff section of this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-is-the-greatest-ever-decade-for-players-and-teams.444205/

May help.
 
Messi and C.Ronaldo are legends.

But we mustn't forget the idea of being a prisoner of the moment. They are the big stars of the last 15 years, with an extensive presence on social media, and are part of the emotional memory of many. Football has a long list of skilful players in its hundred-year history.

Pelé provided 6 assists at the 1970 World Cup in Mexico. It was the highest number of assists in a World Cup since the metric began to be counted in 1966 by Sofascore.

Football may be more difficult today, with smaller spaces, but the rules are the same. It's not like basketball, where the three-point line was introduced in the 80s and changed the whole dynamic of the sport. Football has not undergone this transformation.

Messi, with the 2022 World Cup, has entered the pantheon of the top 5. No doubt.

But if we compare him to Pelé

They're both great playmakers, as Pelé's record for assists shows.

Messi has more Ballon d'Ors (in Pelé's time, non-Europeans didn't compete for the award), was a better dribbler than Pelé, played in Europe (again, in Pelé's time there was no disparity between the European and South American leagues) and the argument that football today is more difficult. Fair enough.

On the other hand, Pelé has a higher goal plus assist average than Messi, a more versatile finisher (head, left foot, righ foot), a better defender (acording to sofascore) and won more World Cups.

Everyone has their own verdict. But I lean towards Pelé.
 
No right or wrongs
For me Henry, Iniesta and Xavi are in the same tier. I believe at their peaks in the same team, Henry could be considered the team's best player, whereas he was second best by a mile for France between 98 and 2006.

Not even close.

Whereas Xavi was a crucial cog in two of the all-time greats, Henry was never so pertinent. The likes of Thuram and Djorkaeff (and a few others) were more important to the great French sides than he was, though he played a part.

The reason Henry's name constantly appears in 'greatest ever' lists is his ubiquitous media presence. The legacy of 'va va voom'.

Good player, sure, but not in the greatest ever conversation.
 
His lifestyle without the injuries wouldn't have prevented him from having at least a decade of high level performances, because he was so good. We've seem plenty of other players with bad lifestyles be good for a decent amount of time (Best, Maradona etc.). The issue was the injuries, not the lifestyle. He missed almost 2 years due to the knee injuries, and when he came back, he wasn't the same.
After he came back from his injury he was still good in his first 1 to 2 seasons (although not at his 1996-1998 level) but his performances rapidly went down therafter. Just read what Capello said. Ronaldinho is the prime example of what lifestyle can do; R9 was just as bad if not worse.
No right or wrongs


Not even close.

Whereas Xavi was a crucial cog in two of the all-time greats, Henry was never so pertinent. The likes of Thuram and Djorkaeff (and a few others) were more important to the great French sides than he was, though he played a part.

The reason Henry's name constantly appears in 'greatest ever' lists is his ubiquitous media presence. The legacy of 'va va voom'.

Good player, sure, but not in the greatest ever conversation.
If you consider the premier league in isolation, he is the best ever premier league player imo. No premier league footballer scared me as much during our pomp. But he did not do enough in the ucl and was clearly overshadowed by Zidane in the French national team.
 
If you consider the premier league in isolation, he is the best ever premier league player imo. No premier league footballer scared me as much during our pomp. But he did not do enough in the ucl and was clearly overshadowed by Zidane in the French national team.

Henry was certainly a good player, but the best EPL (forward) ever?

Wouldn't have him beyond Ronaldo.
 
No right or wrongs


Not even close.

Whereas Xavi was a crucial cog in two of the all-time greats, Henry was never so pertinent. The likes of Thuram and Djorkaeff (and a few others) were more important to the great French sides than he was, though he played a part.

The reason Henry's name constantly appears in 'greatest ever' lists is his ubiquitous media presence. The legacy of 'va va voom'.

Good player, sure, but not in the greatest ever conversation.
Agree with the point that Xavi is in a different tier.

Djorkaeff would have been more important up to 1998 when Henry was still a spotty kid playing off the wing. But he never hit the heights that Henry did at Euro 2000, which as a team has a case for being the greatest ever French side.
 
After he came back from his injury he was still good in his first 1 to 2 seasons (although not at his 1996-1998 level) but his performances rapidly went down therafter. Just read what Capello said. Ronaldinho is the prime example of what lifestyle can do; R9 was just as bad if not worse.

If you consider the premier league in isolation, he is the best ever premier league player imo. No premier league footballer scared me as much during our pomp. But he did not do enough in the ucl and was clearly overshadowed by Zidane in the French national team.
No, he was greatly diminished right from when he came back. He was never the same again. It's a testament to him that he was able to do so well at another World Cup and have a good period at Madrid, because all the explosiveness that he had was gone.
 
Henry was certainly a good player, but the best EPL (forward) ever?

Wouldn't have him beyond Ronaldo.
Ronaldo was only really good for 2 or 3 seasons, so in regard to the EPL specifically, you have to put Henry above him. When Ronaldo started in the Prem, he was very raw, and he was mocked for overdoing stopovers and then falling over. He improved rapidly, and his 2007-8 season is rightly remembered. But the truth is, he gave his best years to Real Madrid.
 
I can give you my personal assurance that Beckenbauer was idolized more back in the 70s than today -- at least in the US but I'm sure this was the case in Latin America as well. There's no way I can think of to prove this assertion but witnessed Beckenbauer's fame as a kid in the US and no other international soccer player has since come close to the kind of idolization -- neither Beckham nor Messi -- that Beckenbauer enjoyed here when he played for the New York Cosmos.

As for how Franz was regarded then compared to now in Germany I have no idea, but the trophies he won with Bayern and then with West Germany were as widely praised by the German public as was likely possible at the time. Not to derail the thread too much, but Beckenbauer has suffered a fall from grace to some degree late in life, although for reasons completely independent of his genius as a footballer.

I'd say the public opinion on him as a footballer hasn't really swayed. He's still named in the same breath as Pelé, Maradona, Messi and Cruyff overhere most of the time when pundits and the media refer to the greatest the sport has seen. But before the corruption scandals, Germany perceived him differently as a person. He used to be untouchable and a national treasure who couldn't do anything wrong and if he did, people forgave him easily. I wouldn't say the public turned on him because you didn't really hear nasty stuff but he lost the image as Germany's "Lichtgestalt" and pretty much vanished from public life completely. Didn't have to deal with hate or disrespect, rather a withdrawal of admiration. I'd say the perception of him changed again since his death with many feeling sorry for that. Some pundits lividly criticized how Germany deals with our icons and compared his case with the love for Maradona in Argentina, e. g., despite all his scandals.
 
Well that's the way it goes. There was an Internet poll back in the day to determine the player of the century, which Maradona won over Pele (Pele was the FIFA choice). Maradona won because a lot of younger people voted on the net, who had not seen Pele play
I agree about the biased nature of polls, the thing is most people know or care about internet polls especially among casuals. Pele and Maradona for most are solid top-3 along with Messi for most that knows football history as in this thread. Similar to basketball, if you leave it to teenagers on X, they'd probably choose Lebron as the undisputed GOAT each time. Then, there're the views by legends, ex & current players, Jordan leads every single time by a margin, and it's not even close. Messi is the only player from the current generation that comfortably makes it to the Tier 1 next to Pele & Maradona (many times as no.1) with a strong consensus as in this thread.

I don't recall any of Messi's main teammates saying Ronaldo was better, but there are managers and players who choose Ronaldo as number one. Certainly more choose Messi, but it's more split than you are making out.
I think anyone who is interested in this kind of stuff would know Messi is chosen "way way more" than Ronaldo, there's no comparison really, I mean you have legends like Sergio Ramos, Modric, Rooney, Scholes and many other former teammates of Ronaldo choosing Messi. This is a United forum and even here most don't put him in top-3 whereas Messi is many times no.1 or at worst in tier 1 with Pele/Maradona in almost all posters' ranking list.

There was a survey among 270 Bundesliga players back in 2020 asking the best player. Like 54% voted for Messi and 12% for Ronaldo and 10% for Lewandowski. There's no debate really among players.

https://www.givemesport.com/1584332...ote-lionel-messi-as-best-player-in-the-world/

That survey was in 2020 when Messi did not have a legendary WC, 2 Copas and a Finalissima and he was seen as an international failure because he didn't win a cup with Argentina. Ronaldo on the other hand has been on a free fall since then with WC/Euro disasters, United drama, lack of trophies/major individual awards for a long time. So, I can only imagine that the gap widened even more as this thread clearly shows.
 
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I can give you my personal assurance that Beckenbauer was idolized more back in the 70s than today -- at least in the US but I'm sure this was the case in Latin America as well. There's no way I can think of to prove this assertion but witnessed Beckenbauer's fame as a kid in the US and no other international soccer player has since come close to the kind of idolization -- neither Beckham nor Messi -- that Beckenbauer enjoyed here when he played for the New York Cosmos.

As for how Franz was regarded then compared to now in Germany I have no idea, but the trophies he won with Bayern and then with West Germany were as widely praised by the German public as was likely possible at the time. Not to derail the thread too much, but Beckenbauer has suffered a fall from grace to some degree late in life, although for reasons completely independent of his genius as a footballer.
When I was growing up, he was the one that was always talked about from those Bayern and West Germany teams, not Muller (as much - obviously he was still recognised as a great player). And then when we became more stats obsessed in the 21st century, people focused on Muller more.
 
It's all about opinions, but these 5 players need to be in everyone's top 10 in whatever order.

Maradona
Messi
Ronaldo
Pele
Cruyff

These players were not just great footballers, but they were icons of the game in their own right. Pele dominated the 60s, Cruff the 70s, Maradona the 80s and Messi and Ronaldo 2005 +
 
I'd say the public opinion on him as a footballer hasn't really swayed. He's still named in the same breath as Pelé, Maradona, Messi and Cruyff overhere most of the time when pundits and the media refer to the greatest the sport has seen. But before the corruption scandals, Germany perceived him differently as a person. He used to be untouchable and a national treasure who couldn't do anything wrong and if he did, people forgave him easily. I wouldn't say the public turned on him because you didn't really hear nasty stuff but he lost the image as Germany's "Lichtgestalt" and pretty much vanished from public life completely. Didn't have to deal with hate or disrespect, rather a withdrawal of admiration. I'd say the perception of him changed again since his death with many feeling sorry for that. Some pundits lividly criticized how Germany deals with our icons and compared his case with the love for Maradona in Argentina, e. g., despite all his scandals.

Franz did take a reputational hit late in life due to the corruption scandals, but his standing as a footballer is beyond dispute. The point I was trying to make to the other poster is that his standing as a footballer late in his life is no greater than it was during his playing days. As a kid growing up in a Mexican neighborhood in Los Angeles in the early 70s it was Beckenbauer, moreso than even Cruyff, whom the Mexicans in LA and throughout Latin America idolized as a peer of Pele. Different kinds of footballers, of course, but Beckenbauer's ability to do it all -- defending, passing, dribbling and scoring -- is unsurpassed to this day.
 
I agree about the biased nature of polls, the thing is most people know or care about internet polls especially among casuals. Pele and Maradona for most are solid top-3 along with Messi for most that knows football history as in this thread. Similar to basketball, if you leave it to teenagers on X, they'd probably choose Lebron as the undisputed GOAT each time. Then, there're the views by legends, ex & current players, Jordan leads every single time by a margin, and it's not even close. Messi is the only player from the current generation that comfortably makes it to the Tier 1 next to Pele & Maradona (many times as no.1) with a strong consensus as in this thread.


I think anyone who is interested in this kind of stuff would know Messi is chosen "way way more" than Ronaldo, there's no comparison really, I mean you have legends like Sergio Ramos, Modric, Rooney, Scholes and many other former teammates of Ronaldo choosing Messi. This is a United forum and even here most don't put him in top-3 whereas Messi is many times no.1 or at worst in tier 1 with Pele/Maradona in almost all posters' ranking list.

There was a survey among 270 Bundesliga players back in 2020 asking the best player. Like 54% voted for Messi and 12% for Ronaldo and 10% for Lewandowski. There's no debate really among players.

https://www.givemesport.com/1584332...ote-lionel-messi-as-best-player-in-the-world/

That survey was in 2020 when Messi did not have a legendary WC, 2 Copas and a Finalissima and he was seen as an international failure because he didn't win a cup with Argentina. Ronaldo on the other hand has been on a free fall since then with WC/Euro disasters, United drama, lack of trophies/major individual awards for a long time. So, I can only imagine that the gap widened even more as this thread clearly shows.
I mean, there's no point in continuing. I don't want to turn it into a Messi v Ronaldo thread, because that's boring, and I favour Messi anyway. I just think it's strange when people can't look at it from the other point of view.
 
Franz did take a reputational hit late in life due to the corruption scandals, but his standing as a footballer is beyond dispute. The point I was trying to make to the other poster is that his standing as a footballer late in his life is no greater than it was during his playing days. As a kid growing up in a Mexican neighborhood in Los Angeles in the early 70s it was Beckenbauer, moreso than even Cruyff, whom the Mexicans in LA and throughout Latin America idolized as a peer of Pele. Different kinds of footballers, of course, but Beckenbauer's ability to do it all -- defending, passing, dribbling and scoring -- is unsurpassed to this day.

Yes, on that everybody in Germany agrees as well :) I was just trying to shed some light on the perception of him over here. But very interesting to hear how people view(ed) him in Mexico. Always thought he was reviewed mpre positively in Germany than elseqhere in the world
 
For me, that hardly can be take as a written in stone thing, there is no such thing as a solely best player ever. And I hate the type of assertions (demeriting or glorifying in an obtuse way) a certain player that discussions like the GOAT thing usually bring, like many I'm already reading here.

There is a liitle group of players, from every period of the game (let's say a decade) that maybe deserve that Best of the Best from such period status.
PD: as a side note, only because there are some players that we fans many times feel "clearly" in another level of talent, because I'm not that fond of trying to find huge gaps between a Di Maria, Ribery, Salah, etc..on any role, or let's say Kross, Modric, Rodri, Rikjaard, Redondo, Xavi, etc.
I can find some of these last type of names Phenoms in their roles, absolute legends, cracks, many even forgotten and deserving the same praise that usually players that won a lot in such roles (I wish people remember a lot more an Overath for instance).
Yet the Top of the Crop are a combination of let's say Genius talent (and traits in the form of power, atheltism, pace combine with extraordinary skills) and not few times with quite a carreer to boost too.

For me, I know I'm a bit alone in this one, I'll never rate a defender, defensive mid, organizative one at the same level of a rarity someone like Pele is.
This on the other hand doesn't mean that because what Pastore can do with a ball it's more of what Baresi can, I'll say that Pastore was bigger for the history of the game, yet when we go up the ladder, the Pastores are replaced with players in the offensive roles that trully are freaks, more rare human specimens than any Figueroa, Passarella, Baresi and such (as freaky as for their roles many of those legendary defenders were).

In this line, certainly Maldini and Baresi have bigger, better and more easily rated as among the best of the best ever in their roles, but Baggio for me would always closer to that level people tend to grant to GOAT fellas, he is better than them and had enough of a carreer.
The only exception I at least consider, is Franz, more due to his array of roles and level of skills for those and his importance for a major powerhouse, but still not entirely my Cup of tea to have him in that trully upper echelon in terms of talent, sounds sacriledge, I know, but it goes with what I've said above.

Finally like every player, the so call GOATS, face diff circumstances that will help or create problems to have a better carreer in terms of titles, stats, etc. From injuries, to being in a club in a bad period, to just a coach not that fond of them. So I'm not that incline to dismiss anyone that thinks that Maradona was the best, enough arguments for me, yet, at the same time I'll be more prone to say: "from the best ones I've seen, I rate, I LIKE HIM MORE". That's diff from sthg that will never be as tangible as we sometimes would like it to be. No matter if it's Messi, Pele, Di Stefano, Puskas, etc.. with tons of titles and stats in their back.
In any case on any of these discussions, with parameters like some of the ones I've preffer, it's just a prefference, we sometimes put too much effort in trying to always find the One and only, when there is no real need.
 
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I didn't watch Cruyff

Was he influential to the sport through his gameplay on the pitch or was it more his coaching and managerial ideas?

Just asking because Guardiola for example wasn't that influential as a player but is regarded as a tactical great.

Cruyff is regarded as one of the best players of all time but if he didn't follow that in to management then would he be as influential to the sport? If so why? I'm asking as I genuinely don't know.
If I or anyone else—were to write about the influence he’s had on football, it would likely turn into an essay of considerable length. I would say both—his impact as a player and as a coach have been immense.

His influence on the pitch often extended far beyond goals or assists. Yes, he scored a significant number of goals—remarkably, without relying heavily on penalties or set-pieces—and his assist numbers were equally impressive. But his true impact came from the way he functioned as a kind of conductor for the entire team. Beckenbauer may have played a different position than Cruyff, and while Beckenbauer’s statistics were extraordinary for a defender, the two share a similar quality: their influence on the game transcended data and statistics.

At times, highlight reels simply cannot capture the brilliance of players like them. To truly understand their greatness, one must watch the full 90 minutes—the complete match—where their decision-making, tempo control, and spatial command become evident in real time.

But if you don’t have the time to watch full matches, the clip shared by @Fortitude is one of the best compilations of Cruyff on YouTube. It covers every stage of his career—from his early days as a lightning-quick, dribble-obsessed wing forward whose decision-making wasn’t yet at its peak, to his prime in the 1970s as arguably the best player in the world, orchestrating everything as the team’s conductor, then on to Barcelona, America, and finally his return to Ajax and even Feyenoord last season. This video also includes his tenure with Netherlands.

What makes this video particularly special is that it doesn’t just focus on goals, shots, or assists—it also showcases moments when he dropped deep to link play, delivered incisive passes, carried the ball out from deep positions, and connected every phase of the game. Watching that clip alone will already give you a fair sense of how Cruyff played—and why his presence was so much more than just numbers.
 
Yes, on that everybody in Germany agrees as well :) I was just trying to shed some light on the perception of him over here. But very interesting to hear how people view(ed) him in Mexico. Always thought he was reviewed mpre positively in Germany than elseqhere in the world

It's hard to explain, but the Mexican people love Germans. Maybe it's because there's a level of animus toward the other great nations of North America and Europe. Americans...well, it's complicated. The Spanish...also complicated. The English, not a chance. The French, not really. Italians are ok, but Mexicans love Germans as well as the Scots. Not sure about the Irish. After the Robben dive when Marquez dared go near him in the 2014 World Cup, the Dutch are in the dog house with the Mexicans.

My son-in-law is a German citizen, but although he strangely has no interest in fussball he is very much aware of Beckenbauer's brilliance.