Good analysis as always Ash. To be fair to Tom he did get the ball into wider areas on numerous occasions and it's not his fault they were too conservative with the ball. I suppose a lot of my gripes are based around the fact I would like to see more movement and creativity in the central areas, moving the ball into the attacking third with real fluidity. To often the ball is just pinged sideways or down either side and back again. Repeat....Repeat. Yawn.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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Good analysis as always Ash. To be fair to Tom he did get the ball into wider areas on numerous occasions and it's not his fault they were too conservative with the ball. I suppose a lot of my gripes are based around the fact I would like to see more movement and creativity in the central areas, moving the ball into the attacking third with real fluidity. To often the ball is just pinged sideways or down either side and back again. Repeat....Repeat. Yawn.
Cheers. Yeah I know where you're coming from. It's frustrating because I think people are forgetting how good that tactic can be. I like seeing the little interplay and smart runs/passes which is the popular thing at the moment, but I love seeing a winger flying down his flank getting a good ball in. Unfortunately our wingers are just not doing that. Valencia's got the work rate but really lacks any flair/willingness to do something when its tough, Young is hit and miss and lord knows whats happening with Nani. The worst thing is we know with Nani and Valencia they are top wingers, they just need someone to wake them up.
It's still early days though, Nani if he is staying which I hope he is looked great in the half hour he played in pre-season, so hopefully he will continue that. I think Valencia has showed signs of recovery as well. As you said if Clev isn't going to provide that creativity from the middle then it's all the more important the wingers try to do more.
I believe it was the Charity Sheild of Summer 2011, which then lead to him playing such football in the early stages of 11/12 (until Kevin Davies injured him). The 3-3 you're on about, though, is from the 12/13 season - Van Persie scored two in that, did he not? In 11/12, we beat Chelsea 3-1 at OT (part of our early season streak of great football).
Christ on a bike. Basically everything I've said here in the past few weeks with regards to times on previous games has been total crap. Losing my marbles.
Thanks though CC.
Aaah. Now I get it. You had lost me earlier. You had asked that question quoting a comment I had made about Fellaini.
Carrick will sit back and run things from deep as he does now. His role wont change. And Fellaini's attacking qualities arent something i rate very highly. He's not going to have the kind of impact he did at Everton while playing as the supporting striker from midfield here. It's still a good signing and one am happy with but we'; see a lot of Clev even with Fellaini in the squad.
Didn't we beat Chelsea 3-1 back then?
EDIT: Yes, we did.
Cleverley didn't take part as he got injured v Bolton a week earlier though.
Carrick was even on the bench in the game against Bolton, in which we started with Anderson & Cleverley in the middle of the park.
I can only say that a lot of the criticisms being levelled at Tom were the same ones levelled at Carrick "he isn't creative enough" "he only keeps it simple" and the rest.
Of course we would like to see Tom do more but that isn't to say what he is doing now isn't for the betterment of himself, but instead for the good of the whole team. He will grow into his role, much in the same way as Carrick has.
Of course we would like to see Tom do more but that isn't to say what he is doing now isn't for the betterment of himself, but instead for the good of the whole team. He will grow into his role, much in the same way as Carrick has.
I don't get this argument though, there's a clear distinction between carrick who was perhaps not being assertive enough in matches but was still playing an important defensive role, to cleverley who albeit ha shown he can put on a shift when he has to but is generally lacking defensively and who also doesn't contribute much going forward with carrick playing the more incisive passes more often. Carrick was always doing an important defensive role, Cleveley at times can be accused of mainly just keeping the ball which should be the minimum for someone starting for a team of our level. Hopefully he will grow in to it though.
I didn't see him lack much defensively against Chelsea, but that is only one game, but he has done well in others.
Central midfield is probably one of the most difficult positions to play in football, it must take a shit load of learning before you start feeling truly comfortable with it. It will be a slow process with Tom, I just hope he is afforded patience from our fan base. It took Fletch ages to come into his own. Tom will be similar, but look at how well Fletch did when he finally hit form. It will happen for Tom, it just might take this season and then possibly next before he starts taking over games.
Well that's what I meant by him being able to put in a shift. When he has to hold his positions than he can do a good job next to carrick in a defensive context but on the ball I would still argue he's lacking creatively. So he's not as good defensively to allow us to use a system like city where there are two strong defensive players in the middle, ie Toure and fernandinho now previously Garcia or Barry, or de Jong. But we cant rewlly go for a more creative middle as clev is also not really creating much either so for me he's not doing enough.
Tbf as I've said above I think this is exaggerated by the wide players not being hugely creative atm. However in games where we are on top and clev has more freedom I think his lack of creativity is more of an issue. Again personally I don't think he's doing enough because he's clearly not defending as well as carrick and he's not really being that incisive with his passing, certainly less so on average than carrick.
I'm happy to give him time though, I think he can become a good player for us. I just think right now he's really a player who is simply just there. He keeps the ball well, but can be accused of being too safe and really keeping the ball is the minimum we should expect. Again personally I wouldn't liken to fletcher because fletcher had an important role. However you rated his attacking contribution defensively he was fulfilling a very important duty in first protecting keane and scholes when he first came through and later helping to compensate for ronaldo not tracking.
Right now without the calibre of players such as those to either make up for or protect which I don't think clev would do anyway, we need more from him, particularly if the wide creativity doesn't pick up.
Still early in the season so hopefully he will grow over it, but he's 24 now, he needs to start doing more in games.
Tbf as I've said above I think this is exaggerated by the wide players not being hugely creative atm. However in games where we are on top and clev has more freedom I think his lack of creativity is more of an issue. Again personally I don't think he's doing enough because he's clearly not defending as well as carrick and he's not really being that incisive with his passing, certainly less so on average than carrick.
I'm happy to give him time though, I think he can become a good player for us. I just think right now he's really a player who is simply just there. He keeps the ball well, but can be accused of being too safe and really keeping the ball is the minimum we should expect. Again personally I wouldn't liken to fletcher because fletcher had an important role. However you rated his attacking contribution defensively he was fulfilling a very important duty in first protecting keane and scholes when he first came through and later helping to compensate for ronaldo not tracking.
Right now without the calibre of players such as those to either make up for or protect which I don't think clev would do anyway, we need more from him, particularly if the wide creativity doesn't pick up.
Still early in the season so hopefully he will grow over it, but he's 24 now, he needs to start doing more in games.
I've always had a strange, Mike Ross-like ability to remember the exact season (often even the month) a match was played, including every single goalscorer (often including the opposition, & exactly how the goal was scored, from touch to touch). In person & without a computer, one could name any game from any season & i'd tell you exactly how the game played out (as long as I have watched the match once, including matches from before I was born), & it is a categorical, complete memory. Let me tell you one thing though, to not feel so bad about yourself - i'm still young, & i'd be lying if I said I didn't dread the idea of possibly losing my memory as I age, even a little bit!
Edit: I just read this paragraph over. What a ridiculous answer.
If I tipped out a box of matches would you be able to tell how many there were without counting?
Yes, actually! It often says on the box.
Didn't the starting central midfield partnership of Cleverley-Carrick in central midfield only lose 1 league game last year? And maybe 2 games overall including Real Madrid at home (where they were very good)
Pretty sure they started together in a lot of tough games and performed well, strangely seemed to do better in those as had to have more discipline about him and not get carried away being everywhere on the pitch - plus there tended to be an extra man helping back from behind the striker.
Damn, I can't find the thread anymore - maybe it was in the newbies - but I remember as a partnership they had an incredibly good record.
I just think he needs to be encouraged to take a few more risks with his passing - in the last few seasons players tended to keep the ball around the box, wingers didn't take on their men but chose to play a short pass instead.. I dunno, I started to get the feeling that Ferguson was really trying to push us to be more like Barcelona, and it would sometimes harm our creativity and players would ignore opportunities. Whether directed from Ferguson, Cleverley has definitely been a culprit for this.
The only thing really missing from his game is knowing when to press and when to hold, and his finishing could do with some work - but I think both will come with some more experience. He's not on Fabregas' level of course, definitely never going to be a world star, but I think he's good enough with a strong partner.
Pretty sure they started together in a lot of tough games and performed well, strangely seemed to do better in those as had to have more discipline about him and not get carried away being everywhere on the pitch - plus there tended to be an extra man helping back from behind the striker.
Damn, I can't find the thread anymore - maybe it was in the newbies - but I remember as a partnership they had an incredibly good record.
I just think he needs to be encouraged to take a few more risks with his passing - in the last few seasons players tended to keep the ball around the box, wingers didn't take on their men but chose to play a short pass instead.. I dunno, I started to get the feeling that Ferguson was really trying to push us to be more like Barcelona, and it would sometimes harm our creativity and players would ignore opportunities. Whether directed from Ferguson, Cleverley has definitely been a culprit for this.
The only thing really missing from his game is knowing when to press and when to hold, and his finishing could do with some work - but I think both will come with some more experience. He's not on Fabregas' level of course, definitely never going to be a world star, but I think he's good enough with a strong partner.
I am pretty sure in either this one or the Carrick thread I debunked the 'we were more open with Ando and Clev' myth and that we actually conceded less goals while scoring more than when Carrick and XX started the year before and after.
It's one of those sticky caf myths. People remember the 2 goals Arsenal got in the 8-2 massacre, but not the defensively rock solid 3-0 defeat of Spurs, or the 5-0 thrashing of Bolton.
Plus everyone seems to see the 6-1 defeat to City as part of that run of games - reflective of those supposed defensive failings coming home to roost, or something. Whereas in fact it was the culmination of the poor run of form caused by Cleverley's absence after Davies targeted and injured him in the Bolton match.
I could be wrong. I could have been dreaming it. But we had something like 24 and 6 with Ando and Clevs, but 21 and 8 with Carrick and X.
CBF going back and finding it though.
edit; It was such a shame Cleverley got injured. We were flying that year.
CBF going back and finding it though.
edit; It was such a shame Cleverley got injured. We were flying that year.
Just because we didn't concede against Spurs doesn't mean it was a defensively rock solid performance. I remember it as a very open game.
Looking it up, there were 47 shots in that game! Though to be fair half of those were van der Vaart shooting from ridiculous distances because DDG was perceived to be a liability after the community shield.
Looking it up, there were 47 shots in that game! Though to be fair half of those were van der Vaart shooting from ridiculous distances because DDG was perceived to be a liability after the community shield.
The sideways passing thing always amuses me.
Firstly if you take a good look at how Cleverley receives the ball he uses his quick feet more than others to do a thing called " receiving with a positive touch" which basically means receiving with a view to play forward. If the pass forward is not on then he goes for his next option. His body shape when going to receive the ball shows you his intention where possible is to play forward, its very clear to see. He is a very busy player providing a lot of link up work so touches the ball more than most of the other players. The other thing to add in to the mix is that every time the ball moves opposition players move which in turn is related to a thing called ball speed. Ball speed isnt how fast a ball itself is travelling but is how quickly the ball moves from player to player. So if we are moving the ball from player to player quickly we have a better chance of moving opposition defenders out of their defensive channels and lines.
Often Cleverely makes himself available for the ball so he can draw in a defender and move it to a team mate who is then in a better position to move the ball forward. Sometimes depending on how well drilled the opposition defenses are this may need to happen a couple of times to get the ball forward into the attacking third.
Cleverley is one of the best in the EPL at finding space to receive the ball and one of the best at making runs which are designed to clear space for others to find a pass.
Sometimes people cant see the wood for the trees. This situation with Cleverley is very much like Fletchers a few years ago. Cleverely would have to be one of the very best in the EPL at keeping the ball circulating and moving which for any team is an incredibly valuable asset.
The one weakness Cleverely has for me is that he doesnt dribble at the opposition and beat them 1 v 1. As it is however he is a superb player and most of us (the blind) dont know how lucky we are.
Next time you are about to have a whine about a sideways pass from Cleverley take a moment to see what happens to the ball a pass or 2 later and where it went forward after his movement and positioning.
Firstly if you take a good look at how Cleverley receives the ball he uses his quick feet more than others to do a thing called " receiving with a positive touch" which basically means receiving with a view to play forward. If the pass forward is not on then he goes for his next option. His body shape when going to receive the ball shows you his intention where possible is to play forward, its very clear to see. He is a very busy player providing a lot of link up work so touches the ball more than most of the other players. The other thing to add in to the mix is that every time the ball moves opposition players move which in turn is related to a thing called ball speed. Ball speed isnt how fast a ball itself is travelling but is how quickly the ball moves from player to player. So if we are moving the ball from player to player quickly we have a better chance of moving opposition defenders out of their defensive channels and lines.
Often Cleverely makes himself available for the ball so he can draw in a defender and move it to a team mate who is then in a better position to move the ball forward. Sometimes depending on how well drilled the opposition defenses are this may need to happen a couple of times to get the ball forward into the attacking third.
Cleverley is one of the best in the EPL at finding space to receive the ball and one of the best at making runs which are designed to clear space for others to find a pass.
Sometimes people cant see the wood for the trees. This situation with Cleverley is very much like Fletchers a few years ago. Cleverely would have to be one of the very best in the EPL at keeping the ball circulating and moving which for any team is an incredibly valuable asset.
The one weakness Cleverely has for me is that he doesnt dribble at the opposition and beat them 1 v 1. As it is however he is a superb player and most of us (the blind) dont know how lucky we are.
Next time you are about to have a whine about a sideways pass from Cleverley take a moment to see what happens to the ball a pass or 2 later and where it went forward after his movement and positioning.
Arsenal had 19 shots in the 8-2 and Bolton had 20 shots in the 5-0!
Isn't that exactly what it means?
A clean sheet is a clean sheet.Admittedly there is a definite opinion that we were open and it's a valid opinion. The scoreboard said otherwise though.
Of course not, you don't have to be defensively rock solid to keep a clean sheet.
Shots against is a better indicator of how open we were than goals conceded, I'd say.
Shots against is a better indicator of how open we were than goals conceded, I'd say.
Perhaps better but still lots of faults with it. If we let somebody shoot from range trusting our keeper and their inability it doesnt mean we were particularly open.
Can go the other way also, Arsenal tearing you apart but deciding to only shoot at the perfect opportunity.
Cleverley's probably on the forum in the Fellaini thread, trashing the Belgian. He's the one who would likely lose out the most if we do bring in another central midfielder.
He's come such a long way from his academy days, I can only hope he continues to improve at the same rate.
He's come such a long way from his academy days, I can only hope he continues to improve at the same rate.
Now that I think about it, Cleverly's apparent lack of attacking intent wouldn't actually matter very much if we had more creativity from the forwards. Rooney put in a good shift but he didn't demand the ball enough or do too much with it; same with Valencia - Welbeck was mostly invisible.
He had a good game against Chelsea for what he was required to do and could be a good partner for Carrick going forward this season.
He had a good game against Chelsea for what he was required to do and could be a good partner for Carrick going forward this season.
Looked to me that Moyes had told Carrick and Cleverley to sit in midfield.
Someone must have said this about Makelele when he was 24/25.
If he turns into a dedicated defensive midfielder, he'll get his chance as Carrick fades. None of our transfer targets seem to be in that disciplined sitting mould, not even Fellaini.
I would love this personally. I like the idea of our sitting midfielder being really comfortable in tight spaces. Carrick's good at it, but I think Cleverley has the potential to be almost as good as Scholes at making a yard for himself.
True enough, and I'd be thrilled if he proves me wrong. He'll be very, very good, but he won't hit that very top bracket of midfielders in my opinion.
Cleverly is already playing at a higher level than I thought he would, so I wouldn't be surprised if he improved yet again and made it the top bracket of midfielders. I honestly didn't see much in him initially, but now we see him mixing it with the best the Prem has to offer, as was the case against Chelsea.
Agree. He doesn't have to be though, still can be extremely useful for United and have a long and succesfull career at the club.
probably the best thing to happen for Cleverley's stock to rise would be for us to sign a new midfielder and them keep him out of the team for a bit. 15 minutes of us not having the ball with the other team looking dominant and whoever the next scapegoat is will get the blame.
Looked fecking shit house today. We need a fecking midfielder.
Mr Back-Pass
Doesnt add enough going forward
He was complete turd today.
Master of the safe sideway pass.
Manchester United should do better.
I'm sure I'll be lambasted and told to feck off and go and support a team that believes in buying top players for weak areas as opposed to playing young players - but yes, we should be doing better than Tom Cleverley week in, week out.
I'm sure I'll be lambasted and told to feck off and go and support a team that believes in buying top players for weak areas as opposed to playing young players - but yes, we should be doing better than Tom Cleverley week in, week out.
He will have about 20 yards of space in front of him, yet pass the ball to Rio and then stand still. He's not good enough to play in these games.
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