Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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Cina said:
Well that's the thing though, it means we have to start using three man midfields. The whole point of having a midfield two is having two players who are both so good at their respective roles (Scholes and Carrick in 06/07) in it that you don't need an extra body in there to compensate. Cleverley shouldn't, for me, be a Man Utd first team midfielder because whilst he does most things pretty well, he doesn't excel at anything.
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I think the way the game is going, a 3 man midfield is essential. Weather it be a striker dropping deep or an attacking midfielder. There is value to having Cleverley especially against good opposition.

What we do lack is a world class midfielder who can not only carry the ball forward but create things from the middle. Cleverley isn't the man for this job. But that doesn't mean he isn't a good player to have around the squad.
 
Not helped by the complete lack of creativity ahead of him but there are things that he needs to improve on. I don't think he does enough to make himself available for a pass when we have it in defence and when we do he's too reluctant to pass it forward and so we end up stuck. In fairness both rio and vidic have been worryingly poor with their passing out for a while now but it's somewhere he can help out more. Particularly so with the opposition completely concentrating on carrick now.

I thought he looked to try a few more adventurous balls but he still needs to do more of it and as I said above he needs to be willing to face forwards an do something. His natural instruct seems to be to turn away.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
I think the way the game is going, a 3 man midfield is essential. Weather it be a striker dropping deep or an attacking midfielder. There is value to having Cleverley especially against good opposition.

What we do lack is a world class midfielder who can not only carry the ball forward but create things from the middle. Cleverley isn't the man for this job. But that doesn't mean he isn't a good player to have around the squad.
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Yeah he's fine for the squad, just not good enough to be a first choice midfielder. I think Revan is on to something about him and Welbeck getting special treatment on here because they're academy players, if we had signed Cleverley from another club then I think reactions to the performances he's had would be very different.
 
Erictheking7 said:
Cleverley is not a bad player but right now he wouldn't get into any of the other top clubs midfield as a first choice and isn't suited to playing in a midfield 2
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He wouldn't be even near the bench of teams like Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Dormund or Juve.
 
Cina said:
I'm not saying it's purely down to our midfield though, obviously our wingers have been shit which doesn't help, but I've said for years that we lack options when our wingers aren't playing well and now that's exactly what is happening all at once for us, so forgive me for actually wanting a midfield capable of creating something themselves.

I'm also not using Cleverley as a scapegoat, I've been saying this about him for a long time now.
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Even the best Creative Midfielders will struggle if there is no movement up top Cina. It's easy to say "sign this player", it's not that simple. The players have to make the runs to free up space for the CM's to be able to make the passes.

It's one area I think Cleverley does need to improve though, his positioning can at times be a bit crap. He's fine when the ball is in midfield, but he struggles to open himself up for the pass when the balls with the CB's.
 
I've said this before.

He doesn't have a killer pass. Something we need in our midfield considering how many teams park the bus against us.
 
RedSky At Night said:
Even the best Creative Midfielders will struggle if there is no movement up top Cina. It's easy to say "sign this player", it's not that simple. The players have to make the runs to free up space for the CM's to be able to make the passes.

It's one area I think Cleverley does need to improve though, his positioning can at times be a bit crap. He's fine when the ball is in midfield, but he struggles to open himself up for the pass when the balls with the CB's.
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What are you trying to argue? Cleverley isn't a creative player, at all, do you disagree? I'm not buying this stuff with the movement by the way, Hernandez had no problem threading a lovely pass through to RvP.
 
Cina said:
Yeah he's fine for the squad, just not good enough to be a first choice midfielder. I think Revan is on to something about him and Welbeck getting special treatment on here because they're academy players, if we had signed Cleverley from another club then I think reactions to the performances he's had would be very different.
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That's the thing, if he wasn't an academy player there is noway we'd have signed him. I can't Beas positive another sin this thread he just isn't good enough.
 
Cina said:
I'm not buying this stuff with the movement by the way, Hernandez had no problem threading a lovely pass through to RvP.
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I don't think Cleverley is creative but I do think he has the speed of thought and ability to find a player making a good run off the ball. RVP made that pass for Hernandez with his good run.
 
Cheesy said:
The fact that Liverpool didn't dominate us in the middle is exactly the point. He and Carrick had plenty of the ball, but they simply didn't do anything with it when they had it. Countinho looked much more dangerous for Liverpool in the first half than either of our centre mids did at any point today.
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Problem is indeed very poor wings, midfield does a decent job but not a great one. The defensive organisation is ok, we don't get dominated on the midfield. But Cleverly isn't bringing in anything creatively from the midfield and Carrick has to cover too much for Cleverly to be involved alot upfront aswell.

I really hope Moyes brings in one or two midfielders. We should be playing Carrick and another partner for him. Somebody who can sort out alot of work on the midfield and can relieve Carrick of some of his defensive duties, so he can focus more on attacking.

For the wings, clearly Young and Giggs should not start games. Both are just not good enough anymore. Losing so many balls, playing such slow football, they are no threat anymore upfront. I'd prefer Welbeck playing games on the wing, and also Nani being played more there. He showed more today then Giggs and Young in an entire game, it is clear he isn't matchfit yet, but with some games he should get back some of his form, and he should always start infront of Young and Giggs. I'd also prefer if Zaha or Januzaj would be given more chances on the wings. They bring something new and fresh and they can hardly do worse than Young or Giggs.

Behind Van persie as AM only Rooney or Kagawa should be playing. What the feck is up with Kagawa, why hasn't Moyes given him any minutes yet ? He deserves it more than Young and Giggs, and he must be growing very frustrated with not getting games.

I'd had rather seen this team today:

------------DDG-----------
Jones---Rio-----Vidic---Evra
------Carrick---Cleverly-----
Zaha------Kagawa-----Welbeck
------------RVP---------------
 
Cina said:
What are you trying to argue? Cleverley isn't a creative player, at all, do you disagree? I'm not buying this stuff with the movement by the way, Hernandez had no problem threading a lovely pass through to RvP.
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I think Cleverley can be creative (as seen at the start of last season) but he's been told to sit in midfield which imo hampers his style. You're suggesting our play will improve if we sign a creative player to play alongside Carrick. I don't think it will because the issue is with the teams movement. We'll improve no doubt, but it's not a magic wand fix which the majority of the forum seems to think.

Fellaini for example will not solve this issue at all. But to throw shit at Cleverley and scapegoat him (not saying you are, but there are plenty who have been) is a bit laughable. It's exactly what happened when Fletcher broke through into the squad.

FYI, Hernandez is one of our best players when it comes to movement, second to Rooney imo. So it's no surprise we looked better with him in the team.
 
Cleverley wasn't sat in midfield though. He kept running up in the wide channels, whenever he made a pass. That's not sitting in midfield from what I saw.
 
Cina said:
Thanks for proving my point, I guess?
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I'd differ with your opinion about it not being all about the movement. I think both are heavily dependent on others movement off the ball when they are looking for a pass.
 
Revan said:
He wouldn't be even near the bench of teams like Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Dormund or Juve.
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He'll get playing time for Barcelona if he's in their team. Messi will cover for his lack of productivity, while his safe game and pressing is pretty much what they look for in a squad player to cover for Xavi when he needs a break.
 
RedSky At Night said:
I think Cleverley can be creative (as seen at the start of last season) but he's been told to sit in midfield which imo hampers his style. You're suggesting our play will improve if we sign a creative player to play alongside Carrick. I don't think it will because the issue is with the teams movement. We'll improve no doubt, but it's not a magic wand fix which the majority of the forum seems to think.

Fellaini for example will not solve this issue at all. But to throw shit at Cleverley and scapegoat him (not saying you are, but there are plenty who have been) is a bit laughable. It's exactly what happened when Fletcher broke through into the squad.

FYI, Hernandez is one of our best players when it comes to movement, second to Rooney imo. So it's no surprise we looked better with him in the team.
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I've never really seen Cleverley be creative, honestly, I can't think of any games for us where he's dominated and made shit happen for us. I'm not suggesting having a creative midfielder will fix our problems, not at all, I'm saying that Cleverley isn't one, he doesn't really excel at anything and I would much prefer a creative player in there because quite frankly, they're likely to be able to do all the safe and tidy stuff Cleverley does too.

By the way, he has not been the scapegoat today at all, at least 4-5 other players are getting way worse grief than him.

Not sure why you're mentioning Fellaini, I never did.

Thanks for the FYI on Hernandez there, didn't know that ;)
 
elmo said:
He'll get playing time for Barcelona if he's in their team. Messi will cover for his lack of productivity, while his safe game and pressing is pretty much what they look for in a squad player to cover for Xavi when he needs a break.
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Poor WUM?
 
Revan said:
He and Welbeck are judged here by a different standard to all other players. Even when he is awful there will be people who say that he played good. It's absurd!
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Cleverley was not awful today, he moved the ball around well, and made some good forward passes later on, finding the runs of Valencia and Hernandez when they came on. He wasn't helped out by our movement, it was all pretty static ahead of him. Yes he needs to be more adventurous, but if our wingers hadn't been so shit and actually created something themselves, we probably would have won.
 
Revan said:
Poor WUM?
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No, I'm being serious here. Barcelona is a team that presses hard, thrives on players movement to find the safest passing option for them to keep possession while waiting for their opponents to make mistakes before Messi scores. Cleverley's game is perfect for them.

*I'm not saying Cleverley would start for them, I'm just saying Cleverley will at least make the bench for Barcelona as he fits into their tactics very well.
 
Nickosaur said:
Cleverley was not awful today, he moved the ball around well, and made some good forward passes later on, finding the runs of Valencia and Hernandez when they came on. He wasn't helped out by our movement, it was all pretty static ahead of him. Yes he needs to be more adventurous, but if our wingers hadn't been so shit and actually created something themselves, we probably would have won.
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I don't want to go into the debate, but this was exactly what I was saying. Somehow, despite him being awful in everything today (and being the most un-creative United player I have seen in years) his performances seems to be acceptable to some.

He was one of the reason why our movement was so shit, because you know, he is supposed to be the player who connects the attack with defense. His passing stats was bad (82%) for a player who is a very safe passer. Most of his passed are either to defense or to Carrick. His creativity is non-existent and he offers nothing going forward. But still he's good.
 
elmo said:
No, I'm being serious here. Barcelona is a team that presses hard, thrives on players movement to find the safest passing option for them to keep possession while waiting for their opponents to make mistakes before Messi scores. Cleverley's game is perfect for them.

*I'm not saying Cleverley would start for them, I'm just saying Cleverley will at least make the bench for Barcelona B as he fits into their tactics very well.
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Corrected!

All Barca midfielders (even Busquets) are much more creative than Cleverley. Also their movement is excellent, while Cleverley's movement is almost as good as his creativity.
 
Decent player and our second best cm, which says a lot about our lack of quality in that area. Wouldn't have had a place on the bench in any of our CL winning seasons.
 
Prefer Cleverly higher up the park. Needs to work on his tackling. I think he's a bit of a soft touch. Would prefer to see Anderson and Carrick vs Palace. Cleverly needs to remember the things he's good at. When he first came into the team, he played a lot of nice effective short passing high up the pitch. If he's playing too deep, I don't think it'll work with Carrick.
 
People seem to think that players who have 80%+ passing success rate by default can play for Barca.

Not taking into account the way they press, create and move when off and on the ball.
 
Revan said:
I don't want to go into the debate, but this was exactly what I was saying. Somehow, despite him being awful in everything today (and being the most un-creative United player I have seen in years) his performances seems to be acceptable to some.
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I guess we'll just have to disagree there.

He was one of the reason why our movement was so shit
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And there.

Anyway, he needs to be a bit more adventurous, incisive, I agree with you on that. But I don't think we should write him off just yet. He's shown in the past (start of the 2011/12 season, and at times last season when we played that 'diamond' formation) that his general link-up play and passing game can be a huge asset to us.
 
Nickosaur said:
Anyway, he needs to be a bit more adventurous, incisive, I agree with you on that. But I don't think we should write him off just yet. He's shown in the past (start of the 2011/12 season, and at times last season when we played that 'diamond' formation) that his general link-up play and passing game can be a huge asset to us.
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Write off, no, simply because we lack quality there. But I can't ever see him being a starter for a United team that aims to win UCL.

He never replicated that form of 2011-2012 (that lasted for about 4-5 game) and even in that time he was very overrated.
 
He's been very underwhelming lately. I do like him and really want him to make it here, but I'd drop him for Anderson now, he impressed me much more than Tom did in pre season and I think he deserves more game time.
 
I think he did today as he usually does for us - a 6 or 7 out of 10. Like Gary Neville used to do for us. Just keeping it simple, keeping things ticking over, offer a lot of energy, endeavours, kept the ball relatively well, always made himself available to take the pass or make the runs. The problem today was 2 ineffective players - Young & Giggs - where the creativity and chances were suppose to come from. These 2 weren't even creating the penetration and chances for penetration these 2 positions should create.
 
jakec said:
He's been very underwhelming lately. I do like him and really want him to make it here, but I'd drop him for Anderson now, he impressed me much more than Tom did in pre season and I think he deserves more game time.
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We all know of your love for Anderson already, you don't need to keep saying this.
 
Cina said:
We all know of your love for Anderson already, you don't need to keep saying this.
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Nothing to do with Anderson really. It's more to do with Cleverely not performing. So at the moment it's either Anderson or Giggs. And I'd take Anderson every time.
 
With Anderson, you either get a performance worthy of a 8 or a 4..
 
The only way hes going to be more than a link up player is if we play a narrower formation. Him being limited to only keeping our midfield ticking is fine when our widemen perform but when they don't we need something more from him.

He'll certainly play a big part going forward, we just need that tactical alternative
 
When we're dominating he's a useful player, doesn't take too many risks and will give it back to the better players to do something. When they're not playing well and we need to make something happen he's just lacking for any sort of impact. Had a couple of more ambitious passes but not enough to make up for the fact that he doesn't give us a particularly solid midfield without a lot of work from the wingers.
 
As a back-up to Carrick, he's a useful squad member but playing them both makes us limited as an attacking force, especially against teams that play with a packed midfield. I just don't see his game evolving past the limited, tidy player he is.

Ultimately if he played for another team, I don't think we would be at all interested in signing him.
 
He's mid-twenties, generally a 6 or 7 out of 10 player, and seemingly has no competition fora starting place at Manchester United. Bit of a joke to be honest.
 
I really want him to be the answer but he just has not progressed at all. After defending him for the last couple of seasons I have conceded defeat today. He just hasn't got it.
 
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