Agreed. I thought he was excellent yesterday considering we dominated the midfield for most of the game. However some ppl will never be happy until the club signs their "favourite" midfielder
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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Agreed. I thought he was excellent yesterday considering we dominated the midfield for most of the game. However some ppl will never be happy until the club signs their "favourite" midfielder
I liked Tom yesterday..
He looked calm and composed, never struggled and sprayed the passes like a man possesed..
He looked calm and composed, never struggled and sprayed the passes like a man possesed..
Oh, I know. My point is he shouldn't be in the first team. We should have midfileders who could compete with midfielders in the other top clubs in Europe (Bayern, Barca, Real etc.) If we had that quality of cm Cleverley would be a squad player, which would be where he deserves to be based on his actual quality. The fact that he's in the 1st team here is a reflection of our weaknesses rather than his strength.
We didn't dominate anything. Chelsea were quite happy for our midfield to keep the ball as there was no penetration whatsoever.
He's below average defensively, lacks the positional ability of Carrick in a defensive sense and he seems to lack presence too. He's got a heck of a lot of developing to do before he can cover for Carrick. At 24 Carrick looked a level above Tom's current level from a defensive standpoint.
Not really. If they were content to let us just have the ball and sit back, they'd have started with Mikel instead of Lampard.
He'll never be a world class player, but that shouldn't undermine the qualities he brings to the team. Always available for a pass and linking up the play, and he's showing that he can play the killer ball now and then as well.
Yes really. What does Mikel offer on the break? Nothing. He picked Lampard because he has the nous to pick the right pass or sniff out an opportunity. Jose set them up to break with pace and fluidity, he wasn't concerned about Carrick or Cleverley keeping the ball as there was no forward penetration in their passing. Rooney had to drop into midfield to get onto the ball and make things happen.
They were playing defensively, am not arguing that. What am saying is that we didnt dominate possession because Chelsea let us. Clev and Carrick had very good games. Had they gone into the game with an intention to let us have the ball, they wouldnt have gone in with just 1 defensively sound CM in Ramires. I get your point about Lampard being the one to set up quick attacking forays but that wasnt really happening last game. A more effective approach then would have been to drop de bruyne and play lampard alongside 2 CMs, Ramires to hassle and go forward, Mikel to sit back.
I think he expected Lampard+Ramires with an attacking mid dropping deep to be enough to have parity in possession and create chances for his fast attacking outlets. Didnt happen as we just didnt let them have enough of the ball in those areas. The high pressing was a big factor too.
Cleverley has started suffering from the same as Fletcher did for a few years, whilst learning the game. Getting the fans on his back because he is not already a world class player.
He had a good game vs Chelsea. His season can only get better
He didnt lack any of that last night. He won the ball more than Carrick while being more involved on the ball too
While Cleverley still isn't showing the sort of controlled drive that he's capable of, as we know from some of what we saw from him in 2011/12, it is unfair to pretend he was somehow below average last night.
Chelsea played 4-6-0, flooding midfield with an eye to nicking a goal. Cleverley and Carrick were faced by a bunch of nippy, energetic midfielders who started the game closing down like Border Collies on a sheep farm and they stood up to the test. If Cleverley was as limited as some seem to be suggesting he'd have been bustled out of the game leaving Carrick exposed to the 6 man midfield onslaught. That didn't happen.
As a matter of fact Clev has played alongside Carrick in all the big games over the past year and his level only really dropped after the psychological blow of the Madrid home tie in the Champions League.
Let's give the guy some slack. He's years away from his peak. At Cleverley's age Arteta, whose absence is regarded as a key reason for Arsenal's so-so start, was moving to Everton after struggling at Sociedad. Players can get better. Give the guy a chance.
Chelsea played 4-6-0, flooding midfield with an eye to nicking a goal. Cleverley and Carrick were faced by a bunch of nippy, energetic midfielders who started the game closing down like Border Collies on a sheep farm and they stood up to the test. If Cleverley was as limited as some seem to be suggesting he'd have been bustled out of the game leaving Carrick exposed to the 6 man midfield onslaught. That didn't happen.
As a matter of fact Clev has played alongside Carrick in all the big games over the past year and his level only really dropped after the psychological blow of the Madrid home tie in the Champions League.
Let's give the guy some slack. He's years away from his peak. At Cleverley's age Arteta, whose absence is regarded as a key reason for Arsenal's so-so start, was moving to Everton after struggling at Sociedad. Players can get better. Give the guy a chance.
And at 24 Michael Carrick was doing alright but hardly setting the world alight at Spurs, too.
Exactly and the list goes on e.g. Zvonimir Boban, an incredible player, was at 24 being loaned to Bari by Milan. Some people need to show patience. Not everyone is awesome at 21.
good observations lads. Think our Tom is going to be a top player for us. Moyes will use him correctly.
He was excellent yesterday. If he can do that in a more consistent basis, then a possible injury to Carrick wouldn't be the end of the world for us. I was surprised yesterday at how good Cleverley was defensively and how good was at reading the game.
Thought he was good yesterday, said before that when he has to play a tactical disciplined role, his style actually comes of well, his touch, calmness and comfort under pressure let us ensure we can pass our way out of trouble.
It was interesting to see what would happen with him. Right in the early moments of the game he was going to try and make a run down the right side, going around Valencia and checked, which was good to see. That's what he does too much off at the moment, trying to move down the flanks when he just needs to stay in the middle and let the wingers/full backs sort that out between them.
Passing wise I thought it was a bit of a mix. He was always neat and tidy, as he usually is but there were definitely moments where his lack of either wanting or being able to play a tougher pass slowed us down. You could certainly hear some of the crowd frustration a few times when we had a lot of players forward but he opted to pass it sideways/back. Keeping the ball is important but you have to try something now and again.
He did have a few more ambitious passes, hopefully it's something he will grow into. Like I've said before his ability to keep the ball is great but he needs to do a bit more then that. It really felt that we could have used a bit more creativity in there and whilst Clev defended well there still not enough strength in the middle to allow us to take a risk with someone like Kagawa in there and so the creativity is going to take a hit if he's not doing more from there.
But on the whole it was a good performance, personally I think it would be a big step if Clev could keep his positioning as it was yesterday, even if he keeps with a more conservative passing approach for now. Him staying more central, closer to Carrick makes a big difference for us defensively. At the moment he tries to make angles outwide far too much. But still if he can perform like this against Liverpool we'll have a good chance of getting a win there.
It was interesting to see what would happen with him. Right in the early moments of the game he was going to try and make a run down the right side, going around Valencia and checked, which was good to see. That's what he does too much off at the moment, trying to move down the flanks when he just needs to stay in the middle and let the wingers/full backs sort that out between them.
Passing wise I thought it was a bit of a mix. He was always neat and tidy, as he usually is but there were definitely moments where his lack of either wanting or being able to play a tougher pass slowed us down. You could certainly hear some of the crowd frustration a few times when we had a lot of players forward but he opted to pass it sideways/back. Keeping the ball is important but you have to try something now and again.
He did have a few more ambitious passes, hopefully it's something he will grow into. Like I've said before his ability to keep the ball is great but he needs to do a bit more then that. It really felt that we could have used a bit more creativity in there and whilst Clev defended well there still not enough strength in the middle to allow us to take a risk with someone like Kagawa in there and so the creativity is going to take a hit if he's not doing more from there.
But on the whole it was a good performance, personally I think it would be a big step if Clev could keep his positioning as it was yesterday, even if he keeps with a more conservative passing approach for now. Him staying more central, closer to Carrick makes a big difference for us defensively. At the moment he tries to make angles outwide far too much. But still if he can perform like this against Liverpool we'll have a good chance of getting a win there.
They didn't have very good games at all, Carrick in particular. They were pretty good defensively, particularly Cleverley, but they just didn't trouble Chelsea in the attacking third. Jose set up to play on the counter, exactly how anyone would expect in Moyes' first home match with plenty to prove.
I keep hearing how we supposedly dominated possession but 54-46 is hardly dominating. Plus it's what you do with that possession that truly counts. Chelsea were comfortable in allowing United the ball in deeper areas, where most of the possession was gained.
when he missed with the shot at goal, I was think Scholes in his heyday would have put that in. 
I saw it differently. I thought both had very good games without being exceptional specially going forward. Chelsea didnt have the ball in the final third for any considerable period of time. It was just us keeping the ball, moving it around and trying to make things happen. The lack of the final ball was the only thing that resulted in the draw, thought we were comfortably the better side.
Ok fair enough, but just moving the ball around without doing anything threatening with it doesn't equate to "a very good game" in my view. You only have to look at what Fabregas has done in his first few games for Barca to see why Moyes needs someone of his quality. He has been comfortably their best player so far, an absolute gem of a midfielder. Look at his contribution to see the difference and you will understand why I don't agree with you.
Fabregas is on entirely different level to Clev. The gulf is huge. If fabregas was in our team, he'd have a lot of responsibility to create things. That's not Clev's role. He acts as the link up guy. Keeping thing moving and tidy. The creative onus in on our front 4 who didnt do much. Our CMs are rarely the one playing the killer final ball. Carrick does it occasionally.
I'm sorry but you need to be creative even when you are a carrier, as Cleverley apparently is. Keeping things tidy does not equate to having "a very good game." That is where we differ here. You believe that is all he needs to do to have a very good game, I believe he needs to do more. It isn't about playing a killer final ball, it is about making the most of the possession you have and they didn't do that on Monday night.
Depends on the opposition mate. If it was a weaker team, I wouldnt call that performance very good. But against Chelsea, it was. Both him and Carrick did very well defensively (something you said yourself) and did a good job of getting the ball to the front 4. They werent offensively inclined themselves and understandably so.
Again we differ. I don't equate the quality of performance to who United are playing....and if anything they need to play even better against a top team. I said Cleverley had done well defensively, but lets be honest, against a team set up as negatively as Chelsea were that isn't difficult. Tom struggles when teams press us higher up the pitch, they never did that once.
They didn't do a good enough job getting the ball to the front four, that was the problem. Rooney and Welbeck were constantly coming deep to get involved and move the play into the attacking third. If they were not offensively inclined then what the hell are they doing on the pitch? Do we need two anchor men all of a sudden? If Carrick is staying at the base then Cleverley needs to move the ball (and himself) forward more than he did. There were a couple of occasions when he did and it looked promising, but not enough overall.
What I meant was that it's to be expected that he wont be as attacking as he would be if we were playing a weaker team specially given Chelsea's 3 top AMs. Both him and carrick were more cautious than usual. Its the difference in role they'd be given depending on the level of opposition, its something to be expected.
If rumors of us being close to signing Fellaini are true, we'l be actually seeing a more defensive middle 2. Something I dont think we need in majority of the games.
About Tom? Since when?
Well last season and the one before it for sure. Hey. believe me I'd love nothing more than Tom to be the player I think he can be but we've seen a few false dawns at this club.
TBH I don't remember anyone having any expectations about Cleverely's start to a season. I instead remembering him shocking everyone then getting broken vs Bolton and not quite returning to that form again that season and then having an injury hit year ala Anderson last term.
Fellaini is hardly that defensive minded.
Nor is Carrick.
What was the season he came on in the charity shield and then we had an amazing spell of attacking football with him central to it?
Indeed
I agree that Clev could be looking to do more with the ball, if Carrick is the main defensive man than Cleveley has to offer more in an attacking context and he needs to be able to do it without vacating the middle too much which seems to be be his main method.
But I would say personally that I thought Carrick and Clev weren't the issue it was the two wingers that were the bigger problem. Both were excellent defensively but Welbeck offered no creativity and fluffed the chances he got, Valencia worked hard and when there was lots of space to exploit he generally tried too but too often when Chelsea weren't being caught on the counter, as with last season he opted to not try and take someone on and passed it to Jones instead. We had a lot of good possession come to nothing because of that.
The midfield 2 were pre-occupied with having 3 Chelsea players all tucking in, making smart runs and then having the striker dropping off as well. As I said I think it was fair enough that they were ensuring it was quite tight and so needed to be conservative, although think Clev could have been more ambitous with his passing but really it was the lack of any real creativity from the wide areas, especially with the fullbacks both not really being at their best attackingly either.
Cleverley? It was in 2011.
The start of the 2011 season. He came on at half time against City. We were 2 nil down and then he was involved in this goal.
After that we went on a run of playing amazing football, but we were very vulnerable at the back. Iirc we had a 3-3 with Chelsea in that period. Tom was one of the main reasons for the good football we played.
I believe it was the Charity Sheild of Summer 2011, which then lead to him playing such football in the early stages of 11/12 (until Kevin Davies injured him
). The 3-2 you're on about, though, is from the 12/13 season - Van Persie scored in that, did he not? In 11/12, we beat Chelsea 3-1 at OT (part of our early season streak of great football) & drew 3-3 away.Edit: Misread your post as saying 3-2, when you actually typed 3-3! Indeed, we did have a 3-3 with Chelsea in 11/12, however, Cleverley was absent for that match (injured, the match was in the second half of the season, around Feb).
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