Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

[Sunny Jim]

at times he reminds me of Fletcher with weaker engine but better ball control.

In the ideal world he would be a back-up to whoever partners Carrick on regular basis.

 

[Rozay]

Genuinely beleive Henderson is better.

 

[Macaris Socks]

I really want him to be the answer but he just has not progressed at all. After defending him for the last couple of seasons I have conceded defeat today. He just hasn't got it.

I think we all do, there's something rewarding about one of our own coming through but as you say, two seasons on he isn't stepping up the levels he needs to justify being a Manchester United first choice midfielder.

Sad but true.

 

[IrishLegend]

I thought he did alright today, one of the few players to actually attempt to carry the ball forward.
Not his fault there was feck all movement or desire in the squad today.

 

[kps88]

He's been mediocre for a while now but I don't think it's all his fault; he's not being used properly. I think he'll look a hell of a lot better if we set the team up differently. He's not suited to our current laborious, slow buildup with impotent wingers. I also think someone like Carrick's the worst sort of partner he can have when part of a midfield two.

 

[Stookie]

I thought he did alright today, one of the few players to actually attempt to carry the ball forward.
Not his fault there was feck all movement or desire in the squad today.

But that's the point- he didn't try to get forward hardly at all, when the ball came to him he went sideways- (like Ray Wilkins used to and that's why United fans nicknamed him 'the crab'), and passed it to defenders or wingers who were being marked. he's not a BAD player, but surely not good enough for United?? and he is not on his own.

 

[ghaliboy]

Spoiler: key

Spoiler: Tom Cleverley vs Liverpool AWAY

 

[Scrumpet]

We didn't actually shoot from there, did we?

Edit: I forgot that players have legs to run with.

 

[charlenefan]

I still like Cleverley and still feel we should be getting behind him rather than itching to replace him with a 3rd/4th choice option from Spain. I thought he played well today, showed good range of passing albeit while never really trying to unlock anything directly himself, the way he's played this season almost says to me he's been told to be less expressive with his passing as last season he played a lot more forward passes than he has this thus far

I'm glad Moyes is playing him in there, if Fergie was still in charge I fear we'd be lining up with the Carrick + Giggs double act (assuming like Moyes Fergie didn't bring anyone in which tbh I doubt would be the reality)

 

[Mr Anderson]

Feck the stats, he offered nothing today. He was the link really, or supposed to be, between midfield and attack. Didnt give enough options to our wingers (when they decided to actually go down the wing) . You'd see him offshot standing flat footed or making a run forward away from the ball. Didnt impose himself on the game at all, and that is what we needed. This also lead to a slow tempo in midfield. He is capable of better, but he should have been up for it today against Liverpool, of all sides.

 

[ghaliboy]

I still feel he's playing way to far away from goal. He'd be pretty comfortable in developing from the no10 role. Plenty of emphasis on critical passing and he's shown that he 'can' shoot.

In this role he's playing he's the legs as a pass and move player in a system completely designed for him to never get the ball back because he's so far from goal. It's a bit bizarre. I'd love to see him have a crack at the number 10 because I think he has attributes to excel there given a chance. It would up his confidence if he were to play well and be involved there.

 

[wonnie]

I still like Cleverley and still feel we should be getting behind him rather than itching to replace him with a 3rd/4th choice option from Spain. I thought he played well today, showed good range of passing albeit while never really trying to unlock anything directly himself, the way he's played this season almost says to me he's been told to be less expressive with his passing as last season he played a lot more forward passes than he has this thus far

I'm glad Moyes is playing him in there, if Fergie was still in charge I fear we'd be lining up with the Carrick + Giggs double act (assuming like Moyes Fergie didn't bring anyone in which tbh I doubt would be the reality)

Cleverley has a lot of the attributes we need in CM - legs, retains possession, quick movement, crisp short passing, hassles well etc. But his positioning in a 2 man CM is woeful. Why does he insist on bombing up the field or drifting to the flanks so often. It really makes it difficult for Carrick to dictate things from CM by himself.

 

[Dargonk]

Has cleverley become a scapegoat or something? He didn't play badly I thought. He kept control of the ball and moved things about fairly well I thought. If anything things generally broke down as the ball went wide and we seemed to run out of ideas in the forward third.

At times our biggest problem was how quickly we brought the ball forward, which he wasn't at fault for. We either held up the ball to long or didn't have enough movement up top really.

 

[charlenefan]

Has cleverley become a scapegoat or something?

He's fast becoming the new Gibson which given the amount of ability he has over Gibson is a huge shame, I have no doubts he'll turn the doubters around like Fletcher did (he's got tons more ability than Fletcher as well)

 

[mlclauhk]

He's fast becoming the new Gibson which given the amount of ability he has over Gibson is a huge shame, I have no doubts he'll turn the doubters around like Fletcher did (he's got tons more ability than Fletcher as well)

We don't have the luxury of giving him time to "come good". Not when our rivals are strengthening significantly.

For all his industry and ability that people perceive him to have, would he be good enough to start for Chelsea, Man City, let alone Spurs with their new signings? I doubt it. What worries me most, is that if he isn't good enough to start for them, he's starting for us against the same players.

In all honestly, he's an above average player, who's lucked out and seeing as we have no one else better than him at the moment, will continue to start for us, until we find someone better, at which point, he'll go back to being 3rd/4th choice.

 

[Adebesi]

I like Cleverley and I dont rule out the possibility of him coming good at United but I still think he needs to be surrounded by quality to maximise the chances of that happening, and that includes ensuring he has stiff competition for his place. I certainly dont see the arrival of a top quality midfielder as signalling the end for him, it is a chance to learn and to raise his game to get into the team. If things carry on as they are it will stunt his development far more IMO.

 

[Carl]

Has cleverley become a scapegoat or something[/B]? He didn't play badly I thought. He kept control of the ball and moved things about fairly well I thought. If anything things generally broke down as the ball went wide and we seemed to run out of ideas in the forward third.

At times our biggest problem was how quickly we brought the ball forward, which he wasn't at fault for. We either held up the ball to long or didn't have enough movement up top really.

Yes. Well, one of the current fashionable scapegoats anyway. Welbeck, Young and Valencia are the others.

 

[moses]

Yes. Well, one of the current fashionable scapegoats anyway. Welbeck, Young and Valencia are the others.

It's not like they are randomly chosen, none are playing particularly well just at the moment?

I just get the not investing so we don't stunt Tom's development brigade, surely we want all the best players we can get to raise the standard and good players will up their game. What has Tom ever done to warrant us nurturing his career over the overall improvement of the team. The team comes first, always.

 

[charlenefan]

We don't have the luxury of giving him time to "come good". Not when our rivals are strengthening significantly.

Really? I wasn't under the impression it was life or death that we win the PL/UCL this season?

 

[Carl]

It's not like they are randomly chosen, none are playing particularly well just at the moment?

I just get the not investing so we don't stunt Tom's development brigade, surely we want all the best players we can get to raise the standard and good players will up their game. What has Tom ever done to warrant us nurturing his career over the overall improvement of the team. The team comes first, always.

Agreed, but due to that they're judged by different, more harsher standards than most.

It amused me yesterday how 'tards in the matchday thread were rushing in their droves to excuse Nani of any mistakes due to rustiness (understandable) yet Young wasn't allowed anywhere near the same amount of wriggle room.

 

[moses]

Agreed, but due to that they're judged by different, more harsher standards than most.

It amused me yesterday how 'tards in the matchday thread were rushing in their droves to excuse Nani of any mistakes due to rustiness (understandable) yet Young wasn't allowed anywhere near the same amount of wriggle room.

Yes, the inconsistency when judging players is probably the most annoying part of the forum. People arguing to defend their own preferences or preconceptions.

 

[Revan]

Yes. Well, one of the current fashionable scapegoats anyway. Welbeck, Young and Valencia are the others.

Cleverley and Welbeck are specialy judged on redcafe. If they weren't from academy of United, people would have been looking for their head long ago. Even yesterday when they had atrocious performances there were a lot of people who were saying that they played fine.

 

[Eirik Raude]

Decent player, good man to have in the squad, but not good enough to be a regular starter for a team like Manchester United. Against the better sides in England and Europe, he simply falls short.

 

[Siorac]

Agreed, but due to that they're judged by different, more harsher standards than most.

It amused me yesterday how 'tards in the matchday thread were rushing in their droves to excuse Nani of any mistakes due to rustiness (understandable) yet Young wasn't allowed anywhere near the same amount of wriggle room.

That has a lot to do with Nani having a far, far higher 'top level' than Young.

 

[mlclauhk]

Really? I wasn't under the impression it was life or death that we win the PL/UCL this season?

Strange comment. Why would you not want the club to stay competitive? Surely that's the whole point of playing in a league or in a cup competition. As much as you'd like to see little Tom Cleverely running around the pitch spraying the ball backwards to De Gea for 90 minutes, I think you might be in the minority.

We're not a charity. We're a competitive football club with a manager, players, owners and fans who want to see them win things.

 

[Drainy]

Cleverley and Welbeck are specialy judged on redcafe. If they weren't from academy of United, people would have been looking for their head long ago.

I think you are ignoring all the people who have been calling for their heads for a while now, from the moment they were first brought into the team in fact. You always get the retards who want perfection from young lads stepping up from lower level competitions to play in our first team but it doesn't work like that. It's a slow development process.

Why shouldn't young inexperienced players be judged differently? If they were 27/28 year olds with bags of top flight experience making mistakes and drifting through games you'd be slightly less of a twat to call for their head, but Welbeck is only just turning 23 this time, and Cleverley is very inexperienced for his age- perfectly legitimate reasons to accept that they aren't the finished articles and give them time.

At the end of the day, we are investing time in them to try and help them reach their potential and both currently contribute ably to the squad- try and be more fecking patient.

 

[charlenefan]

Strange comment. Why would you not want the club to stay competitive? Surely that's the whole point of playing in a league or in a cup competition. As much as you'd like to see little Tom Cleverely running around the pitch spraying the ball backwards to De Gea for 90 minutes, I think you might be in the minority.

We're not a charity. We're a competitive football club with a manager, players, owners and fans who want to see them win things.

We're also not a club that is full of flavour of the months, we're a club that gives youth a chance. You might be supporting the wrong club if you're all about the short term

 

[Adebesi]

Man United fans demanding success shocker!

 

[Drainy]

Man United fans demanding success shocker!

The problem isn't with demanding success, it's demanding immediate success in literally every game, and throwing the toys out of the pram every time we lose or even look shaky for a 15 minute period in a game, crying every time a striker misses a chance, whining every time we lose the ball in midfield. It's like some fans have forgotten that the players can't be perfect, and sometimes the opposition actually play well.

We've had a squad system that has been successful in the league for 20 years now, there isn't a need to completely throw it out of the window because Sir Alex retired. Cleverley and Welbeck are now at the stage where they are 1st team squad players, but their role in the team is to support our key players- Carrick, Rooney and RvP. They are not expected to perform at their level consistently, just to do a job to support those key players, do the leg work and to chip in whenever possible while they mature and become more prepared to take on more responsibility. It's all part of the squad progression system.

 

[Adebesi]

I was more responding to Charlene, and the implication that people who demand short term success might support the wrong club. Which made me laugh given we are probably the club most associated with glory hunting fans.

 

[arthurka]

He had dreadful day at the office yesterday... He has played 30-40 games for us with mixed results. I thought the pressure got to him yesterday. He clearly isnt ready to stake his claim at United yet. But more worrying we still have Ando..

 

[mlclauhk]

We're also not a club that is full of flavour of the months, we're a club that gives youth a chance. You might be supporting the wrong club if you're all about the short term

Oh right, sorry, I don't fufil your criteria to support the club... I'll support who I bloody well like thanks.

I'm all for giving youth a chance and i've never said that we are entitled to success. Is aiming to "win things" a bad thing for our young players to aspire to? I'm sure even your precious Tom, bless him, wants to win things. Thing is, he's had a chance and i'm not the only one that hasn't been impressed. My honest opinion is that he'll never make it here. He's a mid-table club player and will end up like Gibson.

 

[Revan]

I think you are ignoring all the people who have been calling for their heads for a while now, from the moment they were first brought into the team in fact. You always get the retards who want perfection from young lads stepping up from lower level competitions to play in our first team but it doesn't work like that. It's a slow development process.

Why shouldn't young inexperienced players be judged differently? If they were 27/28 year olds with bags of top flight experience making mistakes and drifting through games you'd be slightly less of a twat to call for their head, but Welbeck is only just turning 23 this time, and Cleverley is very inexperienced for his age- perfectly legitimate reasons to accept that they aren't the finished articles and give them time.

At the end of the day, we are investing time in them to try and help them reach their potential and both currently contribute ably to the squad- try and be more fecking patient.

Certainly there aren't as many people who are asking for their head. Take Lynk who is generally known as the biggest Welbeck anti-fanboy and still I think he's right more often than not. It only needs Welbeck to play a good game and people will go crazy and compare him with Henry. Even now, a lot of people will say that he's better than Sturridge or Balotelli. Same for Cleverley (with exception here that Welbeck at-least give some times stellar performances).

We all want our academy players to do well, but for some people saying that Welbeck/Cleverley isn't doing that well, haven't progressed or even didn't play good is a blasphemy. I genuinely don't believe that anyone who watched the game yesterday thinks that Cleverley played well, but still we got a lot of people who are saying that. It's madness, really.

Serious question, would you think that anyone here would have asked to sign Cleverley if he wasn't a United player?

Also, 23-24 years old is not entirely young. People give excuses for bad performances Welbeck/Cleverley make like they are Zaha or Powell. This is the fourth year they are playing regularly at EPL and the third year for United.

 

[Adebesi]

United sign a midfielder? I enjoy a hypothetical question as much as the next man but you'll end up being sectioned coming out with nonsense like that.

 

[Adebesi]

I think Welbeck and Cleverley are quite different cases though. I think the former is progressing at a very reasonable rate and is a very good player to have around, as a third choice striker, and one with a different set of attributes to the others on the books - having him and Chicharito around is particularly good as they are so different. He is at his local club and will be free of that ego that makes dropping him problematic.

It SHOULD be the same with Cleverley but it isnt because we dont have the other options in that position that would help with his footballing education and give us more quality there when needed. Cleverley should be learning off better, more established midfielders, getting games when he earns them and fighting hard for his place. That would be better for the team and better for him in the long run as it would improve him immensely. If Welbeck and Rooney were our only recognised strikers it would be a similar situation, except at least you can get away with playing only one striker.

 

[Drainy]

Serious question, would you think that anyone here would have asked to sign Cleverley if he wasn't a United player?

Also, 23-24 years old is not entirely young. People give excuses for bad performances Welbeck/Cleverley make like they are Zaha or Powell. This is the fourth year they are playing regularly at EPL and the third year for United.

I doubt any fans would want to sign Cleverley based on previous seasons but we may have signed him as a 'punt' based on his technical ability and game intelligence, because our scouts are better at picking out prospects than the general public are- he's good enough to play a supporting role in our first team in most games, a poor game at Anfield may cause kneejerkers to jerk their knees but sensible people will appreciate that it's not reflective of his overall level and remain patient- even if it might be time to take him out of the firing line it's not time to write him off. Who knows, he may never kick on and may have to leave- but we won't find out unless we give him game time, and he hardly ever lets the team down.

Cleverley is a late developer, most football fans are terrible at judging the potential of any player who is not in the special bracket, particularly if they do not have a physical advantage. He's 24, literally the same age as Herrera who we are trying to sign but he's played 40+ fewer games (and a lot of his games were not in the top flight), he's still a baby experience-wise.

Every player has poor games (we tend to freeze at Anfield anyway), young players tend to have more than experienced ones, but thats why we need to have the players who can come in and take the pressure off them when it's time to. Unfortunately, we're shockingly short in midfield at the moment so there is more pressure on Cleverley than he's probably ready for. Like I said earlier in the thread, people won't appreciate what he does for the team until he has an extended period out of the side and we still have moments where the other team is on top, because that is football- sometimes the other side play well and you don't.

 

[Nighteyes]

Herrera signing will help Cleverley. I suspect some of you watch every match waiting to pounce on a Cleverley error and rush to redcafe with a loud proclamation of "WE NEED A feckIN MIDFIELDER". This should ease the scapegoating of Cleverley....hopefully anyway

 

[Revan]

I doubt any fans would want to sign Cleverley based on previous seasons but we may have signed him as a 'punt' based on his technical ability and game intelligence, because our scouts are better at picking out prospects than the general public are- he's good enough to play a supporting role in our first team in most games, a poor game at Anfield may cause kneejerkers to jerk their knees but sensible people will appreciate that it's not reflective of his overall level and remain patient- even if it might be time to take him out of the firing line it's not time to write him off. Who knows, he may never kick on and may have to leave- but we won't find out unless we give him game time, and he hardly ever lets the team down.

Cleverley is a late developer, most football fans are terrible at judging the potential of any player who is not in the special bracket, particularly if they do not have a physical advantage. He's 24, literally the same age as Herrera who we are trying to sign but he's played 40+ fewer games (and a lot of his games were not in the top flight), he's still a baby experience-wise.

Every player has poor games (we tend to freeze at Anfield anyway), young players tend to have more than experienced ones, but thats why we need to have the players who can come in and take the pressure off them when it's time to. Unfortunately, we're shockingly short in midfield at the moment so there is more pressure on Cleverley than he's probably ready for. Like I said earlier in the thread, people won't appreciate what he does for the team until he has an extended period out of the side and we still have moments where the other team is on top, because that is football- sometimes the other side play well and you don't.

Seriously I don't see that much football intelligence on Cleverley. His positioning is far from the best and he very rarely goes forward. Most of his passes are either to Carrick or to our center backs, hardly something that needs football intelligence.

The performance at Anfield wasn't his only bad performance. He usually gives okay performances without shining. I think that he played particularly well against Chelsea, probably his best game since the start of 11-12 season, but I think he was bad against Swansea. At the moment he is good to be a starter in a club that is outside of top 6, but not at United.

While I think that in teams like Bayern, BVB, Juve, Real and Barca he wouldn't have a chance to be even in the bench, I am happy if we keep him and develop him. But not as a starter. At the moment he isn't as good as to start for a club that aims to win all trophies.

Late boomer? I don't have any idea about this and I doubt that anyone on the caf knows. I think only people who train with him can have a hope to know about that. At the moment, I think is more a wishful thinking.excuse to say that.

Anyway, from the beginning my point was about his fanboys that go batshit crazy if someone dares to say the obvious, that he isn't playing that well. Personally I am happy to keep him for another season or two and to see how things go. But hopefully not as our second best midfielder cause we'll be in deep trouble if that's the case.

 

[Drainy]

anyone remember when people said Carrick only passed the ball sideways and back? He was the previous scapegoat in midfield and he had quite a bit of experience behind him.

Ok, Carrick has a better passing range than Cleverley, while Tom is better at supporting the attack and making himself available to receive the ball higher up the pitch but the point stands.. it's difficult, even for highly talented footballers, to come into our first team and express themselves until they mature.

 

[Drainy]

Seriously I don't see that much football intelligence on Cleverley. His positioning is far from the best and he very rarely goes forward. Most of his passes are either to Carrick or to our center backs, hardly something that needs football intelligence.

Late boomer? I don't have any idea about this and I doubt that anyone on the caf knows. I think only people who train with him can have a hope to know about that. At the moment, I think is more a wishful thinking.excuse to say that.

Anyway, from the beginning my point was about his fanboys that go batshit crazy if someone dares to say the obvious, that he isn't playing that well. Personally I am happy to keep him for another season or two and to see how things go. But hopefully not as our second best midfielder cause we'll be in deep trouble if that's the case.

SAF on Cleverley

"He is a very clever footballer. He has got a quick brain in terms of appreciation of passing," Ferguson said. "He gives us more ammunition in midfield which a few months ago everyone was starting to worry about."

Well given that he's been held back at every level of youth football due to his physical size (I think I remember hearing that he was down to training at the club a few nights a week when other boys his age had more face time due to it), the club considered releasing him at 16 because he was too small but gave him a chance I'd say it's pretty safe to say he's a late bloomer.

I think most people agree we need to strengthen in midfield, but there is no need to tear into a lad who's learning his trade and is 'okay' in most games. He's a young player, working hard, playing a supporting role and being forced to play more at the moment than he should because the club has been slack with it's squad management.