This. I don't think he's that bad a player at all and he's got a while to improve on his game, he's pretty young for a centre mid yet.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
- Start date
- Status
This. I don't think he's that bad a player at all and he's got a while to improve on his game, he's pretty young for a centre mid yet.
You are mental. Wilshere has been by far the better player. It's just obvious.
Wilshere is valued conservatively at £55m because he's the best talent in England. £18m for Cleverley? Do me a favour.
Can you read? Prove it to me by reading my post again and actually responding to the points I make in it.Tbf, Wilshere is just on a different level to Cleverley. He'd be worth at least double of whatever Cleverley might be worth.
You say the difference isn't that large. That's just delusion. The ceilings are clearly hugely different. Wilshere's is the whispering gallery at St Paul's whilst Cleverley's is Churchill's war rooms.
£18m for Cleverley is just so laughable it's beyond response.
You're a funny bastard, Alastair. I like you.
Hence, if Alastair thinks Wilshere is worth £55m... £18m.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't about me not rating Wilshere - I'm a massive fan, one of the few amongst here who still rates him on a par with or above both Thiago and Gundogan. But to laugh at the idea that Cleverley is worth less than a third of Wilshere's value can only indicate either massive gooner bias or typical caf 'grass is greener' mania.
There was a time when people were comparing him to Iniesta.
Ỳeah, in recent memory.
I think that was more style wise, then quality wise. And actually all stemmed from Cleverley saying he would like to model his game on the likes of Scholes and Iniesta.
You're so laughable you're beyond response, to be honest. You think Wilshere is worth £55m but Cleverley isn't worth £18m?
Here are some players who have gone for £15-£18m in recent seasons:
Andy Carroll
Jack Rodwell
Jordan Henderson
Javi Garcia
Joe Allen
Ashley Young
Comprende?
If you're at a top club moving down, you don't go for £18m.
All those players have moved 'up.'
Wilshere isnt worth 3 times as much as Cleverley. Exact figures are pretty meaningless as too many factors decide that.
He's right.
Again, you obviously didn't read my original post:
But if we're using 'value' as a measure of how good a player is, then it's only fair to judge Cleverley's outside of the 'United selling' context, since we mostly only sell past-it players (Beckhams/Ronaldos and Pogbas aside).
After all, you're basing your price for Wilshere on a better club like Barcelona, Madrid or United coming in for him, not on what you'd get for him if you gave up and shipped him off to Sunderland.
I'm basing my price for Wilshere as I do because he would be going to Barcelona. Tom Cleverley isn't. I think you just vastly overrate your players.
Saying you'd have him in over those two is hardly a vote of confidence. Also tells you where the squad is in terms of midfield. Especially compared to City and Chelsea.
If you have specific situations in mind, then using prices as an estimation of quality clearly isn't going to work. The point is, as a few people have now agreed, Wilshere is not worth more than three times what Cleverley is. To think so is to underrate Cleverley.
It amazes me that someone can watch Arsenal every game and still have so little clue how midfield works. Fellaini a better option next to Carrick than Cleverley...
If you have specific situations in mind, then using prices as an estimation of quality clearly isn't going to work. The point is, as a few people have now agreed, Wilshere is not worth more than three times what Cleverley is. To think so is to underrate Cleverley.
It amazes me that someone can watch Arsenal every game and still have so little clue how midfield works. Fellaini a better option next to Carrick than Cleverley...
He is worth at least three times Cleverley. I hate to inform you of this but it's true.
If you were offered £12m you'd take it. Not now, but if you signed some actual midfield quality. We'd never accept £36m for Wilshere.
It was this very midfield that won us the league this season. Chelsea's hasn't changed, and City have only added Fernandinho.
The issue is more to do with depth than quality.
Yeah, if "good enough to win the league" is the standard we're going for. If we want to have a midfield that's as good as the likes of Barca, Bayern and Real then we need to add both depth and quality.
Disagree on both points.
I remember Fletcher completely dominating you lot in the CL before a ludicrous red card. Before his illness took full fold Fletcher was an incredibly under-rated player.
I think Cleverley is aswell, He never does anything spectacular, but he presses hard every game, rarely gives possession away cheaply, has great control and 1-2 touch passing. He's the perfect person you want in the middle keeping things ticking over.
In terms of England I can see a midfield of Cleverley / Wilshere being a brilliant combination because Cleverley would allow Wilshere to express himself and go forward and create things while he'd always be the safe option available for a pass or to set up the quick counter attack. Wilshere is the better talent and you'd be mad to argue otherwise but you need people like Cleverley to allow him to make the most of his talent. You'd never say Makelele was the most talented footballer in the Chelsea squad but he allowed those with the attacking fair to do their thing. I see Cleverley doing the same thing for England with Wilshere.
At least the quoted fee for Jordan Henderson. English and young and playing for United.
A valuation for the player and his utilities with all other outside valuation aside (club, need, want, sugar daddy etc) he wouldn't go for much under the 13-17m much like Henderson.
The club could easily hold out for 20m if they wanted to ship him imo. But that of course is not going to happen so I would value him as priceless.
Like you'd never accept £30 million for Fabregas, or £24 million for Van Persie?
The upside of not landing Fabregas this summer is being able to land Wilshere next summer. And let's not kid ourselves -- Arsenal will go trophyless once again and there's even a fair chance they'll miss out on the top four. Get a good at Jack now while you can, gooners.
Yeah I'd accept that. I guess last year we all changed our priorities to ensure we got the league back.
Sadly I don't see how we can strengthen the squad sufficiently to get on that next level. Fergie seemed to be like an extra signing at times, getting the best out of what he had. Hard to say that Moyes will do that. But say we sign Modric, will that put us in with a shout of winning the CL? Not for me.
If Fellaini and Cleverley were both at United, do people honestly believe that Cleverley would start/play more games than him?
The game doesn't really work if you just assume that if Cleverley were to leave then it'd be to 'move down a level'.
Cleverley is nowhere near the point of being given up on and moved down a level. And whilst it's highly improbable that we would sell him to another top club, the "what is he worth" game doesn't work if you rule that eventuality out. Otherwise you're just playing "what would United sell Cleverley for if they gave up on him and he wanted to move to a mid-table team for a guaranteed starting XI place". And that's before you take into account that the transfer fee is highly dependent on the number of years remaining on the players' contract.
Also I'd say he's worth about 15ish whilst Wilshere's worth around 40 or over, around 3 times the price.
Disagree with you Liam on you saying quality isn't the issue.
Disagree with you Liam on you saying quality isn't the issue.
Oh it turned out to be a wum. Nicely played Al.
good post. Cleverly is still improving. He will be an England regular soon.
Surprised by the comments of many in here to be honest.
I thought he had a solid game yesterday, sure there was no 'highlight reel' moments but he kept the ball moving and maintained possession well.
I've always been a big fan after watching him and Welbeck come through from the reserves, I love it when they are both in the team as they work together really well. Sure they both need to improve on aspects of their individual games but I'd say if they are both given a run of games then they will both move up a level this season.
Sure he's no Thiago or Fabregas but if we don't sign a 'world class' CM (there aren't that many available) then I'd much rather see Cleverley get a run in midfield than someone like Jones.
I thought he had a solid game yesterday, sure there was no 'highlight reel' moments but he kept the ball moving and maintained possession well.
I've always been a big fan after watching him and Welbeck come through from the reserves, I love it when they are both in the team as they work together really well. Sure they both need to improve on aspects of their individual games but I'd say if they are both given a run of games then they will both move up a level this season.
Sure he's no Thiago or Fabregas but if we don't sign a 'world class' CM (there aren't that many available) then I'd much rather see Cleverley get a run in midfield than someone like Jones.
Most people aren't argue that, he's usually pretty solid in midfield, he just never does anything particularly great.
Pretty much my opinion of him too. I like him alot but his game seems to be based on pure energy off the ball. Pressing, chasing, closing down, but when on the ball, I don't think he does anything which really sets him apart. His shooting is erratic, his passing is okay, I don't think I've seen him play a successful cross. He's relatively 'neat and tidy' as everyone says, but I've always viewed that term as a diplomatic way of branding a footballer is very unremarkable. Saying a footballer is "neat and tidy" probably isn't much better than saying a footballer is "a fair bit better than Jonjo Shelvey". It's just something that should always be true for a United player.
After that loan spell at Watford, I expected him to develop into a goalscoring midfielder. He looked lively around the box and looked confident at lashing the ball at goal back then. Scored some nice goals, and his involvement with the attack was very exciting. I don't think that side of his game has developed as we'd hoped. He's still young, and still has time to develop, but that Watford spell was over 3 years ago. He obviously plays alot deeper now, and that's fine. He could well be an understudy to Carrick, but even at 24, Carrick possessed infinitely more composure and vision than our Tom, in my opinion.
To be fair, when he does unsuccessful crosses, they have a chance of being goals.
Happy 24th Thomas!
I think a thread name change is near in order.
I think a thread name change is near in order.
Nice, no wonder I like Clev!
Happy birthday Tom.
How many dispute we still need to strenghten in the midfield? I like Clevz, his movement and short passing is top notch however he still has a lot to learn and needs shooting lessons from Scholes. He's always trying to place/pass it in when it needs a laced shot. He's awareness is usually very good but rarely tries a risky pass or killer long pass. Good tidy player but no world beater!
- Status